Double Elimination is BROKEN

[336Robin]

Buy Backs

Redraw every round with 1 buy if an odd number of players. Totally fair and you never know who you will be playing. You can add buyback to increase the money for payouts.

So this is how the derby does it? redraw every round with buy backs for all losers?

When do they stop the buy backs?

 

[joelpope]

Double elimination...it's not good for the sport. Pool Needs to play sets, two outta three or three outta five....PERIOD.

Dbl/Elimination.... It's only good for the whiners and for the those that got a bad roll....DBL elimination Keeps more people in the room to spend money the first day and into the wee hours...............Last match START times are often 12-14 away from initial start time. If the tournament is an Hour away, you must get up at LEAST two to three hours before play starts to eat/shower and get in some practice before play starts, and the proverbial Player Meeting, and Calcutta in some states. A normal first day of play can Easily be a 15 hour day, WHO BENEFITS???????????????????????? Who preforms well after being up that long????


AS a Player,
You need to be at the pool room at Least one hour before Play starts, and after the draw you STILL are Unable to nail down when you play, if not in the first round, the second, or the third or????????????

Pool MUST Follow the formatting of TENNIS....Many are unable to fall into line with the Sleep patterns semi pro events create, it's at the Root of the problem, and I'm SURE why some turnouts are not as Expected. Formatting and event design are Flawed and are geared more towards the business model than the game itself. Players are always looking for an ANGLE as are businesses, they both are Complicit when this matter is looked at from a Real perspective of ''the game'', which seldom if Ever comes before room owner and a gamblers mindset.

Playing sets...scheduling and match TIMES can be controlled.....

Sounds like you lost something at a double elimination tournament

So now it is bad

 

[StraightPoolIU]

I have always said that the tennis format of multiple sets, seeding, and win by two alternate break should be the model pool should move towards.

I agree with that also. Also, from a spectator's perspective (for pro events) it is much easier to follow and make sense of a single elimination bracket.

 

[The Chipsta]

Ran this idea by a local TD who wouldn't try it due to fear of losing the better players. Assume 64 man tournament and paying 16 places. Play regular double elimination on Saturday until you have 16 players, 8 winners and 8 losers. Redraw on Sunday morning at 15 minutes prior to start time and Sunday becomes all single elimination. That way you can advertise the match times for Sunday and maybe get some spectators.

That way if you get a bad draw you just have to survive until Sunday to get back to even. TD gets to leave at a normal time instead of late. Spectators know that the finals are at a definite time. I never go back to watch later matches because you don't know if they tried to finish early or not. I remember stopping by once around 5 pm on Sunday only to find out they still had 2-3 rounds left. Can't hang till midnight on Sunday.

I was a little surprised he wanted to keep the better players happy. What other alternatives do they really have? It's the new guys that you need to keep, and this gives them a better shake. When you leave Saturday and know you are playing the prohibitive favorite on the losers side in your first match Sunday, you almost want to collect your cash and stay home Sunday. This way you can draw anyone left in he tournament. This also stops the hot seat guy from having to sit around and wait all day while the losers side survivor comes in totally warmed up.

Wish someone would give it a try.

 

[Island Drive]

Sounds like you lost something at a double elimination tournament

So now it is bad

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion....reread my first post. I want to play this weekend in Pueblo and again in Jan, but the first round won't finish till two am or later and play starts that next day, which you are already into, what's the fun in that, playing when your Dead tired. You comment tho was expected.

 

[JumpinJoe]

Well the pool rooms add the $$...and most of them at least in my area could care less if the pros play, we normally get large fields.

I run a lot of tourneys, have for the past 3-4 years, and I have never ran the main event as a single race at any point, nor would I ever consider it. I don't think its fair for a guy to win the winners side, then lose 1 set and the other guy be crowned the winner.
Seeding players also a big nono to me.

I recently saw a WPBA event where at the end of the event, 3 of the final 4 girls ended up with 1 loss only, in no way would I run a event where a winner is declared under those absurd circumstances.

I like everyone around, creates action also.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I run a lot of tourneys, have for the past 3-4 years, and I have never ran the main event as a single race at any point, nor would I ever consider it. I don't think its fair for a guy to win the winners side, then lose 1 set and the other guy be crowned the winner.
Seeding players also a big nono to me.

I recently saw a WPBA event where at the end of the event, 3 of the final 4 girls ended up with 1 loss only, in no way would I run a event where a winner is declared under those absurd circumstances.

You must really hate what our professional sports do. I will bet it really rubbed you wrong when the 18-0 Patriots were defeated by the 13-6 Giants to win the grandaddy of them all: 07-08 Superbowl. I think these folks know what they are doing.

 

[JumpinJoe]

You must really hate what our professional sports do. I will bet it really rubbed you wrong when the 18-0 Patriots were defeated by the 13-6 Giants to win the grandaddy of them all: 07-08 Superbowl. I think these folks know what they are doing.

Pool is not a sport. Quit comparing it to them. If it was a sport, perhaps it would have money in it. Then it could be run different. But until then, the rooms need people in them and they need different winners.

 

[pt109]

Here is a format that has worked around here. It is for a weekend tournament. It's usually called "single elimination with buyback". It works best if the matches are handicapped but that's not required.

Saturday: All play is in mini-groups of 8 players, single elimination. Play can start as soon as you have 16 or 24 players present. The tournament does not have to wait for stragglers. Each group of 8 plays straight through to one winner. That winner comes back on Sunday. He can go home until then or match up or watch.

The second-place finisher in the group of eight gets his entry fee back. He and all the earlier losers in the group can re-enter for the same entry fee and get drawn into new groups of eight. Those re-entries and the late comers are drawn into new groups of eight. If you lose in a mini and want to go have dinner before getting back into the draw, that's fine. Minis continue until you can't get at least four players to sign up.

Sunday: Everyone shows up about 1PM. I suppose you could do a calcutta then since you will know who is playing. This part is single elimination with players seeded in according to how early they qualified -- earliest to qualify has the best chance of a bye.

I like this format a lot.

 

[leto1776]

In high school wrestling, tournaments ran under what's called a repetage. Once you lose, you can't place higher than third. This is also how it's done in many Olympic sports.

Honestly, it never made sense to me how someone could conceivably lose in the first round, only to come out as the Champion.

 

[justadub]

I have always said that the tennis format of multiple sets, seeding, and win by two alternate break should be the model pool should move towards.

How the hell could you seed in pool today?

Seeding would involve people trying to win, all the time.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

How the hell could you seed in pool today?

Seeding would involve people trying to win, all the time.

I don't think you could or would want to seed regional or local tournaments, but in a world where there is a unified professional game and tour with standards and a real world ranking events could be seeded by ranking once there was enough results to make good rankings. World Snooker used to be run like this. Since that does not exist right now in pool I don't think you could do legitimate seeding also a lot of events depend on dead money instead of sponsor support. A lot of those dead money players play because they get a chance to mix it up with a champion in early rounds.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Pool is not a sport. Quit comparing it to them. If it was a sport, perhaps it would have money in it. Then it could be run different.

I think it is a sport. Go ahead and Google "list of sports". Pool is on every one of them. Here is the top item on Google: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports#Cue_sports

Pool is considered a cue sport.

There is some value comparing sports, and there is a common denominator. It is the human being. That should always be the first consideration.

 

[JumpinJoe]

Yeah it's a sport. Every player in the history of pool could total the tourney winnings they have and basketball has 1 guy (Michael Jordan) alone that's made more then all of them combined. Baseball has 1 guy ( Alex Rodriguez) that's made more then all of them combined. Football has 1 guy (Peyton Manning) that's made more then all of them combined. Golf has 1 guy (Tiger)that's made more then all of them combined. Tennis has 1 guy (Roger fedderer) that's made more then all of them combined. Soccer has 1 guy (David Beckham) that's made more then all of them combined.
This could go on with nascar, formula One, Swimming, Boxing, etc.
Sports has money.

Pool is a game, like bowling, chess, darts, etc......I know it gets some of your undies in a bunch, but it is what it is.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Yeah it's a sport. Every player in the history of pool could total the tourney winnings they have and basketball has 1 guy (Michael Jordan) alone that's made more then all of them combined. Baseball has 1 guy ( Alex Rodriguez) that's made more then all of them combined. Football has 1 guy (Peyton Manning) that's made more then all of them combined. Golf has 1 guy (Tiger)that's made more then all of them combined. Tennis has 1 guy (Roger fedderer) that's made more then all of them combined. Soccer has 1 guy (David Beckham) that's made more then all of them combined.
This could go on with nascar, formula One, Swimming, Boxing, etc.
Sports has money.

Pool is a game, like bowling, chess, darts, etc......I know it gets some of your undies in a bunch, but it is what it is.

You might want to throw darts into the sports category.

Apparently, some guy named Phil Taylor who is considered the best of all time made almost a million in tournaments alone in 2011. I'd guess he's made close to that in other years if he's considered the best.

 

[336Robin]

Pool is the new Darts

You might want to throw darts into the sports category.

Apparently, some guy named Phil Taylor who is considered the best of all time made almost a million in tournaments alone in 2011. I'd guess he's made close to that in other years if he's considered the best.

BeiberLvr,
The problem with pool in my area is that it is the New Darts and probably should be free that way people would at least have a beer and support the room. Its likely it would be easier to fill the tables that way than bring in players that aren't there.

Its becoming a game because of lack of support.

 

[Masayoshi]

In Japan, most tournaments have 2 or 3 rounds of double elimination and a redraw for a single elimination finals bracket after the double elimination. This saves a whole lot of time, but still gives the better players a chance to wake up and the weaker players more value for their entry because they don't have to go home after the first round. It also allows you to seed the single elimination rounds by pairing those who went through the double elimination undefeated with the one loss guys.

 

[336Robin]

Thats Interesting

In Japan, most tournaments have 2 or 3 rounds of double elimination and a redraw for a single elimination finals bracket after the double elimination. This saves a whole lot of time, but still gives the better players a chance to wake up and the weaker players more value for their entry because they don't have to go home after the first round. It also allows you to seed the single elimination rounds by pairing those who went through the double elimination undefeated with the one loss guys.

Now that's interesting. How long does it take in days to do that? Also are you talking about 2 to 3 rounds of complete double elimination play before redraw or are you talking about running on board down to the 3rd or 4th bracket? Im just not sure how you would handle that or finish in a weekend.

 

[justadub]

I don't think you could or would want to seed regional or local tournaments, but in a world where there is a unified professional game and tour with standards and a real world ranking events could be seeded by ranking once there was enough results to make good rankings. World Snooker used to be run like this. Since that does not exist right now in pool I don't think you could do legitimate seeding also a lot of events depend on dead money instead of sponsor support. A lot of those dead money players play because they get a chance to mix it up with a champion in early rounds.

I agree with you.

Still, we only have to go back two or three years when there were enough "big" tournaments that there was an actual points race to get onto the Mosconi Cup team.

And guess what, in the finals of one of those points events, the two in the finals did the chop so one of them could get the points for the race.

Unless and until you can get the chop/split out of the equation, seeding will never work. (Along with having enough true events, of course, which are dwindling more and more every year.)

Yes, it could be done. It just can't be done.

 

[ironman]

Some leagues last for 1/3 of a year. Working peoples lives are very predictable during the week. People who work have MONEY....get other rooms involved and whittle it down. Just think of pool from another perspective. The current weekend events are what they are, since McChesney, Flloyd Baxter, the Viking Tour and others. Develop a points system, start in your state, work with other rooms, come up with a plan, try something different. Do Just the opposite of what we have had for EVER.

I don't totally disagree with ya, but, th e past is a great predicter and re=invention of te wheel always alarms me. but that is just me. NOt saying you have a bad idea just looking from the other side.