On Target Tips: low deflection and hybrid tips.

[Jaden]

The leather portion will eventually become compressed.

What exactly would cause the under tip to "wear out"?

Nothing on it's face, but eventually the leather portion of the under tip will become compressed and might lose some efficacy or change the feel of the hit.

You could same the same for any tip. You could just leave a kamui black hard the same without ever shaping it or changing it, but eventually it plays different.

It will be less dramatic a change with the under tip and just replacing the top portion will work, but I recommend changing it every six months to a year. Potentially more often depending on how much you play. I will likely change the whole thing on mine every couple of months because of how often I play (30-60 hours a week).

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

I didn't see those questions. sorry.

Those must have been hard questions.

The revised design should have no question of legality. It will be legal for all play.

Also the revised design makes it so that there will only need to be two sizes and they will accommodate all sizes of shafts.

Jaden

 

[jburkm002]

So should we be playing with a stiff or flexible shaft? Soft or hard tip? Skinny or fat shaft? Short or long ferrule? Light or heavy cue? What type of joint? I get everyone is going to try and sell their low deflection equipment. Not sure I have ever seen any tests on anything except what Meucci put out. That BLACK DOT shaft what the opposite of everything we see now(flexible shaft with a long ferrule). Think Jacoby has a flexible LD shaft now. It's all so confusing.

 

[JoeyA]

Jaden,
If you have created a low deflection tip, you should patent the construction process.

Please let me know when the tips go on sale. I would like to try one.

JoeyA

 

[Jaden]

I already have a provisional patent Joey.

Jaden,
If you have created a low deflection tip, you should patent the construction process.

Please let me know when the tips go on sale. I would like to try one.

JoeyA

Yeah Joey, I already have provisional patents for the ideas. I will be finalizing the utility patents toward the beginning of next year.

Jaden.

 

[dr_dave]

Dave, a tip of the new design will be coming to you directly for testing. I would've sent a tip to you earlier but wanted to make sure I had production level quality before I did.

Thanks for letting me know. I look forward to trying it out to see how much it can reduce squirt. I'll mount it on a high-deflection shaft to see how much a difference it can make.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[whammo57]

hahahaha


low deflection tip.............. you're funny


LOL


Kim

 

[Pathetic Shark]

If these work, the custom cue market is going to be worth investing in again.

 

[jburkm002]

Dr Dave have you ever described your cue in detail? You should know what would be the best equipment. I know some people don't like LD shafts but that doesn't mean it isn't better for their game. So if a new player was starting out in pool what would you suggest to be the best equipment? Serious questions here. I know everyone had their personal preference. Dr. Dave understands the science / physics of the game. I do not. Only what I read and from opinions.

 

[JoeyA]

Yeah Joey, I already have provisional patents for the ideas. I will be finalizing the utility patents toward the beginning of next year.

Jaden.

My bad. I wrote as soon as I read your first post.
GOOD LUCK!

JoeyA

 

[dr_dave]

Dr Dave have you ever described your cue in detail?

Don't consider this an endorsement, but I play with a Predator Z-2 shaft and a Morri medium-hardness tip. I prefer an LD shaft for the advantages listed here. I generally prefer a harder tip for the advantages listed here.

You should know what would be the best equipment. I know some people don't like LD shafts but that doesn't mean it isn't better for their game. So if a new player was starting out in pool what would you suggest to be the best equipment?

The "best equipment" will depend on the individual. For example, concerning an LD shaft, there are also disadvantages for some people. Also, some people might hate the sound and "feel" of a hard tip.

Honestly, I don't think the cue and tip matter that much as long as the tip holds chalk and the player has had time to get used to the equipment. However, for a person who uses sidespin in their game and doesn't have a good feel for how to adjust for squirt and swerve with various types of shots, an LD shaft is probably a better choice in general, assuming the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for that individual.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ceebee]

Well.... this is exciting news. I'm ready to give these a try... I'm like the guy that wants a Chevrolet, he doesn't care how they make Chevy's , he just wants to drive one.

Please holler when they are ready for purchase... CB

 

[minohc]

I can't wait try your products on Cog!!!
:thumbup:

 

[Jaden]

Since you live in Oklahoma....

Well.... this is exciting news. I'm ready to give these a try... I'm like the guy that wants a Chevrolet, he doesn't care how they make Chevy's , he just wants to drive one.

Please holler when they are ready for purchase... CB

I don't know what part of Oklahoma you're from, but if you know Huck, he is likely to be one of the first if not the first installer who has some.

Jaden

 

[CreeDo]

The main effect is: while the cue tip is in contact with the CB during an off-center hit, the CB starts to turn. This pushes the cue tip sideways and the cue tip pushes back.

So let me be super clear... it's the rotational force of the cue ball that pushes the tip away
from it, and then tip's "rebound" back to its original position is what shoves the cue ball away and deflects it?

I thought simply having the tip hit the CB at an angle would cause it to bounce away from the cue ball.
So the tip veering away and then re-centering was due to the the stick's forward movement, not rotiational forces.
That doesn't affect it?

Put it another way, if the tip hit the spot on the cue ball and could only bend 1 way (away from the cue ball)
and didn't return to its original position... would you get no deflection?
Doesn't an off-center hit push the cue ball sideways no matter what?
I.e. if the stick is pointing at the head spot but contacts off-center, then even with our theoretical "wet noodle"
wouldn't the cue ball not shoot towards the head spot? Because the tip "cut" the cue ball slightly?

 

[dr_dave]

Check out the following article: "Squirt - Part I: introduction" (BD, August, 2007). It explains and illustrates what causes squirt in a very easy-to-understand way, with drawings and images from high-speed photography.

The main effect is: while the cue tip is in contact with the CB during an off-center hit, the CB starts to turn. This pushes the cue tip sideways and the cue tip pushes back. The amount of push depends on the effective mass ("endmass") being deflected in the cue. The "effective mass" depends on how far the tip deflection is "felt" down the length of the shaft as a sideways "wave" travels down the shaft toward the butt. Because the tip is in contact with the CB for such a short a time, the wave does not travel very far (only about 5-10 inches). The distance it travels varies with shaft stiffness some. It travels faster (and longer) in a stiffer shaft involving more "effective mass" in the sideways deflection, which causes more squirt (CB deflection).

So let me be super clear... it's the rotational force of the cue ball that pushes the tip away from it

Yes.

and then tip's "rebound" back to its original position is what shoves the cue ball away and deflects it?

Absolutely not. The cue tip continues to move sideways (away from the CB) long after the CB is gone.

If you or others haven't checked out the squirt-intro article yet, give it a look. It describes and illustrates the effect fairly well.

When the CB starts to turn while the tip is still in contact with the CB, the end of the shaft is given a sideways speed. It takes force to do this since the end of the shaft has mass. For every action (sideways force pushing on the tip), there is an equal and opposite reaction (sideways force pushing back on the CB, causing it to squirt). The cue tip continues to move sideways and eventually springs back and vibrates back and forth, but the CB is long gone by then. For more info and videos, see the cue vibration resource page.

I thought simply having the tip hit the CB at an angle would cause it to bounce away from the cue ball.
...
That doesn't affect it?

... only if the tip slips during contact (in which case, you get a miscue).

Put it another way, if the tip hit the spot on the cue ball and could only bend 1 way (away from the cue ball) and didn't return to its original position... would you get no deflection?

No. If the tip moves sideways, and the shaft end has mass, there will be squirt (CB deflection).

Doesn't an off-center hit push the cue ball sideways no matter what?

No.

I.e. if the stick is pointing at the head spot but contacts off-center, then even with our theoretical "wet noodle" wouldn't the cue ball not shoot towards the head spot? Because the tip "cut" the cue ball slightly?

If the tip does not slip, and if the shaft theoretically had no "endmass" (but was still strong and stiff enough to hit the CB), then there would be absolutely no squirt (i.e., the CB would head in a line parallel to the cue direction at impact.)

I hope that makes sense. If it doesn't, let me know.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, here's the diagram (images from a 2000 frame/sec high-speed video) and explanation from my squirt intro article (BD, August, 2007):

Still “a” is just before contact. Stills “b” through “e” represent a little less than 0.001 second (one thousandth of a second) during which the tip is in contact with the ball. In still “f” the tip hasn’t fully recovered from the compression yet as the CB is separating. Still “g” is after separation. The line and arc appearing in each still mark the initial cue stick and CB positions. Notice how much the cue tip deflects away (down in the diagram) from its original line of action. Also notice how much the cue tip deforms (e.g., see still “d”).

The black arrows in still “c” in the diagram illustrate the effect that causes squirt. While the tip is in contact with the ball, the ball starts rotating. This rotation (counterclockwise in the diagram) pushes the cup tip down a little during contact. Because the end of the shaft has mass, it takes force to move the end of the shaft down as the ball rotates. Isaac Newton said: “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction;” therefore, if the tip is being pushed down by the ball, the tip will push back with an equal and opposite force on the ball. This force is what causes squirt.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

For those curious, here are two example super-slow-motion videos showing how the tip deforms and how the shaft flexes during tip contact:

HSV A.76a - close-up of tip during off-center hit
video from DBKcues in Russia

I know that when one looks at these videos, it is tempting to think that squirt (CB deflection) is caused completely by tip compression and shaft flex. However, IMO, it is best to ignore these effects when trying to understand the basics of squirt (see my previous posts for explanations of the most important effect). Tip compression and shaft flex are really just side effects of the off-center-hit forces required to keep the tip from slipping on the CB.

Now, the more the tip compresses and flexes sideways, the longer the tip will tend to stay in contact with the CB. This would certainly result in more squirt (CB deflection) because the effective "endmass" is larger with a longer contact time (per my previous posts). Also, the more the tip flexes sideways, the more the endmass of the shaft moves sideways, which would also tend to create more squirt. These effects might help explain why Jaden's new tip design might help reduce squirt. But if these were the only effects at play, a solid phenolic tip (or really hard leather tip) should reduce squirt just as well, if not better (assuming all tips in the comparison have equal weight). I look forward to doing some testing to help answer these questions more definitely.

Shaft flex can also have an effect because it might cause some of the "endmass" to move faster than it would otherwise. This could contribute to more squirt, but I wouldn't expect this effect to be very significant.

Again, the main effect causing squirt is as described in my recent posts. The most effective way to reduce squirt (CB deflection) is to reduce the effective "endmass" of the shaft. Keeping the tip contact time as short as possible (e.g., by using a harder tip) can also help.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SouthernDraw]

First, patent or no patent once word hits China, they will get one and copy it. Then, sell it highly discounted to a few supply co's or on ebay that will take a low price and not ask questions. Unfortunately.

My questions are these...
Does it machine easily (cut cleanly & easily)?
Does it require sealing (sounds like no)?
Will an 'average joe' be able to replace a tip w/out a lathe? Does require a special cutting tool (razor blade, high speed steel, etc.)?
Does CA reliably hold the tips on?

Thanks ahead of time for your reply.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I'd like to see the results of any testing you have done. My impression is you have already marketed this tip as a home run squirt reduction tip. You have a distributor set up, provisional patent filed, utility patent application in the works, a catchy name for the tip, and everyone in this thread jumping to get a sample.

What testing have you done to support that the tip actually reduces squirt?