Double Elimination is BROKEN

[alstl]

Usually, the owner loses money anyway, especially in rooms where the regular daily trade is already decent. The more players a good room draws to a tournament, the more money they lose because they have to displace normal business that would have been there without the tournament. Tournament players just don't spend the kind of money that social players do.

Roger

Right, and if I hear your pool room is having a tournament, drive to your pool room on Saturday and am told I can't play because I didn't sign up a week in advance what kind of an impression do you think I have of your pool room? Do I have to sign up a week in advance to get a hamburger and fries?

The tournament can be two things. It can be a way to promote the room to more than just the regulars who are in there every day or it can be limited to the regulars and unfriendly to outsiders. If the room is swimming in cash from the regulars then by all means make it difficult for outsiders to play there.

I remember the first 9 ball tournament I played in - handicapped tournament. My opponent was a regular in the place and he was explaining the rules of 9 ball to me. I was rated a stronger player than him. Every week a regular won the tournament. Eventually the only people who showed up for the tournament were the regulars and it went from a weekly to a monthly tournament because they couldn't attract enough people to have a tournament every week. If there are options people will go to the place where they are treated the best.

 

[336Robin]

Scheduling

I'd much rather see two separate One Day Saturday events, than the samo final sixteen on a Sunday after a burn out night of Sat evening play. Sundays are generally for families and church for the working ''Many'', who have the fund$. Don't allow those who played in the first Sat. event to play in the second one. This may also allow the room to be more Open for the night time Sat. players/bangers/drinkers etc. who pay the rent.

I dont want a late night burn out of any kind and if you plan right there isnt one. I do understand what you mean by 2 events but I liked the way that the event I ran ended early enough on Saturday night for people to socialize and play and then come back Sunday to watch the finals. If you have big names playing it helps the room owner sell food and drinks. At lot of spectators came back on Sunday because they knew the finals wouldnt be late Sunday ending. People are going to get a lot of pool for their money and may choose not to come back the 2nd day and thats fine. It wont hurt the tournament at all.

 

[Island Drive]

I dont want a late night burn out of any kind and if you plan right there isnt one. I do understand what you mean by 2 events but I liked the way that the event I ran ended early enough on Saturday night for people to socialize and play and then come back Sunday to watch the finals. If you have big names playing it helps the room owner sell food and drinks. At lot of spectators came back on Sunday because they knew the finals wouldnt be late Sunday ending.

Different areas of the country obviously have different situations. In our neck of the woods its not like that. If you show up Sunday 11am its mostly Just the final 16 Players or the ones guarantee some winnings. I've Rarely seen others just come to watch, unless its the hard core EZZZZZZ and such.

 

[Roger Long]

Right, and if I hear your pool room is having a tournament, drive to your pool room on Saturday and am told I can't play because I didn't sign up a week in advance what kind of an impression do you think I have of your pool room? Do I have to sign up a week in advance to get a hamburger and fries?

The tournament can be two things. It can be a way to promote the room to more than just the regulars who are in there every day or it can be limited to the regulars and unfriendly to outsiders. If the room is swimming in cash from the regulars then by all means make it difficult for outsiders to play there.

I remember the first 9 ball tournament I played in - handicapped tournament. My opponent was a regular in the place and he was explaining the rules of 9 ball to me. I was rated a stronger player than him. Every week a regular won the tournament. Eventually the only people who showed up for the tournament were the regulars and it went from a weekly to a monthly tournament because they couldn't attract enough people to have a tournament every week. If there are options people will go to the place where they are treated the best.

If I advertised and promoted my tournament properly you wouldn't have to rely on hearsay; you would have all the correct information in advance.

If I was running a two-day tournament, this is what I'd want to be able to do: I'd want to be able to guarantee reliable start and end times. I'd also want to be able to post all match times in advance so that the players could arrange their own schedules around that. And I'd also want to be able to end play early enough on Saturday night so that all players returning on Sunday would have the opportunity to get plenty of rest. But the only way I could guarantee all that is to A) limit the field, B) require early registration, and C) do the draw on Friday night so that the tournament could start right on time on Saturday. This is no different than the way all national amateur championships and big pro events are run.

Now it wouldn't matter what kind of a format I used to accomplish this. The most important thing would be to provide something that everyone could count on.

Roger

 

[336Robin]

Friday Night Draw

If I advertised and promoted my tournament properly you wouldn't have to rely on hearsay; you would have all the correct information in advance.

If I was running a two-day tournament, this is what I'd want to be able to do: I'd want to be able to guarantee reliable start and end times. I'd also want to be able to post all match times in advance so that the players could arrange their own schedules around that. And I'd also want to be able to end play early enough on Saturday night so that all players returning on Sunday would have the opportunity to get plenty of rest. But the only way I could guarantee all that is to A) limit the field, B) require early registration, and C) do the draw on Friday night so that the tournament could start right on time on Saturday. This is no different than the way all national amateur championships and big pro events are run.

Now it wouldn't matter what kind of a format I used to accomplish this. The most important thing would be to provide something that everyone could count on.

Roger

Roger,
When I helped run the WPBA event at Mooresville a couple years ago that is exactly what they did. It was a Friday Night Draw. It was an East Coast Qualifier and they did know how many players each tour was allotted. I do think it would be a tough thing to get going but I have to agree with you. Its one of those things that you have make people learn to count on. Like a dress code, ethics code that I think it should go further than that and include and courtesy. The courtesy being if the room serves food then you should do your food business there. If the guy adds money to the pot he wants your business and its an insult to go across the street. Some things are worth paying for and that is one of them in my book.

 

[chevybob20]

I like the Joss Tour format, double elimination race to 9, winner breaks.
A race to 3 or 5, or 2 out of 3 sets is for ballbangers, as is the handicapped tournaments. If you don't have the stones to step up to the plate, don't get in.

Which reminds me of a thought I had the other day; Do we spoil pool players or not ask enough of them? My son signs up for a golf tournament I have to have the check to them at least 7 days prior, he gets a tee time (could be 7am), we don't show up ontime, guess what.

If I were to recommend that all pool players have to register and pay for weekend tournaments no later than then the Wed prior and the tournament was going to start at 9am with all match times for day being scheduled out, I would be told I'm out of my freakin mind, lol and they would be right but that's just because we accept the same old same old, maybe its time we step it up a bit?

Exactly. Then you would gradually change the type of players that you deal with at tournys for the better.

 

[Bob Jewett]

That's not a bad plan at all. I always felt that multiply single elimination boards was a simple solution. Im going to have to go over this one in my mind. I like it and its pretty simple. Buy back has been discussed around here for some time but no one really knew how to negotiate using the pools as you suggest. Its sort of a cross over using principles of round robin but taking less time. Not a bad plan at all. Thanks Bob.

Some other points:

There is no reason you couldn't have a number of minis for the locals before the weekend. You could also run some minis on Friday night, but you might want to limit that to get more table time into the cash register.

You can also do groups of 16 if you have a very large number of players and tables. One problem is that if the tournament is not handicapped and Shane just signed up, you might not get signups for a while. Or, some might want to be in Shane's group.

For a scratch tournament, I think it's better to have two groups to draw the new signups into so no one knows for sure who they will be playing from who is on the list. You can also work with just a group and a half with the "remainders" seeded into the next group.

The entry fee can be about half of the entry fee for a DE tournament. That will allow some weak players to get their feet wet for half price. If they feel good about how they played, they might try a second time.

Players can enter a large number of times. I've seen one player get in five times. He had to be there early and stay late, but he finally won a group.

You can also use this format for a one-day tournament. You can do 128 entries (which is about 50 bodies) on 16 tables in one day with races to about 6.

Once a group starts to play, they play straight through without any waiting except for an opponent to finish his match. Among other things, that frees the "losers" in that group to buy back.

Once you figure out how long matches take on average, you can predict pretty well how often new groups will start, assuming you're keeping the tables full. That allows you to tell sign-ups about when their group will start. They can also listen for which group is starting so they know how many group starts it will be until their group.

For the final single elimination among the qualified players, the only waiting should be a brief break between matches for the slower player for the next round. If matches are on eight tables, and they take about an hour and a half, you could start on Sunday at 1PM with 32 finalists and be done by 11PM with an hour for dinner.

 

[336Robin]

Single Elimination BuyBack

Some other points:

There is no reason you couldn't have a number of minis for the locals before the weekend. You could also run some minis on Friday night, but you might want to limit that to get more table time into the cash register.

You can also do groups of 16 if you have a very large number of players and tables. One problem is that if the tournament is not handicapped and Shane just signed up, you might not get signups for a while. Or, some might want to be in Shane's group.

For a scratch tournament, I think it's better to have two groups to draw the new signups into so no one knows for sure who they will be playing from who is on the list. You can also work with just a group and a half with the "remainders" seeded into the next group.

The entry fee can be about half of the entry fee for a DE tournament. That will allow some weak players to get their feet wet for half price. If they feel good about how they played, they might try a second time.

Players can enter a large number of times. I've seen one player get in five times. He had to be there early and stay late, but he finally won a group.

You can also use this format for a one-day tournament. You can do 128 entries (which is about 50 bodies) on 16 tables in one day with races to about 6.

Once a group starts to play, they play straight through without any waiting except for an opponent to finish his match. Among other things, that frees the "losers" in that group to buy back.

Once you figure out how long matches take on average, you can predict pretty well how often new groups will start, assuming you're keeping the tables full. That allows you to tell sign-ups about when their group will start. They can also listen for which group is starting so they know how many group starts it will be until their group.

For the final single elimination among the qualified players, the only waiting should be a brief break between matches for the slower player for the next round. If matches are on eight tables, and they take about an hour and a half, you could start on Sunday at 1PM with 32 finalists and be done by 11PM with an hour for dinner.

Bob,
If I have this right in my mind basically you have a start time. Then you start registering players into groups of 8=4 tables, then 2 tables then 1 table as you run through it. People registered in other groups of 8 would grab tables as they could and play their boards out and they can enter multiple times as they would like to enter until its over. I see what you were talking about in an earlier post about them having time to eat between boards and that other boards would be starting later.

So the winners of each group progress onto a final Single Elimination board for a Finals? So you play these individual groups on a Saturday all day and then Sunday you do the final Single Elimination Board. In my mind I see a 16 person Single Elimination board on a Sunday and this board is the result of 16 separate 8 man Single Elimination boards run on a Saturday the day before it.

I see each board taking the time that 3 consecutive races would take whatever length those races were to 4, 5 or 6 as you suggest. Yes that's pretty predictable and lets you control how late you decide to stay out. There is a lot of good points to this format and you can have longer races and sort of predict the times. Have I missed anything here?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob,
If I have this right in my mind basically you have a start time. Then you start registering players into groups of 8=4 tables, then 2 tables then 1 table as you run through it. People registered in other groups of 8 would grab tables as they could and play their boards out and they can enter multiple times as they would like to enter until its over. I see what you were talking about in an earlier post about them having time to eat between boards and that other boards would be starting later.

So the winners of each group progress onto a final Single Elimination board for a Finals? So you play these individual groups on a Saturday all day and then Sunday you do the final Single Elimination Board. In my mind I see a 16 person Single Elimination board on a Sunday and this board is the result of 16 separate 8 man Single Elimination boards run on a Saturday the day before it.

I see each board taking the time that 3 consecutive races would take whatever length those races were to 4, 5 or 6 as you suggest. Yes that's pretty predictable and lets you control how late you decide to stay out. There is a lot of good points to this format and you can have longer races and sort of predict the times. Have I missed anything here?

No, that's pretty much how it works.

Usually there will be some slowing of signups towards the end of the minis, but in a room context that's good because it releases tables for paid play.

This format can also be used for a one-day tournament with the main tournament starting at 7 or 8 PM if you use short matches. All but the final 16 will be done by 7PM.

 

[336Robin]

No, that's pretty much how it works.

Usually there will be some slowing of signups towards the end of the minis, but in a room context that's good because it releases tables for paid play.

This format can also be used for a one-day tournament with the main tournament starting at 7 or 8 PM if you use short matches. All but the final 16 will be done by 7PM.

Bob,
After some thought I see what you are talking about here, you enter as many times as you like for say $10 a board and you get as many shots at it as you care to have in a days time. This puts the player who regularly goes 2 and Out in a position where he can get his pool fix and has a better chance to get to the finals and if you just aren't playing well you get to head home when you want to or you go eat and come back when you want to.

This takes the task of having to divide the Round Robins up away because you are going to have odd numbers of players and different sized pools to accommodate them. Its also simple to use. You run single elimination boards and truthfully I would guess you could run them in groups of 4,6, 8 or 10 it wouldn't matter then declare winners that earn the right to play the final board and you could even the finals Double Elimination if you wanted to.

Sure its Single Elimination but there are multiple chances at it and once you learn to Regulate the Races and the time it takes to run a board, you have some real flexibility to decide not to play but so late and then come back tomorrow.

You truly have something here. This is a great way to run a tournament.
Thanks for speaking up.

 

[336Robin]

How to Do Things

Bob,

This is a Time of Change in Pool and I see that we are discussing ideas that could become popular with the Amateurs themselves which are the driving force behind the popularity of the game/sport.

When I saw how well the Modified Round Robin worked out I saw that there was a lot to like about it but its definitely something you do in a 2 day event and you have to know ahead of time how many you are going to allow in and leave the guy some tables for Regular Customers. I think that is probably not a bad idea anyway.

How many tables are being used for the tournament you are playing? In the room I am thinking of using I will start out needing 12 tables for 3 boards of 8 players. How many do you I could accommodate if I start at around 2ish at the latest?

I would likely have my first board ready to start by 1ish because as soon as I get some people in that want to start I would get 8 man board ready when I have enough there to do a luck of the draw.

 

[Island Drive]

Bob,

This is a Time of Change in Pool and I see that we are discussing ideas that could become popular with the Amateurs themselves which are the driving force behind the popularity of the game/sport.

When I saw how well the Modified Round Robin worked out I saw that there was a lot to like about it but its definitely something you do in a 2 day event and you have to know ahead of time how many you are going to allow in and leave the guy some tables for Regular Customers. I think that is probably not a bad idea anyway.

How many tables are being used for the tournament you are playing? In the room I am thinking of using I will start out needing 12 tables for 3 boards of 8 players. How many do you I could accommodate if I start at around 2ish at the latest?

I would likely have my first board ready to start by 1ish because as soon as I get some people in that want to start I would get 8 man board ready when I have enough there to do a luck of the draw.

Also, keep and open mind about weeknights, off league nights for the working/family/parenting. Just one round and compile it with others. Business owners would profit, and so would those that utilize most weekends for other matters. At the core of APA play, I've heard, you can show up, play your needed games and leave, other leagues are designed to keep you there, sometimes depending on the score, easily past midnight. Yuck....

 

[justadub]

Also, keep and open mind about weeknights, off league nights for the working/family/parenting. Just one round and compile it with others. Business owners would profit, and so would those that utilize most weekends for other matters. At the core of APA play, I've heard, you can show up, play your needed games and leave, other leagues are designed to keep you there, sometimes depending on the score, easily past midnight. Yuck....

You "can" play and leave, but it doesn't go over well with your other teammates....of course, situations dictate sometimes. Most of the people on most of our teams are there most of the night.

 

[336Robin]

You "can" play and leave, but it doesn't go over well with your other teammates....of course, situations dictate sometimes. Most of the people on most of our teams are there most of the night.

Neither one of these would be affected placement wise if you left when you wanted to. Neither would require you burn the midnight oil unless you wanted to.

As a TD I wouldn't want to and wouldn't plan it that way.

 

[Island Drive]

You "can" play and leave, but it doesn't go over well with your other teammates....of course, situations dictate sometimes. Most of the people on most of our teams are there most of the night.

Hey, your dealing with pool players, when does Anything go over WELL....just sayin' . They even whine about the grapes in Napa Valley :thumbup:...sp/wine