9-Ball Position Play (What kind of english to use)

[Kris_b1104]

I'm new to the forum and can already see CJ is constantly being ganged up on, why the constant bashing of someone trying to help someone else? I'm pretty sure if Shane came on here and wrote endless amounts of techniques and advice to improve your game nobody would accuse him of trying to "sell" his instructional series. You guys take this forum for granted, CJ is a champion and he has even shipped out free videos for me to improve my game, that deserves nothing but respect. Give the guy a break.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I'm new to the forum and can already see CJ is constantly being ganged up on, why the constant bashing of someone trying to help someone else?

Because MOST of them ain't got anything better to do, I guess. I'm pretty sure that some of them are pissed because they ain't making a dime off pool in ANY manner and they are jealous that somebody is actually trying to promote pool and make some money at the same time.

I'm NOT encouraging ANYONE on here to buy or do ANYTHING that I HAVEN'T tried first and I'm saying that almost EVERYTHING CJ has said on here or shown in some of his various video clips WORKS for ME. It may NEVER work for ANYBODY else, but I can relate to almost everything he is saying. Maybe it is because I am OLD SCHOOL and worked in a pool hall for years as a teen and have observed and played this style of pool. For the record, I have NEVER bought ANY pool instructional ANYTHING off here or ANYWHERE so I'm not writing this for fame or fortune or to promote ANYTHING other than KNOWLEDGE (what little I have) I have tried and found to work.

I think the problem people are having with CJ's method is it is "TOO DAMN SIMPLE" and people CAN'T understand it. In order to understand it, you must be able to see "natural" angles...NOT angles that have been enhanced or decreased by English. Whether English that has been applied to the ball by the cue tip or natural English that the ball has picked up from coming off a rail...or a combination thereof.

What you need to see is "FLAT" angles..."PURE" angles. In order for an angle to be "PURE" it must come off the rail FLAT.

The reason pool looks so EASY on TV is that most of the shots are being taken from an angle ABOVE the table...looking STRAIGHT down or close to it. The reason is looks so easy on TV is because it looks FLAT. If the viewers were looking at the game from the shooter's eye, it would look like a TOTALLY different game. That is why when they see the shooter use English it "WOWs" them...it is DIFFERENT and SEXY...it looks really cool and everybody wants to learn it. What they really don't know is that the times the pros are slamming the balls into the pocket with authority and staying in line is the time they are MOST in line and using the LEAST English.

To put it a bit SIMPLER. You use English to "fix a flat" (get back in line). In this case it is better to keep driving on a flat. As long as you are driving "flat" and having NO PROBLEMS, you don't need to "fix" anything (put English). Maybe people should learn to drive "flat" before they are EVER taught to use English. I think that is the problem people are having with it. They learned English before they learned "angles".

 

[Cornerman]

stay in line and all you need is top or bottom.

Ridiculous advice.

 

[Straightpool_99]

..................

 

[Straightpool_99]

..................

 

[HawaiianEye]

Ah, a fellow snooker enthusiast. I agree, it is perfectly possible to hit the ball in the center most of the time. It's just so damned hard:frown: I did try TOI for a while and had a hard time with it. Ironically I could not hit the ball accurately enough for it to work, but I can hit center ball most of the time. I guess it just wasn't for me.

I have worked a lot on my stroke since then, and my coach, who primarely coaches snooker says that I have a pretty good stroke now, for a pool player. That may sound like an insult, but coming from him its pretty high praise, actually:grin:

I think the reason I was able to see it and pick it up quite easily was that I played snooker very well before I ever took the effort to learn pool well. The ONLY reason I went to pool from snooker is that there was money to be made in pool at the time and NOTHING to be made in snooker where I lived. VERY few places even had a snooker table. Quite the OPPOSITE of Europe where the snooker kings live.

 

[CJ Wiley]

there's nothing to lose.....and everything to win.

Using "no spin", "dead ball', "floating ball", "TOI", or whatever you want to call it enables you to stay in line more consistently if you ask me. If you are using this method, the ONLY spin or English you will ever need to use is when you get out of line. Otherwise you are using TOI with top or bottom.

That's correct, it's refreshing to hear from someone that understands TOI....most of the "critics" have never even tried to practice 'The TOUCH of Inside" for the suggested 3 hours.

Just like anything, food, drinks, entertainment, sports techniques, etc. "if you don't try it you won't know that it works".... there's nothing to lose.....and everything to win.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

We just offer help to those that want it and ignore those that don't.

I'm new to the forum and can already see CJ is constantly being ganged up on, why the constant bashing of someone trying to help someone else? I'm pretty sure if Shane came on here and wrote endless amounts of techniques and advice to improve your game nobody would accuse him of trying to "sell" his instructional series. You guys take this forum for granted, CJ is a champion and he has even shipped out free videos for me to improve my game, that deserves nothing but respect. Give the guy a break.

You're right, it is odd. I was told it would happen from the very beginning and I'm still not sure why it must be this way.....after all, it's none of my business how people react, We just offer help to those that want it and ignore those that don't....very simple, very easy.

'The Game is Our Teacher'

You're DVD was sent out today and will be there on Monday or Tuesday.....Enjoy.

 

[pdcue]

Let me put it this way. If you have a Pro player tell you exactly where he hits the cue ball every time I'll give him the 7 playing 9 Ball (Shane included).....any rules, on any table.

If he's wrong in accurately communicating where he hits the cue ball he loses his turn.

What you're going to discover is the Champion players aren't concerned with {exactly} where they hit the cue ball, they care about the response they get off the object ball......this is why I like the Touch of Inside, because the response off the cue ball has NO SPIN.....this creates natural angles and aligns to my subconscious congruently...which enables super high levels to be reached. If someone does it another way that's fine, I'm describing how I have done it to get the effective results achieved.

'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ, this may well be just a matter of semantics. I must admit I have a bit
of trouble signing on to the idea that the best players in the world have
no idea where they are hitting the cue ball. However... if your intent is to
convey that expert players don't even THINK about where to hit the
cue ball, I'm in full agreement.

Even I don't worry about precisely where my tip will contact the CB
because, I no longer have to. My mental process is more like -
"I need for the CB to do... whatever... on this shot, so, I hit it this way"
.....................................................

Upon further consideration... to clarify, as a beginer and intermediate player,
I spent a lot of shot clock time calculating that I should strike the CB
about 9/16 ths of a tip right, and 7/32 nds below, center. That is what
I no longer need to do.
......................................................

It was getting to the point that I could use that approach, that allowed
me to change from a 'permanently intermediate' player to an advanced
one.

Dale(inactively advanced cue sports enthusiast)

 

[pdcue]

I'm back from the pool hall and I got a good couple hours of practice, it was short, but sweet nonetheless. I've figured out that I don't practice nearly as much as I play 8ball with my friends. They're not as competitive as I am and every time I suggest playing 9ball they say it's boring. I'll continue to practice on my own to get better, since practice is what my idol SVB preaches.

So I went to the pool hall, with diagrams and looseleaf reinforcements and all, my first hour I used 2 reinforcements and placed the object ball and cue ball to set up a cut shot. I used center ball about 10 times in a row to see where the cue ball lands without any english, then I tried every other type of english, and surprisingly enough I found interesting results. Though the pool staff looked at me like I was crazy for putting reinforcements on the table.

My problem was that because I was only playing with my friends, I would go up and take a shot and when I miss I would go back and sit down, never understanding why I missed and what needed to be done to correct it. Practicing on my own really helps in that aspect as I got to see every single possibility of outcome(using the same speed of course).

During the next hour I threw out 2 balls randomly as someone above suggested and tried pocketing one ball while hitting the other ball afterwards with the cue ball. This was a much harder exercise and I only hit it about 20 out of 50 times.

The next 30 minutes I took out my diagrams of some of my favorite 9 ball match layouts and wrote down what the pro did on every shot and tried my best to duplicate. 30 minutes later and I was adding my own spin to it, no pun intended. I was choosing my own routes and still getting out. So I decided to kick it up a notch.

I spent my last hour playing the 4 ball ghost. Then moved to the 6 ball ghost after having no trouble, Next thing you know I'm up 4 games and then I missed. Decided to call it a day.

I feel with this regimen of practice, I'll get better in no time. I'm only 20 years of age and my goal is to become a B level player or close to it for now. I just need A LOT of practice and less friendly playing. Thank you all for the wonderful advice and let me know some of your thoughts about my practice.

Congratulations Grasshopper, you've just stepped onto the tip of the
iceberg - it can be a great ride.

Dale

 

[chevybob20]

The Pro Book

Absolutely

"The Pro Book" is the most underrated instructional book on the market. If you can't afford instructions, buy this book.

 

[hang-the-9]

Thanks a lot, heading to the pool hall in an hour to try this out! I've been playing for over a year now and occasionally run out in 8 ball, but that's a completely different game because you can hit whichever ball you want and if you get out of line on a shot, there's always another shot. But I'm trying to improve my game in 9 ball where precision and english is more crucial.

If you've only been playing a year, unless you've been playing every day for a few hours, don't bother worrying about not being able to shoot certain shots right now. It would be like skating for a week than asking why you can't do a flip even though you watched them on TV.

If you don't know anyone that owns an AccuStats video, you probably need to find some good players to hang around with and should take some lessons, or at least get a few instructional videos.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This technique can be learned if the player is willing to do what it takes to learn.

I would not wish to communicate that we have "no idea where we're hitting the cue ball"......of course we have some idea, it's just not what we are thinking about when we play the game. As a matter of fact it's destructive to think about such things while competing.

At some point in your playing career the "cue ball and mind become one".....the cue ball does what we think.....the thought of hitting 5 degrees down on the vertical axis and 8 degrees over on the horizontal axis is NOT what I would recommend.

When I teach TOI I'm basically BLENDING the shot speed, the cue ball targeting and the angle creation into ONE system of play. TOI is NOT an aiming system, it's an overall playing system.

No matter what "system" you use the variables are the same....you must choose where you're hitting the cue ball, what speed you're using on the shot and what process you're using to create the angle to make the ball in the pocket.......this is universally true for every player who has ever played the game.

In the TOI Technique you will favor one side of center, you will use one consistent shot speed, and you will create the angle by aligning center/center or center/edge. Of course there's small adjustments you have to make to your shot speed and if you need to change the angle of the cue ball off the rail you will need to use "outside english".

The "TOUCH" of inside is about playing the game by feel. When we favor the same side of center and incorporate the same shot speed, and angle creation it frees our minds to "Feel Better".

This equates to "Playing Better" because we are making less calculations and giving ourselves LESS choices. If you KNOW what type of shot to use 95% you will have an advantage, and more than that you will enjoy and get more satisfaction out of the Game......the Game will do for you something more than you can do for it......give you a feeling of self expression...."the game and player will become one"

In other words this is like a musical reading music note by note, OR playing by ear and allowing the music to play through them. With TOI you will get the sensation that the game is playing through you, with very little though required consciously.

This technique can be learned if the player is willing to do what it takes to learn.

'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ, this may well be just a matter of semantics. I must admit I have a bit
of trouble signing on to the idea that the best players in the world have
no idea where they are hitting the cue ball. However... if your intent is to
convey that expert players don't even THINK about where to hit the
cue ball, I'm in full agreement.

Even I don't worry about precisely where my tip will contact the CB
because, I no longer have to. My mental process is more like -
"I need for the CB to do... whatever... on this shot, so, I hit it this way"
.....................................................

Upon further consideration... to clarify, as a beginer and intermediate player,
I spent a lot of shot clock time calculating that I should strike the CB
about 9/16 ths of a tip right, and 7/32 nds below, center. That is what
I no longer need to do.
......................................................

It was getting to the point that I could use that approach, that allowed
me to change from a 'permanently intermediate' player to an advanced
one.

Dale(inactively advanced cue sports enthusiast)

 

[Island Drive]

Congratulations Grasshopper, you've just stepped onto the tip of the
iceberg - it can be a great ride.

Dale

Yep, I find it very entertaining ''at times'' when the newer players think....''If I just do that'' this will always happen.
Just talked over the holidays with my sister in law about the youngsters of today. She asked Andrew her nephew, while they were out driving....where was his office at? She knew he worked a couple miles from his parents home, he had NO clue how to find it w/o his GPS, which his aunt did not have in her car, pretty amazing. This kid has a college degree.

 

[12squared]

I haven't read all of the posts so please forgive me if this was suggested... There are many variables that can move the cueball to a certain spot but I would suggest the following:

1) Become very familiar w/the 90 degree rule (tangent line off the object ball) & the 30 degree rule which helps understand what the cue ball does after striking the object ball w/high or natural roll at slower speeds. This will help you understand the path of the cueball before hitting a rail. For example, using different speeds into the object ball, using the same 12:00 english (high, center ball), you can get to many different paths of the cueball depending on traffic. So speed is one variable you must get familiar with.

You can find a ton of info on this in many places but I would suggest googling Dr. Dave 90 degree and 30 degree rules. His info is free and readily available on the web.

2) Learn the clock system. The clock system will teach you how to work your way around the cueball using the positions of a clock that will teach you the path of the cueball once it hits the first rail. The spin (different clock positions) spread the cueball to different spots once it hits the rail. There may be many that teach this but Buddy Hall does a great job. There may be free versions of this on the we as well.

With knowledge of both of these systems and practice you should be able to identify where on the cueball the tip hits to get to a spot or path. Because you would know what path off the cueball and what happens once it hits a rail.

Hope this helps.

Dave
The cueball is the teacher.

 

[book collector]

I have had success with new players by imagining the table to be 8 equal boxes2 diamonds wide and 2 diamonds long
Put the object ball a few inches from the corner pocket and put the cueball a foot away from it .
Try to pocket the ball and put the cueball in each of the eight squares.
Place the cueball at 45 degree angles to the object ball going both directions around the table
It is easier to play the furthest away boxes and work your way down for most.
The best part of this practice is that especially in games of rotation you can play shape for this angle as you start playing better and you will be able to get where you want with confidence.
Do the same with the side pockets.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I have had success with new players by imagining the table to be 8 equal squares .

Put the object ball a few inches from the pocket and put the cueball a foot away from it .
Try to pocket the ball and put the cueball in each of the eight squares.
Place the cueball at 45 degree angles to the object ball going both directions around the table
It is easier to play the furthest away boxes and work your way down for most.
The best part of this practice is that especially in games of rotation you can play shape for this angle as you start playing better and you will be able to get where you want with confidence.

I think EVERYONE is is kind of saying the same thing. If not, I'll point it out for everyone. They are talking things that are "consistent".

The MORE you do the SAME or similar things the SAME WAY it IMPROVES your "consistency". Your OVERALL consistency. You may have shots that require you do do things with the cue ball that Willie Hoppe or Willie Mosconi couldn't do, but those SHOULD be the shots that you have to shoot the LEAST. Those shots should only come to play when you get out of line or WAY out of line. It doesn't mean you don't have to know English and be able to perform with it...it just means you SHOULDN'T have to use it MOST of the time if you are playing what I would consider correctly. Your version of "correctly" and mine may be TOTALLY different. EVERYBODY has bit of a different style...even the pros. The key to what they are doing though is "keeping THEIR game consistent".

If you are having to use English on MOST of your shots, you are OUT OF LINE on MOST of YOUR shots.

Some people play that way all the time. They think it looks COOL to shoot swing shots like Earl and watch the crowd's eyes bug out when it works. But it looks kind of silly if all you needed to do was something simple in the first place and now all of a sudden you have turned it into a "Circus" shot.

Circus shot are for ENTERTAINMENT or for when you are playing for fun...or as a LAST resort.

It is much easier to play a "consistent" "boring" game. If you are doing everything correctly.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I had the privilege to play against Ronnie O'Sullivan and Steve Davis (with Earl)

I think the reason I was able to see it and pick it up quite easily was that I played snooker very well before I ever took the effort to learn pool well. The ONLY reason I went to pool from snooker is that there was money to be made in pool at the time and NOTHING to be made in snooker where I lived. VERY few places even had a snooker table. Quite the OPPOSITE of Europe where the snooker kings live.

Yes, snooker is a completely different type game. and extremely challenging - I had the privilege to play against Ronnie O'Sullivan and Steve Davis with Earl Strickland as my partner in the Mosconi Cup....I luckily ran out the last rack to win - that was the most pressure I'd ever felt (partners in MC is tough).....my only thought was to get the cue straight through the ball and TRUST my set up.......when under severe pressure I try to keep everything as simple as possible, I'm sure that's also true with snooker players.

 

[dr_dave]

I haven't read all of the posts so please forgive me if this was suggested... There are many variables that can move the cueball to a certain spot but I would suggest the following:

1) Become very familiar w/the 90 degree rule (tangent line off the object ball) & the 30 degree rule which helps understand what the cue ball does after striking the object ball w/high or natural roll at slower speeds. This will help you understand the path of the cueball before hitting a rail. For example, using different speeds into the object ball, using the same 12:00 english (high, center ball), you can get to many different paths of the cueball depending on traffic. So speed is one variable you must get familiar with.

You can find a ton of info on this in many places but I would suggest googling Dr. Dave 90 degree and 30 degree rules. His info is free and readily available on the web.

...

The cueball is the teacher.

For those interested in these and related topics, here are some useful links:

- 90 degree rule
- 30 degree rule
- 45 degree rule
- CB control speed effects
- where the CB goes in different cases
- CB control resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

Yes, there's a level that the game connects perfectly.....this "level" is not one that requires "spin".

I think EVERYONE is is kind of saying the same thing. If not, I'll point it out for everyone. They are talking things that are "consistent".

The MORE you do the SAME or similar things the SAME WAY it IMPROVES your "consistency". Your OVERALL consistency. You may have shots that require you do do things with the cue ball that Willie Hoppe or Willie Mosconi couldn't do, but those SHOULD be the shots that you have to shoot the LEAST. Those shots should only come to play when you get out of line or WAY out of line. It doesn't mean you don't have to know English and be able to perform with it...it just means you SHOULDN'T have to use it MOST of the time if you are playing what I would consider correctly. Your version of "correctly" and mine may be TOTALLY different. EVERYBODY has bit of a different style...even the pros. The key to what they are doing though is "keeping THEIR game consistent".

If you are having to use English on MOST of your shots, you are OUT OF LINE on MOST of YOUR shots.

Some people play that way all the time. They think it looks COOL to shoot swing shots like Earl and watch the crowd's eyes bug out when it works. But it looks kind of silly if all you needed to do was something simple in the first place and now all of a sudden you have turned it into a "Circus" shot.

Circus shot are for ENTERTAINMENT or for when you are playing for fun...or as a LAST resort.

It is much easier to play a "consistent" "boring" game. If you are doing everything correctly.