Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[BeiberLvr]

I gave this some more thought recently, and I really don't think switching to these rules would achieve what you're going after.

You say playing shoot out would involve more strategy and the elimination of safety play would be good for the game. The fact is that all of the top players today are so much more aggressive and better shot makers than the top players 20 or 30 years ago.

At the end of the day, the game is still all about running out.

I also really hate the fact how you can completely dismiss the strategy and skill behind playing safe, but that's just something we'll never agree on.

 

[Rusty C]

The "ball in hand" is anywhere on the table, it's only "in the kitchen" if a player scratches. If the next ball is in the kitchen on a scratch it spots up and the incoming player has a "spot shot" or can pass the shot back to the one that scratched and they're on "1 Foul".

We just gave a two hour demonstration on 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and I forgot how mentally stimulating it is to play.For the first time in awhile I went into a deep mental zone, and I haven't experienced that in many years, one foul rules simply don't test the mental side of pool like 'Two Shot Shoot Out' does......there's no question it's more demanding.

I played Vernon Elliot a 12 hour session of SHOOT OUT on a bar table (when I was 19 in Indianapolis at Tommy Staton's bar), and remember being in "a fog" for several hours after the match. The constant evaluating shots, percentages and push outs is many, many times more strenuous mentally than One Foul.

The shots are definitely more demanding than One Pocket as well (because of all the long, off the end rail shots), and I look forward to playing this game more and more.

There's a group of players in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area that want to start playing it more, and maybe I'll video one of our sessions, it would be very interesting to those that want to learn more about this fascinating game.

I visited with Dave Matlock this weekend about 2 foul,he said it was the reason he quit trying to match up playing 9 ball,when the game went to 1 foul,at first he thought 1 foul was better for his game,because he played alot of billiards.But after playing 1 foul,he found out that he could'nt put pressure on his opponent.

He said sometimes he would roll out to play a safety,later in the match he might roll out to same shot and go for it.That type of style would put alot of heat on your opponent.

David played Buddy Hall a set that lasted 12 hours,where neither player got ball in hand the entire match.

 

[the420trooper]

I gave this some more thought recently, and I really don't think switching to these rules would achieve what you're going after.

You say playing shoot out would involve more strategy and the elimination of safety play would be good for the game. The fact is that all of the top players today are so much more aggressive and better shot makers than the top players 20 or 30 years ago.

At the end of the day, the game is still all about running out.

I also really hate the fact how you can completely dismiss the strategy and skill behind playing safe, but that's just something we'll never agree on.

That's why Chris Bartrum has been talking about never playing safe in 8 ball. Great players today are more aware of how good other players are, and you can't always afford to let a good player back to the table...

Even if you hook them, they don't have to sell out from there, so you are often forced to play a tough shot, because it's a better percentage play than letting someone who kicks great, kick at a ball.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Duplicate post'...

The good ship USS Coyote...

 

[SJDinPHX]

I visited with Dave Matlock this weekend about 2 foul,he said it was the reason he quit trying to match up playing 9 ball,when the game went to 1 foul,at first he thought 1 foul was better for his game,because he played alot of billiards.But after playing 1 foul,he found out that he could'nt put pressure on his opponent.

He said sometimes he would roll out to play a safety,later in the match he might roll out to same shot and go for it.That type of style would put alot of heat on your opponent.

David played Buddy Hall a set that lasted 12 hours,where neither player got ball in hand the entire match.

I did not know David well, but I have the greatest respect for him as a player, and a person. The next time you see him though, you might ask WHEN he and Buddy played that session !... If they were playing the original rules of two shot fouls, that is not surprising..Because the old way, you NEVER got ball in hand..ANYWHERE on the table..only in the kitchen !

Whether it was a scratch in the pocket, no rail, or whatever...If the incoming player did not like the shot, he could make you shoot again. It would rarely go over 2 shots, before someone liked their shot !...It was similar to snooker, except no balls (including the cue ball) were ever replaced !... Same thing, if you made a bad hit and hooked me, I could make you shoot again ! The 2 shot foul, BIH rule (same player, or different player)...that CJ is talking about, is a completely different game !

Example; If I scratched, you had ball in hand in the kitchen...If I had made the lowest numbered ball on the scratch, (or it was behind the line) and there happened to be a ball already on the spot..That would be one instance where you might want to make me shoot again..That is how 9 ball was played, almost everywhere from the late 40's on, until Texas Express came along... For a while, there was considerable "Rule" jockeying and adjusting, because NONE of the gambler's (including myself) liked Tex-Ex !

SJD

 

[SJDinPHX]

Another thing that is SO much different about pool these days is the elimination of the "spot shot".....when's the last time anyone shot a "spot shot" in 9 Ball? Yes, you will still see it come up in One Pocket, and that reestablishes my original point.

When we really want 9 Ball to reach and surpass the strategic difficulty of One Pocket we must uniformly change the rules back to 'Two Shot Shoot Out' and marketing magical will happen.... the world's "real" eyes will be opened to what the game of pocket billiards is all about ! <--Yes, painting by the number's, is certainly a 'magical' challenge alright.. (for a 3rd grader )

'The Game is the Inner Tube'

Dear Mr. Coyote,

It was gratifying to see, that in your second paragraph you finally admitted that 9ball has some distance to go, to reach the strategic level, much less SURPASS, that of One Pocket.

I wondered when you would finally see the light !..Sadly, no matter what rules you invent, (or resurrect)...9 ball will still be a "paint by the number's" game, that any trained orangutan can
become proficient at !.. One Pocket requires a much higher level of human logic, than the average
ape possesses...That is why we walk upright, drive cars, and have microwaves and such !

Let me say, it has been a pleasure working with you...You must have finally called Buddy or
someone, and 'real eyes'd' just how wrong you were !..I will say this, I always thought a coyote
was higher on the food chain, than the average gorilla !..Thank you for proving that point !

The good ship USS Coyote !..... (see post #1164)

 

[CJ Wiley]

You MUST run out to win and your safeties MUST be more strategic to get the key shot

I visited with Dave Matlock this weekend about 2 foul,he said it was the reason he quit trying to match up playing 9 ball,when the game went to 1 foul,at first he thought 1 foul was better for his game,because he played alot of billiards.But after playing 1 foul,he found out that he could'nt put pressure on his opponent.

He said sometimes he would roll out to play a safety,later in the match he might roll out to same shot and go for it.That type of style would put alot of heat on your opponent.

David played Buddy Hall a set that lasted 12 hours,where neither player got ball in hand the entire match.

Yes, that is the truth of the matter, Matlock nailed it and I'll bet Keith McCready would agree as well.

When you take the ball in hand out of the equation it becomes a much, much better game. You MUST run out to win and your safeties MUST be more strategic to get the first shot against players like Matlock, McCready and Buddy Hall.

I have no doubt that ever truly great player that as played both games (for big money) will say "Two Shot Shoot Out' is BY FAR the best way to bring about the best player" - it is more strategic, and requires the skills to be showcased in an intense, and entertaining way.

The only ones that won't agree are the players that have not played it for big money.

I only ask that they "empty their cup" and try it....the will certainly like it.

'The Game is Our Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

watching Matlock, McCready, Buddy Hall, and Omaha John play the game tremendously

Dear Mr. Coyote,

.Thank you for proving that point !

[B[/B]

It took a few posts, but 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is the one that proved the point, not me.

I had a two hour session with someone last night playing 'Two Shot' and I had not felt the Zone that deeply in many years. It brought back fond memories of playing SHOOT OUT with marathon players like Reid Pierce, Country Calvin, and watching Matlock, McCready, Buddy Hall, and Omaha John play the game at some of the highest levels I'd ever seen. They would play for hours and NO ONE would get ball in hand they played at such a tremendous level....you don't see that these days do you?

My first really big bar table tournament was in Clinton Iowa when I was 17 and I got to see all the truly great players like Sigel, Rempe, Mizerak, Hopkins, McCready, Hall, West, Jimmy Reid, Omaha John, Earl Strickland, Nick Varner, on and on and on.....

I miss those days, when men were men and two shot shoot out was the gambling game, one foul was looked down on and there was action in every town, city and state.

'The Game was Our Teacher'

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

In Two Shot Shoot Out there is thousands of potential strategic situations and the player will control this situation. They won't have to conform to a game that is by nature dull, boring and monotonous....they will suddenly be free to show their true skill, knowledge and shot making abilities in an incredibly interesting strategy game. 'That Game is the Teacher' and the "general public" will be suddenly enticed to be a student.

Thank God the future of professional pool does not hinge on your opinions.

My wife can be used as a perfect example of a pool-viewing "student". She has probably hit at the most a couple thousand balls in all the time we've been together, but she really does enjoy the game as a spectator. She's been to SBE with me, two Turning Stones, went down to NYC with me (her idea) just to see Earl (her favorite player) play in a scotch doubles event at Steinway, watched numerous PPVs (TAR, Accu-Stats, POV Pool, Big Truck, Bonus Ball, etc), and a shit load of matches on YouTube. When we have nothing to do and nothing to watch on TV, she'll often say, "Wanna watch some pool?"

Over the last several years, let's just say she's become a dedicated and increasingly knowledgable railbird (student?) So, what's her favorite game to watch? TE 9-ball.

Now, she won't much discriminate against 10-ball and she'll enjoy it fine, but she really likes the lucky/unlucky rolls that slop allows. She told me, "It's just like real life. Shit happens, and you have to learn to fade it." Interesting perspective.

I can get her to watch just so much 14.1 because she thinks it's a boring game (although she always wants to play 14.1 against me over 8 or 9 ball because she like at least "gets some points" for her efforts lol). So, when we watch straight pool, I allow her to multi-task (i.e. FaceBook, catch up on e-mails, look at recipes online, etc.)

But ask her about one-pocket and her eyes just glaze over. So far, she's watched DCC streams, Accu-Stats "Make-It-Happen", SVB vs. Efren, and SVB vs. Corey this weekend. She still doesn't have a clue. Hell, I still don't have a clue. One-hole is a damn hard game to understand for anybody who doesn't play it.

So, here you are, almost 300 posts into a thread trying to convince us that "Two Shot Shoot Out" is harder and infinitely more complicated than One-pocket, but THIS is the game the American public is going to embrace, and in doing so, rescue pool.

?????

Ah, that's right.... it's all about "character development". :grin:

I think you flipped that 16-pound shot put into your head a few too many times if you ask me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Will Pro Pool Continue to do the Same Things?

Thank God the future of professional pool does not hinge on your opinions.

Professional Pool is doing just fine the direction it's been going in the last 13 years....maybe if they just continue doing the same things they will get different results.

 

[CJ Wiley]

maybe you should try if you like strategy and skill.

I also really hate the fact how you can completely dismiss the strategy and skill behind playing safe, but that's just something we'll never agree on.

You haven't played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' have you? The skill in playing safe is also much more profound than "One Foul".....maybe you should try if you like strategy and skill.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Professional Pool is doing just fine the direction it's been going in the last 13 years....maybe if they just continue doing the same things they will get different results.

Number one: Einstein never actually said that.

Number two: Nobody's saying pool is going in the right direction, only that you aren't the guy who's gonna be fixing it. Especially by resurrecting a long, tedious, and complicated game designed for experienced gamblers, instead of a simple and popular game the public can already grasp. Like 8-ball.

 

[SJDinPHX]

You, Mike, obviously know what you're talking about and have played a great deal of "Two Shot Shoot Out' (sometimes called two shot push out/rollout) <--finally, a willing accomplice :smile:.

The biggest mistake in changing the entire 9 Ball tournament game to "One Foul" was that suddenly the player got rewarded for playing safe and "ducking". This encouraged what we now see as a very dull, boring game that no one wants to watch. When the opposite COULD be true and with the "Two Shot" rules the player is rewarded for making difficult shots, breaking balls out, and running impossible racks because there's NO OTHER CHOICE......playing safe only prolongs the game, it does not lead to an easy shot.....quite the contrary playing players that are advanced in strategic knowledge.<--theres that phrase again

I have hinted at some of the advantages of using the 'Two Shot Shoot Out' rules, however there are many more that are even more advantageous when it comes to commentary. <--Oh, really ?

The commentary for "One Foul" is as dull as the game because all they can do is try to predict the next shot....This is like movie critic sitting beside you at the movies trying to predict what's going to happen in the next scene...how long could you stand that ?<--Not long !

Nothing against the commentators, they just have nothing to work with in the game of "One Foul".....either the player tries to play safe or tries to run out, that's ALL THERE IS TO IT. <--Its the same damn game Mr. C, just more complicated for the average viewer !

In Two Shot Shoot Out there is thousands of potential strategic situations and the player will control this situation. They won't have to conform to a game that is by nature dull, boring and monotonous....they will suddenly be free to show their true skill, knowledge and shot making abilities in an incredibly interesting strategy game.<--Are we still talking about 9 ball ? 'That Game is the Teacher' and the "general public" will be suddenly enticed to be a student.<--Or, we could have a lot of people drinking the Kool-Aid (ala "Jonestown") !

The solution is very simple, very easy.

I know what many are thinking "there's got to be a more difficult and complicated way to succeed"....the answer is simply "no," this is the foundation of the entire solution.

'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

Well, now that the big game has been tentively challenged and accepted. (I guess)..And the forum members are getting tired of the "one man media blitz" regarding the evils of Texas express vs. 2 foul 9 ball, maybe we can get back to the other burning question..That being, which game is more demanding, and challenging to learn..One Pocket, or 9 ball..with whatever set of rules you want sir !

I cannot believe the old Wil-ey guy has now even dared to make a comparison of the two games, from the standpoint of commentating ?.,If he thinks he was in trouble simply trying to compare the two games, wait until I torpedo his boat, on the subject of "Commentating" 9ball vs One Pocket ! Lets assume, the only people watching (amateur to pro) will enjoy a good battle of wits !

There are only a handful, of good qualified commentators capable of keeping a streaming audience well informed, as to whats going on..While filling the gaps, with interesting conversation and stories...There seems to be a ton of them, who act like they have never seen a game of pool (any kind) played in their life, and boy it don't take long to tell them apart, does it

The latter group of misfit's, (no names of course) should be reserved for "9 ball Only".. As the only requirement is, (1)..they MUST be able to count from 1 to 9 and (2).. they must be able to say.."Wow, what a shot"!... To which their 'color man' will say "Geez, it sure was" !..Obviously their only other duty, will be to keep the viewer informed as to the score of the match, which they NEVER seem to bother with.

Fortunately, the job of commentating a one pocket match, requires an IQ much higher than Mike Tyson's ! (he can't read, can he ? )...There are only a half dozen or so guy's that qualify, and they usually work in tandem !..Billy Incardona is one of the best, and he usually hooks up with another good one, Freddy the Beard, or Danny Dilaberto..Jay Helfert is also a good one, who works well with Joey Augizin (sp) All these guy's will usually (when available) hook up with various top player's (JJ, Frost, or Hall, etc.)

This is where good commentating, and communicating becomes a real challenge at times..There are usually such a variety of options (in 1P) Billy and Freddy have, at times, came close to blows, and they get really pissed if the player in question, shoots the others shot choice ! It really doesn't matter if the guy executes it perfectly, and runs 8 and out !..Either one will swear he shot the WRONG shot !

I may be exaggerating just a bit. (but not much) The variety, and complexity of shots in One Pocket, so far outshine that of 9 ball (ANY rules) that even a novice should be able to see the difference.. Also, 1P, being a more deliberate game, allows for some enjoyable repartee, and story telling !..In 9 ball, you barely have time to 'bite off an ear', between games ! Avg. game time, same as a round of boxing. (3 mins.) :wink:

I'm sure the Coyote will find a way to defend this HUGE disparity in the two games, from a commentating viewpoint, but, once again there is NO comparison...Even straight pool commentary, is much more interesting than 9 ball ! (if you can stay awake) :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

 

[the420trooper]

Number one: Einstein never actually said that.

"Quotes found on the internet are often completely fabricated."

-Julius Caesar

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

"Quotes found on the internet are often completely fabricated."

-Julius Caesar

Caesar said that? I never knew, I thought it was Al Gore.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Number one: Einstein never actually said that.

Number two: Nobody's saying pool is going in the right direction, only that you aren't the guy who's gonna be fixing it. Especially by resurrecting a long, tedious, and complicated game designed for experienced gamblers, instead of a simple and popular game the public can already grasp. Like 8-ball.

You are exactly right on target there, sir !..I tried to convince my 'homie's (Scott Frost, and Fast Lenny)when they first told me about Bonus Ball, that if the promoters of BB had used 8 ball for their game, they might have had a fighting chance !..They had some good ideas,(a nice arena, city connected teams to root for, etc.) Their business model was a disaster, and they will NEVER make it in the pool business !..They set pool back 15-20 yrs., and pissed off ALL of our best tournament promoter's while doing it !

My first love is one pocket, but I KNOW it will never have mass appeal !..8 ball however, has been around forever..and EVERYBODY knows how to play it ! That includes every big co. CEO in charge of advertising $$$$ !(think about that)..With some very minor tweaking (for the pro's) it could be the ONLY game that has a prayer of gaining world-wide prominance..I wish Mr. Wiley could see that, and try and support a game that just might be what pool needs !.. 8 ball has 10 times better chance, of gaining national acceptance, than ANY form of 9 ball ever will...Sorry Wil-ey, that's just MHO ! :sorry:

PS..Us hardcore guy's, can always gamble among ourselves, at whatever game we want !..The pros don't mind playing 8 ball, as long as the $$$$ are there (remember IPT ?) And most of them play it pretty good too !..Plus, another added bonus 8 ball gives you Wil-ey..."TOI" will work as well as it does for any other game..!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Allen Hopkins in his prime and Efren are the only ones I would bet on....Allen used to bet he could run one out of 5 and would bust the pool room if they tried to fade that bet.

Allen is the one that showed me the "secret" to doing this consistently.....and without this knowledge I would not be able to do it......so thanks Allen, I know you don't read this forum, but maybe someone will tell you I've given credit where credit is due.

You're right -- I only got 1/2 of the info. I was using the correct spin, but hitting the wrong part of the rack.

Dave

 

[real bartram]

You are exactly right on target there, sir !..I tried to convince my 'homie's (Scott Frost, and Fast Lenny)when they first told me about Bonus Ball, that if the promoters of BB had used 8 ball for their game, they might have had a fighting chance !..They had some good ideas,(a nice arena, city connected teams to root for, etc.) Their business model was a disaster, and they will NEVER make it in the pool business !..They set pool back 15-20 yrs., and pissed off ALL of our best tournament promoter's while doing it !

My first love is one pocket, but I KNOW it will never have mass appeal !..8 ball however, has been around forever..and EVERYBODY knows how to play it ! That includes every big co. CEO in charge of advertising $$$$ !(think about that)..With some very minor tweaking (for the pro's) it could be the ONLY game that has a prayer of gaining world-wide prominance..I wish Mr. Wiley could see that, and try and support a game that just might be what pool needs !.. 8 ball has 10 times better chance, of gaining national acceptance, than ANY form of 9 ball ever will...Sorry Wil-ey, that's just MHO ! :sorry:

PS..Us hardcore guy's, can always gamble among ourselves, at whatever game we want !..The pros don't mind playing 8 ball, as long as the $$$$ are there (remember IPT ?) And most of them play it pretty good too !..Plus, another added bonus 8 ball gives you Wil-ey..."TOI" will work as well as it does for any other game..!

What is toi ?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Number one: Einstein never actually said that.

Number two: Nobody's saying pool is going in the right direction, only that you aren't the guy who's gonna be fixing it. Especially by resurrecting a long, tedious, and complicated game designed for experienced gamblers, instead of a simple and popular game the public can already grasp. Like 8-ball.

"Eight ball is too easy for professional players" - Einstein

 

[CJ Wiley]

When Allen Hopkins talks about pool I always listened very intently.

You're right -- I only got 1/2 of the info. I was using the correct spin, but hitting the wrong part of the rack.

Dave

What you were doing was logical, however, like many things in life it's often different than what appears "logical".

When Allen Hopkins talks about pool I always listened very intently......he taught me a lot and may not even realize how much I picked up from just engaging him in conversation.

He showed me something about one pocket on a 5/10' table that was incredible....I used it against Ronnie Allen when we played at CJ's Billiard Palace in Dallas....and Ronnie played REALLY well on the table, I was amazed at his accuracy.