If you use a hard or very hard tip, the squirt does not depend on the properties of tip. Squirt is determined only by the properties cue. http://www.billiard-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=153612&highlight=#153612
On Target Tips: low deflection and hybrid tips.
- Thread starter Jaden
- Start date
If you use a hard or very hard tip, the squirt does not depend on the properties of tip. Squirt is determined only by the properties cue. http://www.billiard-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=153612&highlight=#153612
I finally got around to testing the prototype tip Jaden sent me, along with a wide range of other tips of different hardnesses and heights. Check out the following video that documents the experiment and results:
NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)
Here's an executive summary of the results:
Tip type, size, and hardness appear to have very little effect on CB deflection (squirt).
Here is a summary of the data from the video:
I was a little surprised by the results, because I did expect to see a much larger difference in squirt over the wide range of tip types, hardnesses, and heights we tested.
Jaden’s tip (the "experimental 2-material composite") is cool and innovative, and it certainly has a different look, sound, and feel, but the amount of squirt was not less than with the other tips in my set of tests. Honestly, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. There are both advantages and disadvantages to having a shaft (and/or tip) that produces less CB deflection (squirt).
Hopefully, Jaden and others and do similar tests on different shafts, and with additional prototype and production versions of the tip. It's not that difficult to do the tests. A camera helps with taking measurements, but contact paper on a board against the end cushion would work just as well.
Enjoy,
Dave
NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)
Here's an executive summary of the results:
Tip type, size, and hardness appear to have very little effect on CB deflection (squirt).
Here is a summary of the data from the video:
I was a little surprised by the results, because I did expect to see a much larger difference in squirt over the wide range of tip types, hardnesses, and heights we tested.
Jaden’s tip (the "experimental 2-material composite") is cool and innovative, and it certainly has a different look, sound, and feel, but the amount of squirt was not less than with the other tips in my set of tests. Honestly, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. There are both advantages and disadvantages to having a shaft (and/or tip) that produces less CB deflection (squirt).
Hopefully, Jaden and others and do similar tests on different shafts, and with additional prototype and production versions of the tip. It's not that difficult to do the tests. A camera helps with taking measurements, but contact paper on a board against the end cushion would work just as well.
Enjoy,
Dave
I finally got around to testing the prototype tip Jaden sent me, along with a wide range of other tips of different hardnesses and heights. Check out the following video that documents the experiment and results:
NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)
Here's an executive summary of the results:
Tip type, size, and hardness appear to have very little effect on CB deflection (squirt).
Here is a summary of the data from the video:
I was a little surprised by the results, because I did expect to see a much larger difference in squirt over the wide range of tip types, hardnesses, and heights we tested.
Jaden’s tip (the "experimental 2-material composite") is cool and innovative, and it certainly has a different look, sound, and feel, but the amount of squirt was not less than with the other tips in my set of tests. Honestly, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. There are both advantages and disadvantages to having a shaft (and/or tip) that produces less CB deflection (squirt).
Hopefully, Jaden and others and do similar tests on different shafts, and with additional prototype and production versions of the tip. It's not that difficult to do the tests. A camera helps with taking measurements, but contact paper on a board against the end cushion would work just as well.
Enjoy,
Dave
Very cool Dave... Is there a complete writeup of the test on your website? I'd love to test my Ki-Techs the same way... To date I have been working on CoR measurements, External and Core Hardness... I might make additional changes once I have another benchmark to make adjustments from......
Chris
Switched browsers and the video loads... when I went to the link it just sat there like it was under construction.... The video is much appreciated and I will have to get to work asap..... Which means in the next cpl of weeks... LOL
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Thanks. It was a lot of work, but it was worth it to see how little effect tip selection has on cue ball deflection (squirt).
Sorry, I don't, but the video has all of the info you need. I do plan to write an article for BD on this topic in the future, but I'm not sure when I'll get to it.
I'm glad to hear it. I was hoping the video would be helpful for others wanting to do similar tests.
You're welcome ... and thanks again.
Regards,
Dave
Thank You.
First off, I'd like to thank Dave for his efforts.
After hearing of his results, I had to say I was rather perplexed to say the least.
It forced me to go back and do some additional comprehensive testing of my own.
I did find a shaft that I hadn't tested before that got similar results to what Dave had found.
It was a McDermott with REALLY high deflection and a long ferule. Dave had mentioned that the shaft he did his testing on had a long ferule as well.
It is unknown at this time, what it is about certain shafts that would cause squirt to be virtually unaffected by tip differences.
Dave had stated that he was surprised with the results himself.
Based on this new information, I went back and did a video analysis of several cues with and without my tips and compared them to a ld shaft (Mezz Ikon 8 with a WD700 shaft)
What I found was that both a viking that I tested with a prototype Hybrid tip with the LD design and my Putnam custom with one of my LD prototypes on it had virtually identical results to the WD700 with a moori.
The video I made shows all of this. I also after I had concluded the testing of the five different cues went back and tested my Putnam playing cue again and then went straight over to a lathe of mine and switched out the tip with a le pro medium. In between gluing the le pro on, I came over and showed the shaft sans tip to the camera to show that it had not been modified in any way.
Then after gluing the le pro onto the shaft, I tested the cue again. The results are all on the video which is processing as I type this and will be posted as soon as it finishes processing and uploading to youtube.
I had wanted (and will when time allows) to do a voice over on the video, but I thought that I should get it posted as soon as possible.
In the video at each of the times the ball contacted the rail, I took out the individual frame at the time of contact and illustrated it with a alternating black and white striped placard placed on the end of the table.
Each of the frames in the video is the actual frame from that moment in time.
Here are a few of the stills illustrating the results. The video still has about one and a half hours of processing time and then the amount of time it will take to upload it to youtube. The raw footage from the camera was over 5GBs and it is in 1080p.
First off, I'd like to thank Dave for his efforts.
After hearing of his results, I had to say I was rather perplexed to say the least.
It forced me to go back and do some additional comprehensive testing of my own.
I did find a shaft that I hadn't tested before that got similar results to what Dave had found.
It was a McDermott with REALLY high deflection and a long ferule. Dave had mentioned that the shaft he did his testing on had a long ferule as well.
It is unknown at this time, what it is about certain shafts that would cause squirt to be virtually unaffected by tip differences.
Dave had stated that he was surprised with the results himself.
Based on this new information, I went back and did a video analysis of several cues with and without my tips and compared them to a ld shaft (Mezz Ikon 8 with a WD700 shaft)
What I found was that both a viking that I tested with a prototype Hybrid tip with the LD design and my Putnam custom with one of my LD prototypes on it had virtually identical results to the WD700 with a moori.
The video I made shows all of this. I also after I had concluded the testing of the five different cues went back and tested my Putnam playing cue again and then went straight over to a lathe of mine and switched out the tip with a le pro medium. In between gluing the le pro on, I came over and showed the shaft sans tip to the camera to show that it had not been modified in any way.
Then after gluing the le pro onto the shaft, I tested the cue again. The results are all on the video which is processing as I type this and will be posted as soon as it finishes processing and uploading to youtube.
I had wanted (and will when time allows) to do a voice over on the video, but I thought that I should get it posted as soon as possible.
In the video at each of the times the ball contacted the rail, I took out the individual frame at the time of contact and illustrated it with a alternating black and white striped placard placed on the end of the table.
Each of the frames in the video is the actual frame from that moment in time.
Here are a few of the stills illustrating the results. The video still has about one and a half hours of processing time and then the amount of time it will take to upload it to youtube. The raw footage from the camera was over 5GBs and it is in 1080p.
Attachments
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Those stills are pretty fuzzy for 1080p, hard to tell what's going on. The angle at which the camera is pointing is also complicating the interpretation.
Once your video is live, you can do freeze frames and annotations of it and share them back here with http://clippeo.com.
It's uploading to youtube now, 90 minutes left.
They're currently uploading to youtube.
They're fuzzy because the camera is setup at the far end of the table. I did it this way purposely so that the view would be able to clearly show the stroke of the shaft and the path of the ball.
The zoom ins with annotation is just to give a close up comparison, it is obvious from the video where they are going. I may upload one of the straight video as well without the pause frame zoom ins. Then anyone who is interested can pause and go frame by frame to see the results.
Jaden
They're currently uploading to youtube.
They're fuzzy because the camera is setup at the far end of the table. I did it this way purposely so that the view would be able to clearly show the stroke of the shaft and the path of the ball.
The zoom ins with annotation is just to give a close up comparison, it is obvious from the video where they are going. I may upload one of the straight video as well without the pause frame zoom ins. Then anyone who is interested can pause and go frame by frame to see the results.
Jaden
How much weight are you adding to the end of the cue?? I see metal... lots and lots which to me means way more endmass????
Ok here it is....
Ok here's my video. It will be updated with an overdub explaining what to look for and what the findings were, but here's a little bit to go with it as it is.
I set it up with a phenolic rod on the table next to where the shot is taking place aiming straight across the table.
What this does is give a frame of reference for the shaft to show that it is traveling parallel to the shot line. I first shoot 3 or so shots with no spin (except when shooting the cuetec) then I shoot 3 or so shots with side spin.
You can watch the shadow of the cue during and after the stroke to see that it is traveling parallel to the phenolic rod on the table for all shots. This is important as any stroke flaws can throw off the results.
I use a striped ball with the stripe in line with the shot to ensure I'm hitting the same amount of spin on all shots. I aim through the part of the stripe in between the number circle and the outside edge of the stripe for all spin shots.
I used the angle I did so that when I switch the tip on my playing cues shaft, you can see me do it.
The video is 41 minutes long so I can understand people not wanting to sit through the whole thing.
If you skip forward to 18:30. That's where I start the second test with my playing cue and where I cut off the tip and replace it with a lepro and redo the test again. If you want to skip over me cutting off and replacing the tip, I start testing with the lepro at
34:30.
I also shoot again with the Mezz to show the difference considering that my playing cues shaft had almost identical results to the Mezz when it had my LD tip on it.
I've also since replaced the lepro with one of my tips again and it plays like it did again.
For some reason the video only uploaded as 360P. I'll have to check my settings for flv conversion in adobe premiere. The stills are accurate representations though as I cut the ball in half and then have parallel (to the incident angles) lines going to the same place on the paper for all of the illustrations.
Jaden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2fjmJ2vqUE&feature=youtu.be
Ok here's my video. It will be updated with an overdub explaining what to look for and what the findings were, but here's a little bit to go with it as it is.
I set it up with a phenolic rod on the table next to where the shot is taking place aiming straight across the table.
What this does is give a frame of reference for the shaft to show that it is traveling parallel to the shot line. I first shoot 3 or so shots with no spin (except when shooting the cuetec) then I shoot 3 or so shots with side spin.
You can watch the shadow of the cue during and after the stroke to see that it is traveling parallel to the phenolic rod on the table for all shots. This is important as any stroke flaws can throw off the results.
I use a striped ball with the stripe in line with the shot to ensure I'm hitting the same amount of spin on all shots. I aim through the part of the stripe in between the number circle and the outside edge of the stripe for all spin shots.
I used the angle I did so that when I switch the tip on my playing cues shaft, you can see me do it.
The video is 41 minutes long so I can understand people not wanting to sit through the whole thing.
If you skip forward to 18:30. That's where I start the second test with my playing cue and where I cut off the tip and replace it with a lepro and redo the test again. If you want to skip over me cutting off and replacing the tip, I start testing with the lepro at
34:30.
I also shoot again with the Mezz to show the difference considering that my playing cues shaft had almost identical results to the Mezz when it had my LD tip on it.
I've also since replaced the lepro with one of my tips again and it plays like it did again.
For some reason the video only uploaded as 360P. I'll have to check my settings for flv conversion in adobe premiere. The stills are accurate representations though as I cut the ball in half and then have parallel (to the incident angles) lines going to the same place on the paper for all of the illustrations.
Jaden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2fjmJ2vqUE&feature=youtu.be
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so all in all my results were as follows.
The 74 rich, was between 1.5" to 1.75" off of the non english contact point. It has a fairly thin shaft at below 12mm and is old growth hard wood, so this can be somewhat expected as it is below that of the other high deflecting shafts.
The Mezz WD700 was between 1.25" to 1.5" as was my playing cue (Putnam) with the On Target Tips LD tip and the Viking with the On Target Tips Hybrid tip.
The Cuetec with one of the early first design prototypes was at about 2" to 2.5" as was the McDermott; however, the McDermott had no discernible difference from using a regular tip but the Cuetec with a regular tip was deflecting 3.25" to 4" so there WAS improvement with the cuetec.
Once I switched the tip on the Putnam to the LePro, it varied from 2" to 2.75" which is a substantial change from having the LD tip on there at 1.25" to 1.5".
This was all on a custom 9 foot table from the break spot to the rail up table.
Jaden
The 74 rich, was between 1.5" to 1.75" off of the non english contact point. It has a fairly thin shaft at below 12mm and is old growth hard wood, so this can be somewhat expected as it is below that of the other high deflecting shafts.
The Mezz WD700 was between 1.25" to 1.5" as was my playing cue (Putnam) with the On Target Tips LD tip and the Viking with the On Target Tips Hybrid tip.
The Cuetec with one of the early first design prototypes was at about 2" to 2.5" as was the McDermott; however, the McDermott had no discernible difference from using a regular tip but the Cuetec with a regular tip was deflecting 3.25" to 4" so there WAS improvement with the cuetec.
Once I switched the tip on the Putnam to the LePro, it varied from 2" to 2.75" which is a substantial change from having the LD tip on there at 1.25" to 1.5".
This was all on a custom 9 foot table from the break spot to the rail up table.
Jaden
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If you are using a conventional 1 inch capped ferrule, the total weight is the same.
Interesting.... Had missed the previous posts on the system.... Would make tip replacement a snap on the go......
What happens when you put your LD tip on an LD shaft?
Does it decrease the squirt even more?
Does it decrease the squirt even more?
I don't want to jump the gun again or make assumptions.
I had made an assumption before based on the few shafts that I had initially tested that all shafts would have reduced squirt and that has proven to not be the case. So I don't want to jump the gun again.
The only LD shaft I have tested my tip on is the one that I had developed, and yes, it was decreased even more. I will be doing additional testing on some other LD shafts as time permits. I have been inundated with getting the production, my suppliers and all of my ducks in a row, so additional testing has been difficult.
I had to put together this video after hearing of Dave's results which had confounded me. So it has delayed me a little bit further even, but I will get to some additional testing, all of which I will video tape and post and will link to on my website as well as time permits.
So many people have been interested in my tips that I have been trying to get production going to be able to officially launch while ensuring that I can meet demand and keep quality control high.
Anyone who has started a business I'm sure can relate.
Jaden
I had made an assumption before based on the few shafts that I had initially tested that all shafts would have reduced squirt and that has proven to not be the case. So I don't want to jump the gun again.
The only LD shaft I have tested my tip on is the one that I had developed, and yes, it was decreased even more. I will be doing additional testing on some other LD shafts as time permits. I have been inundated with getting the production, my suppliers and all of my ducks in a row, so additional testing has been difficult.
I had to put together this video after hearing of Dave's results which had confounded me. So it has delayed me a little bit further even, but I will get to some additional testing, all of which I will video tape and post and will link to on my website as well as time permits.
So many people have been interested in my tips that I have been trying to get production going to be able to officially launch while ensuring that I can meet demand and keep quality control high.
Anyone who has started a business I'm sure can relate.
Jaden
Product and process refinement along with market testing usually means you have to slow your roll a little...
Being first to market has benefits and shortfalls depending on how the market perceives you...
I know you don't want to hear this but if your video was done as a response or to refute Dr. Dave's video I think you will have to redo it with better lighting, a better camera, on better equipment and with the same exact setup as Dr. Dave used. Hole reinforcers and all.. from your camera angle it appears that you are angleing the cue (back hand english) based on the guide stick running down the table which would lower deflection..I am not sure if you are or not because of the camera angle...
Good luck,
Chris
Jaden,
I'd also recommend that you use a little more speed to take swerve out of the equation as much as possible. Also, it seems like your cue might not be as level as it could be in the video (but it is hard to tell). Having it more level, if possible, will also minimize swerve effects. The problem with having swerve when doing squirt testing is that the amount of swerve can vary with each shot. And even if you use the exact same stroke with each tip, the amount of net CB deflection (AKA "squerve" or the combined effects of squirt and swerve) will be different because of speed differences from one tip to the next. A harder and more efficient tip will create more speed, less swerve, and less net CB deflection with the same stroke. If you use a faster speed and near-level cue, the amount of swerve will be less of a factor. Then you will be measuring closer to pure squirt.
Good luck with your testing. I look forward to seeing more results from you and others.
Again, for future testing, consider using the procedure, recommendations, and camera angle demonstrated in this video:
NV D.15 - Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)
Here's the rail ruler template.
Catch you later,
Dave
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Pathetic Shark
Banned
What cue is that? It's not a Predator Ikon 8 with a WD700 - did Mezz make one too?
Also, it appears your table is not level around the rack area - could that be dumping the CB off line a little?
my bad on the ikon 8 thing...
no it is a mezz I forgot the model type. It was a model my friend had and he had previously played with an ikon 8, that's where the confusion came about.
As to dave's comment on the level stroke, I did also notice that; however, I paid close attention as to which shots that the shaft appeared to dip and you can first see that it was well after contact and secondly that almost all of the shots with the apparent dip afterwards were also shots for the shafts that squirted more, so swerve would've minimized the effect of squirt rather than accentuated it.
I will definitely continue to do more tests. I have plans to build and a design for a mechanical arm. to eliminate the individual factor as well.
Jaden
no it is a mezz I forgot the model type. It was a model my friend had and he had previously played with an ikon 8, that's where the confusion came about.
As to dave's comment on the level stroke, I did also notice that; however, I paid close attention as to which shots that the shaft appeared to dip and you can first see that it was well after contact and secondly that almost all of the shots with the apparent dip afterwards were also shots for the shafts that squirted more, so swerve would've minimized the effect of squirt rather than accentuated it.
I will definitely continue to do more tests. I have plans to build and a design for a mechanical arm. to eliminate the individual factor as well.
Jaden
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