9-Ball Position Play (What kind of english to use)
- Thread starter Kris_b1104
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As others have said, it's not about where the cue ball is being struck by a Pro on a certain shot as much as it is how the shot is being executed. If you don't have the same stoke and delivery, your cue ball isn't going to react the same as the Pro's you saw in the video. You'll need to practice according to the stroke you have now and adjust as your stroke improves. This only comes with table time. I would definitely save some funds to take a lesson from a qualified instructor that can point you in the right direction on areas of your stoke you need to work on and how to work on them.
Thank you.
Really appreciate all the great advice. Definitely will invest in more table time, and note my findings with some trial and error.
Really appreciate all the great advice. Definitely will invest in more table time, and note my findings with some trial and error.
dude let me tell you; I've taken lessons from CJ. If you don't take him up on this you might as well go back to what your're doing and forget about getting better. He will show you the way...
In my opinion, diagrams of "exact" spots to hit the cue ball can misleading as there are so many variables that will govern how the spin will affect the cue balls path. The angle that the cue travels off of the ball alone can very by how thick you hit the obect ball, the tangent line off of the object ball, the angle that the cue ball is traveling towards the rail, how hard the cue ball is struck, etc...
Learning the feel of the shot is much more easily learnt by containing variables.
When I started try to understand using english, I started doing a drill that was a lot of fun and almost like a shortcut to figuring this out. I set up a shot and marked the spots with reinforcement stickers or chalk so that I could play the exact same shot every time. I placed the cue ball and object ball on their spots, used a third ball as my target and start shoot ing the shot, trying to hit the third ball with the cue. Within three or four shots, you'll get a feel for what kind of English you need to make contact with the third ball. After you've figured it out so you can dependably hit it, you move the third ball to a new location. I recommend moving it progressively from one side of the shot across the table to the other side. You will really get to develop a feel for that particular shot quite quickly.
Once you feel like you've mastered that shot, try just moving the cue ball to a different position so that the angle changes (becoming either a more thick or thin hit). And do the drill all over, progressively moving the target ball across the table. As the angle changes, the type of English changes pretty dramatically quick.
Doing this sort of practice with several different shots has really moved my position play forward quite dramatically. I found it deepened my understanding and intuition for how to predictably use any spin faster than any other drills that I've done.
Anyhow, I hope that useful to someone.
Learning the feel of the shot is much more easily learnt by containing variables.
When I started try to understand using english, I started doing a drill that was a lot of fun and almost like a shortcut to figuring this out. I set up a shot and marked the spots with reinforcement stickers or chalk so that I could play the exact same shot every time. I placed the cue ball and object ball on their spots, used a third ball as my target and start shoot ing the shot, trying to hit the third ball with the cue. Within three or four shots, you'll get a feel for what kind of English you need to make contact with the third ball. After you've figured it out so you can dependably hit it, you move the third ball to a new location. I recommend moving it progressively from one side of the shot across the table to the other side. You will really get to develop a feel for that particular shot quite quickly.
Once you feel like you've mastered that shot, try just moving the cue ball to a different position so that the angle changes (becoming either a more thick or thin hit). And do the drill all over, progressively moving the target ball across the table. As the angle changes, the type of English changes pretty dramatically quick.
Doing this sort of practice with several different shots has really moved my position play forward quite dramatically. I found it deepened my understanding and intuition for how to predictably use any spin faster than any other drills that I've done.
Anyhow, I hope that useful to someone.
Like many a young player, you have the horse way before the cart.
I understand fully your wish to be able to 'run out' like the pros.
Don't we all. But it is painfully obvious from your post that you are
far from ready to accomplish run outs on a regular basis.
First - forget about 9 Ball, forget about english, forget about running out.
Learn where the cue ball will go with center ball for any given shot.
This is an absolute must - if you want to be a run out player in less than
20 years. Good news - you can learn more than enough to get you
started, online, and, for free.
DR Dave, and Bob Jewett both have execellent sites just brimming with
info, examples, drills, tests and explainations.
Once you have an understanding of cueball paths - then you are ready to
learn when and how to modify them, along with choosing patterns and
how to choose the best route(s).
This is not a 30 day project. It takes lots of time and practice to become
a decent pool player.
Dale
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Position play
Do you have the 99 Critical Shots in Pool book? To me, that is the place to start. He shows you a shot and where to hit the cue ball to make it go in certain directions. From there it will be trial and error with speed, etc. I also recently started watching Bert Kinister's stuff and it is pretty good. He has about 27 or 28 key shots you need to know and master and then all shots are variations of those. I've just started it but it is pretty good.
I think CJ's TOI has a lot of merit. I've watched the videos and practiced with it and I really like it. The problem I have is going from TOI to playing all inside English. There is a huge difference (I think,LOL). I wanted to take lessons from CJ when he came through Atlanta but I got busy at work and couldn't make it work. I'm going to keep working on it as well and I'll get up with him one day. I'd definitely take him up on his offer to help.
Do you have the 99 Critical Shots in Pool book? To me, that is the place to start. He shows you a shot and where to hit the cue ball to make it go in certain directions. From there it will be trial and error with speed, etc. I also recently started watching Bert Kinister's stuff and it is pretty good. He has about 27 or 28 key shots you need to know and master and then all shots are variations of those. I've just started it but it is pretty good.
I think CJ's TOI has a lot of merit. I've watched the videos and practiced with it and I really like it. The problem I have is going from TOI to playing all inside English. There is a huge difference (I think,LOL). I wanted to take lessons from CJ when he came through Atlanta but I got busy at work and couldn't make it work. I'm going to keep working on it as well and I'll get up with him one day. I'd definitely take him up on his offer to help.
Thanks a lot, heading to the pool hall in an hour to try this out! I've been playing for over a year now and occasionally run out in 8 ball, but that's a completely different game because you can hit whichever ball you want and if you get out of line on a shot, there's always another shot. But I'm trying to improve my game in 9 ball where precision and english is more crucial.
Thanks for the advice, I've watched a lot of DR Dave videos and he's very informational and insightful. I do consider myself a decent player as I can run out once in a while in 8 ball, but my 9 ball game lacks the pinpoint position play that I need, 8 ball is not as crucial.
I was just looking for diagrams of a normal 9 ball diagram and showing what english to use to get to the next ball so I can lay them out on the table in the same fashion and duplicate the run out. Heading to the pool hall in an hour for some table time and I'll take into consideration what you've said.
Yeah CJ has my respect and he is extremely insightful, however I don't like the idea of a completely different aiming system when I'm already used to mine. But he is in the process of sending me some videos to improve my game.
I think I understand what you're asking. You want to know where they are hitting the cueball. You think you know where they are hitting the cueball, but the path isn't the same as yours.
But, you'll get a lot of helpful guidance from people who are in the same boat. 99% of players are in the same boat.
I think this is probably the best time to lean on a professional player for guidance because I believe your question is specifically on what the pros do as you're watching them. That's not to discount the top instructors who teach fundamentals and best practices, but aren't pro players. But, I think you're wondering something that is fair question: where are the pros hitting the balls. Anyone who dismisses this I don't think understands what you're asking. If I misunderstand, that's cool, too. I'm wrong plenty of times.
- Use english.
- Use the tip to control your path (that's paraphrased from CJ Wiley).
- The bread and butter shots of 9-ball include the blended use of english and speed to bring your cueball to and through the center of the table (that's from Jerry Brieseth).
Jerry had one of those short teaching clinics and I was his Guinea Pig shooters. By him telling me where to aim the tip to the cueball, he taught me more about "what the pros do when they try to get there" than I've learned from even watching pros closeup. Hitting a million balls and reading this forum never got me that information. And now what I think I saw with pros makes more sense.
My advice... you're in NY. You've got Fran Crimi and Tony Robles. Ask them about one shot you're thinking about and see what they show you. And you can PM me for a tip.
Freddie <~~~ and listen to CJ
We may have differing ideas of what "decent" is, but if you run out in 8 Ball
even once in a while after only 1 year of playing, that is pretty encouraging...
However, if you can't tell what english to use after watching a shot on a
video, there just seems to be something wrong with that picture.
Here is a thought... do your own diagrams!!
Find a layout on utube that you have questions about - and diagram the
sequence of shots - then you will have something to lay on the table as
a reference.
If you encounter a shot(s) you just can't duplicate, there is a good tool
you could diagram on this forum and ask for advice on how to execute it.
A tablet would be soooo today - but there is always paper and a number 2
pencil... kinda like a clay tablet, only thinner.
Dale(who blaspheimes to propose old methods of data transportation)
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Lol I was making my own diagrams as I opened this thread, but thanks a lot! I know what I'm asking is pretty amateur and redundant but sometimes I see something and I try it out and it most definitely does not turn out the way I thought, therefore coming to the conclusion that I'm applying the wrong type of english to the shot or maybe a tip more or less.
Also, I'm asking for better run out routes because I want to know what's the simplest way to get to the next ball without making too much of an error. Let's say I have a thin cut on a ball and my next ball is way down table, do I use inside english and go 3 rails or use outside english and go 2, stupid little things like that bother me.
You can get most of the information you are looking for by watching the reaction of the cueball after it contacts the object ball and the first cushion.
The X axis is quite simple. Use the angle-in = angle-out principal to get an idea of what a "dead ball" would do when it strikes the rail, and work from there. If the cueball angle lengthens or if the cueball gains speed after the first cushion, typically that means running/outside english. If the angle shortens, or if the cueball loses speed, that typically means reverse/inside english.
The Y axis is much more difficult, since there are infinite spin/speed combinations that will produce a stop shot. All you can determine for sure is what the cueball was doing when it hit the object ball. Use the tangent line as a guide: cueball following tangent line = sliding cueball; cueball moving forward of tangent line = rolling or following; backward from tangent line = spinning backward or drawing. The difficulty of knowing where the cueball was struck on the Y axis lies in the fact that a player can cue for maximum draw and still achieve a sliding or even rolling cueball at contact if they hit it the right speed. In those cases, the cuetip says draw, but the reaction of the cueball says otherwise.
Good luck,
Aaron
The X axis is quite simple. Use the angle-in = angle-out principal to get an idea of what a "dead ball" would do when it strikes the rail, and work from there. If the cueball angle lengthens or if the cueball gains speed after the first cushion, typically that means running/outside english. If the angle shortens, or if the cueball loses speed, that typically means reverse/inside english.
The Y axis is much more difficult, since there are infinite spin/speed combinations that will produce a stop shot. All you can determine for sure is what the cueball was doing when it hit the object ball. Use the tangent line as a guide: cueball following tangent line = sliding cueball; cueball moving forward of tangent line = rolling or following; backward from tangent line = spinning backward or drawing. The difficulty of knowing where the cueball was struck on the Y axis lies in the fact that a player can cue for maximum draw and still achieve a sliding or even rolling cueball at contact if they hit it the right speed. In those cases, the cuetip says draw, but the reaction of the cueball says otherwise.
Good luck,
Aaron
I'd say you are on the right track. Don't overlook the possibility that
you may not have enough "stroke" to do what a pro player does on some
shots - lord knows I don't and I'm a little better than decent... on a good
day - IMHO.
The 2 rail vs 3 rail question is more than a stupid little thing.
There is a concept in position play called "maximizing the margin of error"
which along with "staying on the line" may well be the MOST important
concept in position play.
Good luck with your efforts.
Dale
I don't know how long you have been playing or if your stroke is reliable yet but I'll give you some advice because I remember being in this situation.
the very first day I decided to learn how to play, I have been taught how to do a stop shot,draw, follow, what happens to the cue ball after it contacted the rail with side spin and deflection. Two weeks after that, my teacher at the time would make me break a rack of 9-ball and then I had to run it with the right to replay the shot(we used markers) I was faced with until I made it with acceptable position. But before I could attempt to make thr ball, I had to explain him what I wanted the cueball to do for position and how I was planning to do it and then he would correct me because I didn't know anything and then I realized that even with all this information, I had no stroke.
He'd tell me "hit this shot at 10' clock" but since I didn't have the timing of a good stroke to make that 10 o clock behave like a real 10 o clock it didnt matter. My "10h" back then isnt tbe same as my "10h" of today.
My point is a good stroke it vital to be able to execute the shot you decided to attempt so if you're a new player with no stroke, don't give up and don't think that it won't click eventually. You might be faced with a shot requiring bottom outside but that is very vague as there is so much finesse as every shot is different.
the very first day I decided to learn how to play, I have been taught how to do a stop shot,draw, follow, what happens to the cue ball after it contacted the rail with side spin and deflection. Two weeks after that, my teacher at the time would make me break a rack of 9-ball and then I had to run it with the right to replay the shot(we used markers) I was faced with until I made it with acceptable position. But before I could attempt to make thr ball, I had to explain him what I wanted the cueball to do for position and how I was planning to do it and then he would correct me because I didn't know anything and then I realized that even with all this information, I had no stroke.
He'd tell me "hit this shot at 10' clock" but since I didn't have the timing of a good stroke to make that 10 o clock behave like a real 10 o clock it didnt matter. My "10h" back then isnt tbe same as my "10h" of today.
My point is a good stroke it vital to be able to execute the shot you decided to attempt so if you're a new player with no stroke, don't give up and don't think that it won't click eventually. You might be faced with a shot requiring bottom outside but that is very vague as there is so much finesse as every shot is different.
I think your looking for an easy answer, a click of the mouse so to speak, but that does not apply to life or real pool, you only get what ''you play for'' and nothing more or less. What I feel your asking is your mind is trying to understand what left, right, high, low do to each shot, But the subtleties of spin, the transition of a spinning ball to a less spinning ball to a swerving spinning ball to a cue ball that is in transition from off center to natural roll only comes from Hours and hours of play. When you Truly understand these aspects of each shot you begin to get the feel and learn your limits, develop muscle memory then your mistakes will be realized, they are NOT simple. Try this, set up a simple cut shot into the corner pocket, a shot you would Never miss, unless shape created extreme cue ball speed. Tap in the spot where the cue ball will lie and do the same for the object ball. Next shoot the object ball in and use 12 o'clock high, from there using the same swing speed gradually lower the tip and work you way towards center ball. Mark the first spot the cue ball ended up at and the last spot the cue ball ended up, what you'll notice is the extreme difference the cue ball angle off the rail will be with out ENGLISH. Also, humidity, dirty and cloth wear effect every shot, & carom from table to table from room to room.
Next try the same shot using MORE speed and less speed....center ball.
You made this statement....''pretty much know where they're trying to go and what is the best route''....But do you know why?
Learning the subtleties of cue ball actions are critical, I'd seek out a good instructor. If your even in CO look me up, via here.
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Great. Let us know how you find the practice technique.
I sometimes tire of running set drills and like to find ways to mix things up but still keep it constructive. A variation on this drill is to grab the cue ball and 2 other balls and randomly throw them onto the table at the same time and hard enough so that they bounce of a rail or two and land in a random pattern. Then pick one ball to shoot in and have the cue ball hit the other object ball. It keeps the practice varied and engaging and you will sometimes come up with some patterns you wouldn't normally see in a drill.
It's cheaper in the long run to take lessons now.