Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

HawaiianEye said:
Damn! Sounds like you are a pro at it already. Maybe you should give CJ the same spot! :)

Nah...you wouldn't want to embarrass him like you did in that game...maybe you just better play him EVEN at 2F9B.
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No I'm not
I played a guy who was very old
No reason to try to learn a game Ill get to play 1 time
There are many games I'll play cj
 
CJ Wiley said:
Ok, I'll play you 9 Ball with the Two Shot Shoot Out rules for $50 a game anytime you want to come to Ft. Worth. I've made it plain I'm not traveling to play pool at this time.

If you want to play one foul on a 10' table we can play using a 20 second shot clock.

I will also play Rodney, Johnny, Earl, Mike Dechaine, Dennis Hatch, or any other American player the same way here in Ft. Worth. I'm willing to play, just won't bet real high or travel right now because my focus can't be on pool, it must stay on business.

This seems fair to me, and I assure you there are people here that will bet on me, I just can't speak for them obviously......this is Texas, there are plenty of gamblers.
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This is a fair offer

I know you like the 10 ft table
I have played 2 races to 9 on a 10 ft

I'll play you today's rules 10 ball on a 10ft table at dcc
 
I'll play forever basically, or at least give it a 50 game shot.

real bartram said:
This is a fair offer

I know you like the 10 ft table
I have played 2 races to 9 on a 10 ft

I'll play you today's rules 10 ball on a 10ft table at dcc
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I've not been to DCC (except the year I played Shane)....probably won't start this year, although Greg Sullivan did guarantee me a spot in the "Big Foot Tournament" this year, so maybe I'll make an exception. The real issue is the opening of the new Billiard Club, we're shooting for mid January for opening so I do have a potential conflict.

Anyone else (from the USA) is welcome to come to Ft. Worth Texas and play some TWO SHOT 9 Ball......and I'll play forever, or at least take a 50 game shot ( can't quit winner).
 
We are getting CLOSER folks!

I can't believe this thread has gone on as long as it has and now we are back to the original subject of a matchup between these two great players.

I wonder if it takes Bob Arum and Don King as long to set up fights as it does me to get a pool matchup going.

If it ever comes down to a game, I want a ringside seat at my laptop to watch! I don't know who the winner would be, but I'm sure it would be entertaining.
 
Can you explain this further

*Typically ALL balls spot, but we also played "only spot the ball before the money ball"....which was the usually the 9 ball unless there was a handicap involved, then it could be the ball before the 8 Ball, or 7 Ball, etc.


Also if you make a ball and scratch and there is a ball already on the spot does the lowest number ball go below the ball on the spot?
 
I have a feeling if this goes off, it will end up like his mandatory push idea. One match and done.
 
The Rules on Spotting Balls Playing SHOOT OUT 9 Ball

jamesroberts said:
Can you explain this further

*Typically ALL balls spot, but we also played "only spot the ball before the money ball"....which was the usually the 9 ball unless there was a handicap involved, then it could be the ball before the 8 Ball, or 7 Ball, etc.a - If all balls spot you would spot any ball that goes in the pocket on a roll out or a scratch.....if a ball's on the spot it would go behind that ball.


Also if you make a ball and scratch and there is a ball already on the spot does the lowest number ball go below the ball on the spot?
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If you are playing "all balls spot"' you would spot the ball behind any (other ball) on the spot....if you're playing "only spot the ball before the money ball" you would only spot it if it was the ball before the player's money ball that is shooting.......if this seems confusing, it's because of the "Bar Tables" - on these tables it was usually "ball before the money ball" because you couldn't simply get the balls out of the pockets....sometimes you had to put money back in the table, so they would just spot the one before the money....this was fair for both players, no big deal.
 
There's a LOT of action players around Ft. Worth these days

YubaCushion said:
I'd like to see it before the end of the year. Of he subject, what's that your doing to the floor?
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There's a LOT of action players around Ft. Worth these days and many people that will play one pocket and/or 9 Ball.
 
YubaCushion said:
I'd like to see it before the end of the year. Of he subject, what's that your doing to the floor?
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He's heating up the VCT (Vinyl Composition Tile). The heat re-activates the glue underneath making it much easier to remove the VCT. :smile:
 
I will assure everyone it used to be more.....much, much more than "just a game"....

jamesroberts said:
Can you explain this further

*Typically ALL balls spot, but we also played "only spot the ball before the money ball"....which was the usually the 9 ball unless there was a handicap involved, then it could be the ball before the 8 Ball, or 7 Ball, etc.


Also if you make a ball and scratch and there is a ball already on the spot does the lowest number ball go below the ball on the spot?
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Another thing that is SO much different about pool these days is the elimination of the "spot shot".....when's the last time anyone shot a "spot shot" in 9 Ball? Yes, you will still see it come up in One Pocket, and that reestablishes my original point.

When we really want 9 Ball to reach and surpass the strategic difficulty of One Pocket we must uniformly change the rules back to 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and marketing magical will happen.... the world's "real" eyes will be opened to what the game of pocket billiards is all about....it may be "just a game" these days, but I will assure everyone it used to be more.....much, much more than "just a game"......allow me to elaborate:

Many of us growing up were introduced to the game through Minnesota Fats, Willie Mosconi, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Steve Mizerak. Then we had the opportunity to watch 'The Hustler' with Jackie Gleason and Paul Newman.....the 'The Color of Money' with Tom Cruise, Keith McCready and Paul Newman once again.

We found adventure, and entertainment in these characters......Pocket Billiards was no longer "just a game with a wooden stick," it was Transformed into an "Art Form with Colorful Cues, and Passionate Characters".....and for many of us it became a way of life, and the Game became our escape, our adventure, and our teacher....introducing us to many people, taking us many places and allowing us to do many things.

All because of "just a game with a wooden stick".......just like baseball with "just a bat and a ball," or any other sport with just a ball and a field, a diamond, a court, or a course.

"It's not the steak that's memorable, it's the presentation and the sizzle" ....and so it is with the Game of pool - just a stone, or a precious jewel. 'The Game is the Inner Teacher'
 
I can agree with the "something needs to change", in this game. I really don't care for the one foul in 9 ball. It's more suited to 8 ball because there are more opportunities to get out of the trap with more balls to kick towards. Hence, less ball in hand opportunities, less safety play, more offense and strategy.

The two shot 9 ball I played was an aggressive game. You brought it or you lost. You never worried about missing much of the time. Because your strategy was to play a leave on the next ball that gave your opponent a tough shot if you dogged it. Even now, if I miss and leave a shot, I know it was a big miss.

I know TE can be played this way, but is it? Wouldn't the safety be paramount instead of going for the shot? Ducking to get BIH is like not playing against an opponent. You could lock up Efren and be in the same situation as playing any banger. In two shot, the great player will challenge your safe with an equally tough roll out. The banger will just roll to open space to hit the next ball.

If one pocket is a desirable game for top players, why not play 9 ball on the same level? Why let it lose its strategy and dumb it down? I think going for the shot is lots more interesting than watching a safety battle. Unless it's two top players, it's a crap shoot.

Is TE all about speeding up the game and increasing the amount of run outs? It seems to have the opposite effect when I play it or watch it. Shoot some balls and duck. When's the last time you saw somebody break out a ball and continue to run out? Too risky in one foul. It's easier to get BIH to do it. Most matches I play are so guarded, nobody even banks a ball unless it's a lock at a two way shot.

I played a tourney last year and ran out a rack by banking in my first shot, breaking out a ball, and banking another shot. The reason I remember the run was because my opponent was kind enough to compliment me on the banking part. He said I was the best banker he'd seen in the tournament. I thanked him and asked how could he know that? Had anyone banked a ball up to that point? And would anyone bank instead of duck? smilie_tra_164.gif

Best,
Mike
 
The commentary for "One Foul" is as dull as the game because all they can do is......

Mikjary said:
I can agree with the "something needs to change", in this game. I really don't care for the one foul in 9 ball. It's more suited to 8 ball because there are more opportunities to get out of the trap with more balls to kick towards. Hence, less ball in hand opportunities, less safety play, more offense and strategy.

The two shot 9 ball I played was an aggressive game. You brought it or you lost. You never worried about missing much of the time. Because your strategy was to play a leave on the next ball that gave your opponent a tough shot if you dogged it. Even now, if I miss and leave a shot, I know it was a big miss.

I know TE can be played this way, but is it? Wouldn't the safety be paramount instead of going for the shot? Ducking to get BIH is like not playing against an opponent. You could lock up Efren and be in the same situation as playing any banger. In two shot, the great player will challenge your safe with an equally tough roll out. The banger will just roll to open space to hit the next ball.

If one pocket is a desirable game for top players, why not play 9 ball on the same level? Why let it lose its strategy and dumb it down? I think going for the shot is lots more interesting than watching a safety battle. Unless it's two top players, it's a crap shoot.

Is TE all about speeding up the game and increasing the amount of run outs? It seems to have the opposite effect when I play it or watch it. Shoot some balls and duck. When's the last time you saw somebody break out a ball and continue to run out? Too risky in one foul. It's easier to get BIH to do it. Most matches I play are so guarded, nobody even banks a ball unless it's a lock at a two way shot.

I played a tourney last year and ran out a rack by banking in my first shot, breaking out a ball, and banking another shot. The reason I remember the run was because my opponent was kind enough to compliment me on the banking part. He said I was the best banker he'd seen in the tournament. I thanked him and asked how could he know that? Had anyone banked a ball up to that point? And would anyone bank instead of duck? View attachment 301622

Best,
Mike
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You, Mike, obviously know what you're talking about and have played a great deal of "Two Shot Shoot Out' (sometimes called two shot push out/rollout). We can tell in 17 seconds if someone has really played it or not, and you definitely are knowledgeable.

The biggest mistake in changing the entire 9 Ball tournament game to "One Foul" was that suddenly the player got rewarded for playing safe and "ducking". This encouraged what we now see as a very dull, boring game that no one wants to watch. When the opposite COULD be true and with the "Two Shot" rules the player is rewarded for making difficult shots, breaking balls out, and running impossible racks because there's NO OTHER CHOICE......playing safe only prolongs the game, it does not lead to an easy shot.....quite the contrary playing players that are advanced in strategic knowledge.

We can either keep doing the same thing, playing the same rules or we can change the game and do a complete turnaround. This would cause a chain reaction that would also lead to a complete turn around in the entire industry. I have hinted at some of the advantages of using the 'Two Shot Shoot Out' rules, however there are many more that are even more advantageous when it comes to commentary.

The commentary for "One Foul" is as dull as the game because all they can do is try to predict the next shot.....this is like movie critic sitting beside you at the movies trying to predict what's going to happen in the next scene.......how long could you stand that??? I have a feeling you would never return to that movie theater if you knew you had to deal with that aggravation.

Nothing against the commentators, they just have nothing to work with in the game of "One Foul".....either the player tries to play safe or tries to run out, that's ALL THERE IS TO IT.

In Two Shot Shoot Out there is thousands of potential strategic situations and the player will control this situation. They won't have to conform to a game that is by nature dull, boring and monotonous....they will suddenly be free to show their true skill, knowledge and shot making abilities in an incredibly interesting strategy game. 'That Game is the Teacher' and the "general public" will be suddenly enticed to be a student.

The solution is very simple, very easy.

I know what many are thinking "there's got to be a more difficult and complicated way to succeed"....the answer is simply "no," this is the foundation of the entire solution.

'The Inner Game is the Teacher'
 
Maybe I am just not catching on. I believe Mr. Wiley stated something like. If a player A pushed to a jump shot. Player A would be on one foul. Player B (Mr. Wiley) would just take his first foul and push basically to another safety taking away the jump shot. Now both players would be on one foul. Player A would have to make a legal hit or it would be ball in hand. I believe in the kitchen. I might be totally wrong but I think player B would almost always play a better safe in hopes of getting ball in hand. Unless he would not have a shot from the kitchen. My understanding is that it promoted as creating more offense. My thinking is, it just promotes more defense. Wouldn't player B almost always try to play a lockdown defense in hopes of getting ball in hand. I just don't see why player B would jump, bank or kick at a shot when he can just lock player A up again. Granted he may just make player A shoot again but only if he thinks he has a good chance of getting ball in hand.
 
jburkm002 said:
Maybe I am just not catching on. I believe Mr. Wiley stated something like. If a player A pushed to a jump shot. Player A would be on one foul. Player B (Mr. Wiley) would just take his first foul and push basically to another safety taking away the jump shot. Now both players would be on one foul. Player A would have to make a legal hit or it would be ball in hand. I believe in the kitchen. I might be totally wrong but I think player B would almost always play a better safe in hopes of getting ball in hand. Unless he would not have a shot from the kitchen. My understanding is that it promoted as creating more offense. My thinking is, it just promotes more defense. Wouldn't player B almost always try to play a lockdown defense in hopes of getting ball in hand. I just don't see why player B would jump, bank or kick at a shot when he can just lock player A up again. Granted he may just make player A shoot again but only if he thinks he has a good chance of getting ball in hand.
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After player B makes their safe, player A pushes out of the safety leave. There's no reward for playing the safety except to escape from a tough/bad roll out by either you or your opponent.

You want to push out to a spot on the table where you can either pocket the ball and play two way position (hiding the ball you may have just missed), or move balls into a tougher pattern while baiting your opponent to take a flyer with low percentage shot.

You can play for two consecutive fouls by the same player which means two shots in a row by them. If the player pushes and their opponent pushes, too, the first player's off of their one foul status and the second player to push is on one foul. IOW, if a player pushes and gets re-pushed by their opponent, they are off of one foul. That's two consecutive fouls in a row.

The reason I played this way is simply that if I pushed and my opponent took the shot and made a few balls, I was technically still on one foul. Later in the game, I couldn't push out or foul without BIH for them. All they had to do was push and bury the cue ball and I would have no chance of hitting the next object ball. So, two consecutive fouls means two in a row.

Best,
Mike
 
@ HAWAIIAN, REAL BARTRAM, & CJ, et al -

- i hate to burst yáll's bubble, but i solved this thread's equation last night & no need for a Match....

i shot w/ TOI, and NO AIMING SYSTEM, combined (no alcohol was involved)
and came in 3rd (to KK9)
only to lose to
THE SECRET ART OF POOL



.
 
PINKLADY said:
- i hate to burst yáll's bubble, but i solved this thread's equation last night & no need for a Match....

i shot w/ TOI, and NO AIMING SYSTEM, combined (no alcohol was involved)
and came in 3rd (to KK9)
only to lose to
THE SECRET ART OF POOL



.
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Ain't enuf crack in the world to burst that bubble, is there? I'm off the road with you woman. Howmyi sposed to make a living? ;) You were amazing last nite (on the table)
 
The "ball in hand" is anywhere on the table,just like "One Foul" except on a scratch

jburkm002 said:
Maybe I am just not catching on. I believe Mr. Wiley stated something like. If a player A pushed to a jump shot. Player A would be on one foul. Player B (Mr. Wiley) would just take his first foul and push basically to another safety taking away the jump shot. Now both players would be on one foul. Player A would have to make a legal hit or it would be ball in hand. I believe in the kitchen. I might be totally wrong but I think player B would almost always play a better safe in hopes of getting ball in hand. Unless he would not have a shot from the kitchen. My understanding is that it promoted as creating more offense. My thinking is, it just promotes more defense. Wouldn't player B almost always try to play a lockdown defense in hopes of getting ball in hand. I just don't see why player B would jump, bank or kick at a shot when he can just lock player A up again. Granted he may just make player A shoot again but only if he thinks he has a good chance of getting ball in hand.
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The "ball in hand" is anywhere on the table, it's only "in the kitchen" if a player scratches. If the next ball is in the kitchen on a scratch it spots up and the incoming player has a "spot shot" or can pass the shot back to the one that scratched and they're on "1 Foul".

We just gave a two hour demonstration on 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and I forgot how mentally stimulating it is to play.For the first time in awhile I went into a deep mental zone, and I haven't experienced that in many years, one foul rules simply don't test the mental side of pool like 'Two Shot Shoot Out' does......there's no question it's more demanding.

I played Vernon Elliot a 12 hour session of SHOOT OUT on a bar table (when I was 19 in Indianapolis at Tommy Staton's bar), and remember being in "a fog" for several hours after the match. The constant evaluating shots, percentages and push outs is many, many times more strenuous mentally than One Foul.

The shots are definitely more demanding than One Pocket as well (because of all the long, off the end rail shots), and I look forward to playing this game more and more.

There's a group of players in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area that want to start playing it more, and maybe I'll video one of our sessions, it would be very interesting to those that want to learn more about this fascinating game.
 
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