entry fees+added money-TD fee-greens fee=really?

cleary

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
This thread isn't to call any tournaments or events out, I'm just a bit frustrated with the concept of "added money" with some of the tournaments in my area. I don't know if this is common practice or not but I feel as if we're being lied to.

A hypothetical example:
If a tournament says they (the room) are going to add $2000 for a full field of 64, and they do. And in entry fees the bring in 5,000. 5000+2000=7000. Then, $7000- tournament director fee of $400 (2 day event) is $6600 minus green fees of $1,400 (2 day event) = $5,200 paid out.

So an event that has $2,000 added, really only $200 was added. The rest was added then taken back.


My question is, is this normal practice or is it tricky false advertising?
 
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That's trash! The entry fee always specifies greens fees and whatnot. If it is just $50 entry fee then it is tricky on their part. That's an outrageous fee anyway, yow!
 
cleary said:
This thread isn't to call any tournaments or events out, I'm just a bit frustrated with the concept of "added money" with some of the tournaments in my area. I don't know if this is common practice or not but I feel as if we're being lied to.

A hypothetical example:
If a tournament says they are going to add $2000 for a full field of 64, and they do. And in entry fees the bring in 5,000. 5000+2000=7000. Then, $7000- tournament director fee of $400 (2 day event) is $6600 minus green fees of $1,400 (2 day event) = $5,200 paid out.

So an event that has $2,000 added, really only $200 was added. The rest was added then taken back.


My question is, is this normal practice or is it tricky false advertising?
Click to expand...

This has been an age-old topic on pool tournaments. It's all in the wording. If I can find an old thread on this topic, I will pull it up. I know this topic was discussed about 7 or 8 years ago at lenght for the very reasons that you brought it up. It is misleading, the wording.

The keywords to look out for when ascertaining what a tournament is paying out are these: GUARANTEED, ADDED, or GUARANTEED ADDED.

Each one has a different end result. :wink:
 
Are you saying that the room doesn't deserve to make some money for the use of tables and the TD doesn't deserve some pay for running the event? Or are you saying they aren't letting everyone know up front?

I don't have a problem with that kind of layout. I've watched too many players in an event go out to McDs to eat instead of giving the room some food revenue. And I've run enough events to know how much a TD should get for the aggravation, I'm sorry for the job, of putting it on.

Just my opinion, of course. Hell, when I play in an event, I'm just a field filler anyway.

Brian in VA
 
cleary said:
This thread isn't to call any tournaments or events out, I'm just a bit frustrated with the concept of "added money" with some of the tournaments in my area. I don't know if this is common practice or not but I feel as if we're being lied to.

A hypothetical example:
If a tournament says they are going to add $2000 for a full field of 64, and they do. And in entry fees the bring in 5,000. 5000+2000=7000. Then, $7000- tournament director fee of $400 (2 day event) is $6600 minus green fees of $1,400 (2 day event) = $5,200 paid out.

So an event that has $2,000 added, really only $200 was added. The rest was added then taken back.


My question is, is this normal practice or is it tricky false advertising?
Click to expand...



It's the 'fine print' that gets ya (so to speak)!

I have played a couple times in a particular tournament tour and often wondered the same. Unless a certain portion is known up front as part of the 'green fee', I don't care about playing/supporting that event. Most people don't care about paying either fee but to not communicate those fees up front is my problem.

I am not sure if the poor communication about payouts/added money is on accident or on purpose though.

But to answer your question, I think it's false advertisement. If you have a director come in and run the tourney, those fees are known up front generally. Tourney's should not advertise a certain money added to only take money out later. To me, Total purse money should represent entry fee (-green fee) + added money.

Anything other than that is false advertising.


Gary
 
Here is my post on the topic in 2004: Dinovirus, not too long ago, I read a thread on another pool-related forum in which some folks were curious about the difference between "guaranteed" and "added." There are some who truly do not know the difference. From what I read on the Home page of AzBilliards in "The Main Event," the Big Orange Classic II tournament went exactly how it was advertised, $5,000 guaranteed. It also sounded like the extracurricular activities provided a great time to be had by all with the 10-ball game and golf tournament. The player roster was strong, which must have provided some good rail-side entertainment.

The post written by JJinFLA reminded me how those hurricanes sure can cause a lot of turmoil for TD's and promoters. The U.S. Open comes to mind with Hurricane Isabel and the dreadful aftermath of 9/11. The Trump Marina 10-Ball Challenge experienced turnout problems because of a major snow storm a few years back. The tournament was actually delayed by a day or two. Then there was the first Big Apple tourney in NYC that experienced a major blackout in the Northeast United States the night of the players meeting. Nobody could fly in or out! There were flooding from a major rainstorm that occurred with the Capital City Classic in Philly. IMHO, I believe most TD's and promoters would desire to make a profit, but many times, I think they hold these tournaments because of the passion they have for the game and desire to make something happen. Without these folks, the pool world sure would be a lot more dismal than it is today, and they should be commended, every single one of them...

Here is one thread: Big Orange Classic a Ripoff I cannot believe how many members in this thread have been BANNED. :grin-square:
 
Brian in VA said:
Are you saying that the room doesn't deserve to make some money for the use of tables
Click to expand...

How is the room making money for the use of their tables?

If they add $2000 then take $1400 back, what are they making?

If you lose $2000 at a casino then win $1400 back, you didn't win anything but your own money back...
 
Here's a thread that hits the nail on the head: Added Money???

Wow! I used to be a pretty doggone good writer. Here's my post in that thread:

Another thought that comes to mind relating to pool payouts is the advertising terminology; in particular, ADDED monies, GUARANTEED monies, and GUARANTEED ADDED monies.

As an example, you may read about an upcoming event which is $10,000 ADDED. Sometimes there is a follow-on phrase which reads something like "based on 256 players." In essence, $10,000 will be added ONLY if there are 256 players who show up. If only 64 players show up, the purse will drop to $2,500 added. Always read the small print when contemplating traveling to an event.

Many times, you will see an event like the recent Masters tournament in Norfolk, held at Q-Masters and won by Francisco Bustamante. This was a $10,000-added event, with an expectation of a 128-player field. Though only 45-plus players showed up, Barry Behrman did add the complete $10,000 to the total prize purse.

Sometimes, a tournament will advertise an event as "10,000 GUARANTEED" based on 256 players. These monies are guaranteed IF AND ONLY IF the 256-player field is filled up. If there are less players, then the total monies GUARANTEED will be less as well.

I'm still not sure about why some advertisements are worded as "GUARANTEED ADDED." I believe -- and I may be wrong -- that this means that no matter how many players show up, the total monies added are GUARANTEED to be ADDED.

So, in sum, look for the key phrases when contemplating attending a pool tournament: ADDED, GUARANTEED, and GUARANTEED ADDED.

Hope this helps!
 
Yep, very common.

We have/had lots of events that claim they are $1000 added based on 128 players, BUT the entry into the event is $75 ($65 to the prize fund and $10 in green fees) so in fact based on a full field the amount of green fees taken in by the hall is more then the added money.

It is an advertising thing. It sounds better to players who do not read/think very much to see $1000 added with a $10 green fee instead of seeing $0 added but the full entry fees are put into the prize fund, even if the latter is actually the better deal for the players.

In a proper well equipped billiards club with a full kitchen, full bar, and proper pricing and customer base you should not need to take green fees. Money will be made by having the people there eating and drinking over the course of the event.

In a "family" billiards type of hall with a limited menu that consists of a hot dog machine and nachos and a cheese machine and a limited bar the money made on food and drinks wont make the event worth it without the green fees because people will not want to eat or drink there nearly as much. These are the places where players go as a group to a restaurant during their breaks between matches and spend their money eating lunch and/or drinking elsewhere.

Most of the places I see charging a green fee into an event tend to be the latter type of places and it is very clear during events that they simply do not make the money they should given the people the event draws. At the nice places with full bars and full kitchens tournaments tend to pull in huge revenue through food and drinks and table rentals before/after the tournament times for each day. They get a huge amount of money out of the players. The family billiards place gets their $10 green fee and often not a lot more.
 
And then they take 10% of the Calcutta -- you missed that in your equation.

It is false advertising. It is Sham Wow. Just add in the shipping and the handling fees -- that is how we plan to make money on selling our product. Same with pool tournaments such as that.
 
cleary said:
How is the room making money for the use of their tables?

If they add $2000 then take $1400 back, what are they making?

If you lose $2000 at a casino then win $1400 back, you didn't win anything but your own money back...
Click to expand...

You didn't mention "who" added the money. If that's what happened and it wasn't called out clearly, then I do think it's kind of shady. If it's clearly understood, up front, then I you pay your money and you take your chances.

Brian in VA
 
cleary said:
[...]
A hypothetical example:
If a tournament says they are going to add $2000 for a full field of 64, and they do. And in entry fees the bring in 5,000. 5000+2000=7000. Then, $7000- tournament director fee of $400 (2 day event) is $6600 minus green fees of $1,400 (2 day event) = $5,200 paid out.

So an event that has $2,000 added, really only $200 was added. The rest was added then taken back.


My question is, is this normal practice or is it tricky false advertising?
Click to expand...

If they are clear in advance about what comes out, then it's OK, imo.

Also, there are reasons other than obfuscation for doing this apparent adding with the right hand and taking back with the left hand.

We have an 8-ball tournament coming up March 7-9 that is $60 entry, $2500 added. We take $10 out of each entry as a green fee. You might say that if we have 100 players (and thus take $1000 back in green fees) then we're really only adding $1500. And you might ask why don't we drop the green fee and just add $1500?

The reason goes to the real purpose of the added money. We are saying to the player who might take time off of work, who might travel and have a hotel that WE and not the player will assume the risk of a low turnout. In other words, even if only 8 people show up for the tournament (because of weather or conflicting events or whatever), that player making the commitment to come knows thew prize fund will be over $2500.

If a tournament turnout is high, the added money becomes a less and less important part of the prize fund--relatively speaking.
 
watchez said:
And then they take 10% of the Calcutta -- you missed that in your equation.

It is false advertising. It is Sham Wow. Just add in the shipping and the handling fees -- that is how we plan to make money on selling our product. Same with pool tournaments such as that.
Click to expand...

LOL I wish there were a calcutta! They don't have em because they're "illegal". I'll tell em.
 
It is not proper to take any money out of the prize fund unless it is stated publicly in advance of the event.

Each player has the right to assume that 100% of their entry fee money will be paid out to the players if nothing is specified in advance.

The same goes for added money. Nothing should be deducted from it unless stated in advance.
 
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mikepage said:
In other words, even if only 8 people show up for the tournament (because of weather or conflicting events or whatever), that player making the commitment to come knows thew prize fund will be over $2500.
Click to expand...

In these tournaments, the added money is based on the turnout. For instance, $2000/added based on a full field. So they only add the $2000 if they can instantly take $1400 back. To me, that's just not right.
 
cleary said:
This thread isn't to call any tournaments or events out, I'm just a bit frustrated with the concept of "added money" with some of the tournaments in my area. I don't know if this is common practice or not but I feel as if we're being lied to.

A hypothetical example:
If a tournament says they are going to add $2000 for a full field of 64, and they do. And in entry fees the bring in 5,000. 5000+2000=7000. Then, $7000- tournament director fee of $400 (2 day event) is $6600 minus green fees of $1,400 (2 day event) = $5,200 paid out.

So an event that has $2,000 added, really only $200 was added. The rest was added then taken back.


My question is, is this normal practice or is it tricky false advertising?
Click to expand...

But if there's no added money, the prize fund would only be $3200. ($5000 - $400 - $1400 = $3200)

If the tournament organizers made the overhead costs (TD cost and green fees) public, then I don't see what the problem is. If they didn't... well, then something tricky is going on.

I have no idea if $1400 for greens fees and $400 for TD are reasonable amounts but it is reasonable to me that they are part of the equation.
 
cleary said:
In these tournaments, the added money is based on the turnout. For instance, $2000/added based on a full field. So they only add the $2000 if they can instantly take $1400 back. To me, that's just not right.
Click to expand...

Did you read my posts about the definitions of these terms?

GUARANTEED
ADDED
GUARANTEED ADDED
 
krupa said:
But if there's no added money, the prize fund would only be $3200. ($5000 - $400 - $1400 = $3200)

If the tournament organizers made the overhead costs (TD cost and green fees) public, then I don't see what the problem is. If they didn't... well, then something tricky is going on.

I have no idea if $1400 for greens fees and $400 for TD are reasonable amounts but it is reasonable to me that they are part of the equation.
Click to expand...

Krupa, the part that I don't understand and is why a room would add $2000, then instantly take $1400 back for green fees of their own money. They're paying the green fees themselves. So what's the point?
 
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