Let's Bring The Discussion Of Pool Player As Job Over Here

[watchez]

"Or B-level players that hang on the nuts of pro players."

Wow. If that isn't an admission of the weakness of your assertions then I don't know what else could be more so.

Yeah, I guess pro-level pool players should be carrying everyone else on their back since it's so-o-o-o worth it.

I was talking about you, Bob.

 

[SJDinPHX]

As long as you are rooting against Pro Pool's success I feel even stronger that it will succeed...

'The Game is the Teacher'

Actually, I am rooting harder for pool to succeed, than you are !..Watching a good pool match, is the highlight of my days.
..I am just not into trying to convince everyone, that "I" know how to make it happen ! (could be where we differ)

'The FACTS are the teacher' !

PS..So far, your "fight to the death" tournaments, are the BEST idea you've come up with yet ! :bow-down:

Maybe you should stick to your martial arts skill's !..Oh wait,
........you even have Mr. Lee confused.

 

[(((Satori)))]

I dont think so for mainstream appeal. It would take a solid structure, a lot of money and people who knew what they were doing to run it. Even then chances are it would still fail as do most start up entertainment sports. Its taken decades for pro soccer to get any sort of success in the US and their are some very smart very rich people involved in that. The NHL is still always talking about gaining acceptance and bringing in new people to survive and grow.

I think pro pool's only hope is to become a solid niche sport by going after the league players full force. To do anything though requires structure and organization. Something pool has been historically very very bad at. The reason that is IMO is because the juice just isn't worth squeeze for anyone to invest the time money and effort it would take.

Think of a structure with amateur events funding and providing fans for pro events. A structure for a player to go from novice to pro with a known bar to entry at the top level. Of course there are many amateurs who say "I want none of my money or effort to go towards funding any pro's." That attitude is born out of the last thirty years of conduct by the pro players. So you have what we have now. Everyone struggling to do the best they can in little groups often working at odds with each other.

Until there is a structure and organization in place that holds players and promoters accountable nothing will change.

Ok, I was asking about TAR but you went in the direction of a tour so let's take a look at what you said.

Overall I like what I hear. Even though you said you don't see a solution for mainstream appeal, you followed your comment up by saying it would take structure, lots of money, and people who know what they are doing. What you have really said here is that you believe there is a solution you just don't think it is attainable. It would obviously be good to hear someone of your stature in the industry to say it is attainable but just hearing you say it would take 1,2,&3 is much better than the defeated messages I have been hearing lately that there is no hope. As long as there is a solution there is hope.

Why is it not attainable though? Structure is doable, and so is money and hiring knowledgeable people on top of gaining the knowledge yourself.

I like your idea of starting out by building a niche sport. Can we just call that phase 1 though? Phase 1... Put a structure in place and build a fan base in the best way you see fit and then promote. It sounds like you have a plan to build a fan base from current league players which is cool but as soon as you say it you follow it up with blaming pros for their actions over the last 30 years and their actions hinder your plan. I get it, you are being honest. But your honesty is simply your opinion which can and must change if you are to succeed with this. Is it really true that more than a handfull of league players are so concerned about the actions pros have taken the last 30 years? Is that a big enough problem to prevent a promoter to make this system work? I don't think so.

So you build the niche sport and now you have a fan base with a system of tournaments and competitive levels. So what is to stop a promoter from taking his niche sport with a solid fan baze and getting a TV deal, then bringing in sponsors & having the structure, the money, and the knowledge in marketing that you yourself say it would take for mainstream appreciation? What I'm getting at is I think there is a way for its attainment, as CJ said there is always a solution?

 

[easy-e]

Actually, I am rooting harder for pool to succeed, than you are !..Watching a good pool match, is the highlight of my days.
..I am just not into trying to convince everyone, that "I" know how to make it happen ! (could be where we differ)

'The FACTS are the teacher' !

PS..So far, your "fight to the death" tournaments, are the BEST idea you've come up with yet ! :bow-down:

Maybe you should stick to your martial arts skill's !..Oh wait,
........you even have Mr. Lee confused.
View attachment 315126

That's Jackie Chan genius.

 

[JCIN]

Ok, I was asking about TAR but you went in the direction of a tour so let's take a look at what you said.

Overall I like what I hear. Even though you said you don't see a solution for mainstream appeal, you followed your comment up by saying it would take structure, lots of money, and people who know what they are doing. What you have really said here is that you believe there is a solution you just don't think it is attainable. It would obviously be good to hear someone of your stature in the industry to say it is attainable but just hearing you say it would take 1,2,&3 is much better than the defeated messages I have been hearing lately that there is no hope. As long as there is a solution there is hope.

Why is it not attainable though? Structure is doable, and so is money and hiring knowledgeable people on top of gaining the knowledge yourself.

I like your idea of starting out by building a niche sport. Can we just call that phase 1 though? Phase 1... Put a structure in place and build a fan base in the best way you see fit and then promote. It sounds like you have a plan to build a fan base from current league players which is cool but as soon as you say it you follow it up with blaming pros for their actions over the last 30 years and their actions hinder your plan. I get it, you are being honest. But your honesty is simply your opinion which can and must change if you are to succeed with this. Is it really true that more than a handfull of league players are so concerned about the actions pros have taken the last 30 years? Is that a big enough problem to prevent a promoter to make this system work? I don't think so.

So you build the niche sport and now you have a fan base with a system of tournaments and competitive levels. So what is to stop a promoter from taking his niche sport with a solid fan baze and getting a TV deal, then bringing in sponsors & having the structure, the money, and the knowledge in marketing that you yourself say it would take for mainstream appreciation? What I'm getting at is I think there is a way for its attainment, as CJ said there is always a solution?

I will answer your questions with some questions.

Where does the money come from?

Why would someone invest money in the idea?

What is the chance of a return?

What is the track record for people who have invested money into pool over the last forty years?

How do you get over the one unchanging fact of pro pool....people think its boring to watch?

Finally there is an old saying that talent goes where the money is. Who is going to invest enough money to lure the type of talent it would take to build pool into something with even a remote chance at mainstream acceptance?

Making pool mainstream is like putting a colony on Mars. Its theoretically possible but highly unlikely in our lifetime. That said with some repurposing of existing resources, leadership and follow through on multiple levels it is possible to build a ground up structure from amataeur to pro in pool now in the US. I dont think anyone will do it though.

Edit to add: When I say mainstream I am not talking about pool as a backdrop for a two season reality show on the I.D channel. I am talking about the game as a sport.

 

[SJDinPHX]

That's Jackie Chan genius.

Sorry Mr.-e, but ALL 'martial arts' guy's look the same to me !

PS..If you didn't waste all your time watching terrible B-rated action movies, you might play better pool !

 

[justadub]

Sorry Mr.-e, but ALL 'martial arts' guy's look the same to me !

PS..If you didn't waste all your time watching terrible B-rated action movies, you might play better pool !

Small clarification for you.

Jackie Chan doesn't do "B" movies. Yes, he has done many action/adventure movies, but he also does a bunch of comedies, as well. Far from a "B" movie actor. He is a name Hollywood actor and has been for some time now.

You might not watch them, or keep up with what is released for movies over the last decade of so, but your generalization (and stereotyping) is incorrect.

As for whether those movies are "terrible", well, that is up to the viewer, of course. What you like will be different from what I, or Easy E, or anyone else likes.

 

[Icon of Sin]

And then let's compare pool to a real job. Every day I have to listen to someone tell me what to do. I have to be somewhere at a certain time, for a certain length of time. My office is in the hood. Google the 63114 neighborhood. My company has been bought out 2 times in the past 5 years. Each time there is the threat that they will do away with my job. Last time, I lost a weeks paid vacation that I spent the 5 previous years earning due to my commmitment to this job. I spend $400 a month in gas getting to work. $100 a month on dry cleaning. $500-$1000 a year on clothes for work. I work Christmas eve. New Years eve. My birthday. I am salary. Some weeks I work 40 hours. Some weeks I work 60 hours. I work Saturdays. And then after all of that, I give over a 1/3 of my paycheck to taxes.

Even with these insecurities and downfalls regarding your job, it is still a more reliable source of income then being a professional pool player and probably more profitable.

 

[krupa]

How do you get over the one unchanging fact of pro pool....people think its boring to watch?

If golf were recorded and broadcast like pool is, you would watch one group (basically Tiger and whoever is playing with him) play the entire course with all the walking and looking at notes and talking to his caddy, etc. This would be painfully boring.

Pool is boring to watch because we see all the minutiae that goes on during a match: walking around the table repeatedly, changing cues to jump, arguing over the rack, etc.

As an experiment, what if you (and by "you", I mean "someone not necessarily you") put cameras on multiple tables and then edited it like golf? So instead of watching one match on one table, the viewer can watch mostly uninterrupted action. For this experiment, I'm not suggesting trying to broadcast it live, but just to cut together a video to see if it's more watchable.

I realize that there's a lot of overhead to do this experiment, I'm just wondering if you, Justin, think that that kind of presentation were be more palatable and if the experiment would be worth trying at some point.

 

[Jadssons]

Even with these insecurities and downfalls regarding your job, it is still a more reliable source of income then being a professional pool player and probably more profitable.

If someone doesn't like their job due to pay, hours, conditions, etc. they have the choice to find a better job.

 

[Icon of Sin]

If someone doesn't like their job due to pay, hours, conditions, etc. they have the choice to find a better job.

On the same note... if someone doesnt like the life of a pool player they have the choice to find a stable job...

 

[Jadssons]

On the same note... if someone doesnt like the life of a pool player they have the choice to find a stable job...

That is exactly my point. :thumbup:

 

[(((Satori)))]

I will answer your questions with some questions.

Where does the money come from?

Why would someone invest money in the idea?

What is the chance of a return?

What is the track record for people who have invested money into pool over the last forty years?

How do you get over the one unchanging fact of pro pool....people think its boring to watch?

Finally there is an old saying that talent goes where the money is. Who is going to invest enough money to lure the type of talent it would take to build pool into something with even a remote chance at mainstream acceptance?

Making pool mainstream is like putting a colony on Mars. Its theoretically possible but highly unlikely in our lifetime. That said with some repurposing of existing resources, leadership and follow through on multiple levels it is possible to build a ground up structure from amataeur to pro in pool now in the US. I dont think anyone will do it though.

Edit to add: When I say mainstream I am not talking about pool as a backdrop for a two season reality show on the I.D channel. I am talking about the game as a sport.

There are no answers on a forum that will satisfy those questions. A whole book could be read on the subject and you still could be left wondering how to reach the level of promoter needed to get the job done.

I could give you stock answers like, generate sponsors or get money from the competitors in phase 1. Or I could say if you want to make pool fun to watch you have to develop characters, build a storyline, inform the public and create emotional attachment. Market the match beforehand and maximize the storyline afterwards to create buzz for the next one. Connect the events to where they go together as something the fan can follow and really get into instead of making each event a product of its own. But these answers are not really going to be worth much and can easily be looked at and tossed away. They are equivalent to answering a player on a forum when he asks how do I aim like Earl. The answer that will work for you is going to be learned when you decide that it is possible to do this and that you are going to do it, then through hard work without ever giving up until you succeed you take action.

The main point I wanted to drive home is that it is possible to achieve mainstream success. I hope you find a way to believe this not only because you are the one working towards the goal but also because you are a leader in this industry and you have power. I watched as people's opinion of str8shots changed with your every post. And with every word you speak about pros or the industry new threads appear mirroring your thoughts on those subjects and the ideas are reinforced. I think it is critical that you and Mark both believe in pools success, believe in the pros and your ability to market them, and send out messages that reflect those thoughts.

 

[justadub]

If golf were recorded and broadcast like pool is, you would watch one group (basically Tiger and whoever is playing with him) play the entire course with all the walking and looking at notes and talking to his caddy, etc. This would be painfully boring.

Pool is boring to watch because we see all the minutiae that goes on during a match: walking around the table repeatedly, changing cues to jump, arguing over the rack, etc.

As an experiment, what if you (and by "you", I mean "someone not necessarily you") put cameras on multiple tables and then edited it like golf? So instead of watching one match on one table, the viewer can watch mostly uninterrupted action. For this experiment, I'm not suggesting trying to broadcast it live, but just to cut together a video to see if it's more watchable.

I realize that there's a lot of overhead to do this experiment, I'm just wondering if you, Justin, think that that kind of presentation were be more palatable and if the experiment would be worth trying at some point.

I agree with this whole concept.

The devil, of course, is in the details on making it happen. Money.

 

[SJDinPHX]

It sounds like you have a plan to build a fan base from current league players which is cool but as soon as you say it you follow it up with blaming pros for their actions over the last 30 years and their actions hinder your plan. I get it, you are being honest....But your honesty is simply your opinion.... Is that a big enough problem to prevent a promoter to make this system work? I don't think so.

So you build the niche sport and now you have a fan base with a system of tournaments and competitive levels. So what is to stop a promoter from taking his niche sport with a solid fan base and getting a TV deal, then bringing in sponsors & having the structure, the money, and the knowledge in marketing that you yourself say it would take for mainstream appreciation? What I'm getting at is, I think there is a way for its attainment, as CJ said there is always a solution?

I will answer your questions with some questions. Where does the money come from? Why would someone invest money in the idea ? What is the chance of a return ? What is the track record for people who have invested money into pool over the last forty years?..How do you get over the one unchanging fact of pro pool....people think its boring to watch ?... Who is going to invest enough money to lure the type of talent it would take to build pool into something with even a remote chance at mainstream acceptance?

Making pool mainstream is like putting a colony on Mars. Its theoretically possible but highly unlikely in our lifetime. That said with some repurposing of existing resources, leadership and follow through on multiple levels it is possible to build a ground up structure from amataeur to pro in pool now in the US. I dont think anyone will do it though.

Edit to add: When I say mainstream I am not talking about pool as a backdrop for a two season reality show on the I.D channel. I am talking about the game as a sport.

Mr. Sartori, I will not profess to know as much as Justin knows, (or maybe you know) about the inner workings of the pool biz... However I am firmly in tune with his responses !..I admire your optimism, as I do CJ's, but there is NOT "always a solution" !..One needs to temper their wildest dreams, with a good dose of reality !

If I may offer an analogy...Who would be willing to take an old broken down farm horse, (ie; pro pool player's) and spend the money it would take, to turn him into a completely rebuilt, "bionic" speedster...capable of beating a horse like Secretariat (ie; popular, proven spectator sports) in a mile long race ?

I love the game as much as anyone..and have all my life...But I would say, unless something REALLY radical happens..(like, maybe ALL other sports go bankrupt) there is NO chance of our 'niche' game EVER becoming popular enough to sustain more than a handful of really elite, professional pool player's !

PS..I'm not sure Bill Gates has enough money to prove my (our) theory wrong...I'm also quite sure he wouldn't even try !

 

[(((Satori)))]

Mr. Sartori, I will not profess to know as much as Justin knows, about the inner workings of the pool biz... However I am firmly in tune with his responses !..I admire your optimism, as I do CJ's, but there is NOT "always a solution" !..One needs to temper their wildest dreams, with a good dose of reality !

If I may offer an analogy...Who would be willing to take an old broken down farm horse, (ie; pro pool player's) and spend the money it would take, to turn him into a completely rebuilt, "bionic" speedster...capable of beating a horse like Secretariat (ie; popular, proven spectator sports) in a mile long race ?

I love the game as much as anyone..and have all my adult life !..But I would say, unless something REALLY radical happens..(like, maybe all other sports go bankrupt) there is NO chance of our 'niche' game EVER becoming popular enough to sustain more than a handful of really elite pro player's !

There is always a solution and that is as big a dose of reality as I can give you. With enough desire, faith, and work miracles can happen.Today we do things that seemed impossible not to long ago. As we communicate with each other from different states (something once thought to be unreal) scientist are working on growing limbs on amputees with stem cell research, and you want me to believe that pool making it to the mainstream is unreal?

 

[SJDinPHX]

There is always a solution and that is as big a dose of reality as I can give you. With enough desire, faith, and work miracles can happen.Today we do things that seemed impossible not to long ago. As we communicate with each other from different states (something once thought to be unreal) scientist are working on growing limbs on amputees with stem cell research, and you want me to believe that pool making it to the mainstream is unreal?

Just like my horse analogy, or a colony on Mars..I did not say 'unreal'..just very UNREALISTIC ! :sorry:

 

[nb92]

Welcome to AzBilliards Discussion Forum, Dick, where subject matters are cyclical.

Next on the menu, who's the best player in the world? After that, we'll have a little aiming strategy, and for dessert, Bonus Ball woes.

and for a coffee break.. a thread begging an offended poster who declared good-bye cruel world to please return to the forum ... as responsible parties have been banned... and they are sorely missed..

 

[bdorman]

If golf were recorded and broadcast like pool is, you would watch one group (basically Tiger and whoever is playing with him) play the entire course with all the walking and looking at notes and talking to his caddy, etc. This would be painfully boring.

Pool is boring to watch because we see all the minutiae that goes on during a match: walking around the table repeatedly, changing cues to jump, arguing over the rack, etc.

As an experiment, what if you (and by "you", I mean "someone not necessarily you") put cameras on multiple tables and then edited it like golf? So instead of watching one match on one table, the viewer can watch mostly uninterrupted action. For this experiment, I'm not suggesting trying to broadcast it live, but just to cut together a video to see if it's more watchable.

I realize that there's a lot of overhead to do this experiment, I'm just wondering if you, Justin, think that that kind of presentation were be more palatable and if the experiment would be worth trying at some point.

This is the argument I made in another thread; pool should offer the sports networks a "highlight reel" of a tournament, 22 minutes that summarize the event. That way it can be fast-paced and make the game exciting for the viewer.

Regarding JCIN's idea that amateurs should contribute to the professional prize funds: The reason I object to it has nothing to do with pro's behavior; I couldn't care less how they behave. But there isn't one other sport -- major or minor -- that I can think of where amateurs are "taxed" so the pros can be paid. Does Little League baseball pay a fee to MLB? Does high-school football pay the NFL? Can you think of one sport where this happens? I think a "fee to the pros" would harm the amateur sport (the more something costs, the less of it you'll get) without providing any benefit to the pros.

 

[krupa]

Regarding JCIN's idea that amateurs should contribute to the professional prize funds: The reason I object to it has nothing to do with pro's behavior; I couldn't care less how they behave. But there isn't one other sport -- major or minor -- that I can think of where amateurs are "taxed" so the pros can be paid. Does Little League baseball pay a fee to MLB? Does high-school football pay the NFL? Can you think of one sport where this happens? I think a "fee to the pros" would harm the amateur sport (the more something costs, the less of it you'll get) without providing any benefit to the pros.

Personally, I wouldn't care if the league I played in sponsored professional tournaments. Especially if I had the chance to work my way up through that league system and join the "pro tour" (assuming of course, that these tournaments my league sponsored were part of a tour.)

One way or another, every successful sport is successful because they've gotten some of every fan's money. Either through ticket sales, merchandise, you watching on TV and them selling advertising time (that's obviously indirect but you get my point), etc.

So many people have been comparing pool to other successful, professional sports such as baseball and football. In my opinion pool is NOT successful and any comparisons to multi-billion dollar professional sports is fruitless. Pool needs new ideas, not "look at what that hugely successful, spectator sport is doing... we should do that for pool, a fundamentally participatory sport."