How much is improving worth?

Banks

Banks

Banned
Dear AZB,

If somebody says that they've improved 1 or 2 balls.. four, five or six times.. does that mean that they're now up to 12 balls better? I've always been kind of curious about counting "ball better" improvements.

I try to measure my improvements more in terms of league play, since it's measured on more levels. For example, "I'm a 4." then on to "I'm a decent 4.", again to "I'm a good 4." and eventually moving to "I'm a (weak) 5." and so on. Or, for BCA, A, Master, etc and the same, being weak, decent or good/strong.

Another example.. if somebody plays at a national Master level, what would it mean to be a ball or two better? Can they then go on to get another ball or two better occasionally? Seems to me that it would almost start going into fractions.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland
 
Playing rotation games IMO makes it tough to handicap players.....not a big enough variation between levels.

NOW....14.1 will tell you very simply how good a player is. To say a player is a 50 ball runner tells me exactly what kind of thing to expect when I play them. A 100 ball runner is a killer IMO....100 gets thrown around too much IMO....it is NOT easy, even for good players.....watch the Derby 14.1 challenge.

I do hear what you are saying though. Trying to determine your progress is tough.....saying "I am playing better" is hard to understand.....how much better? right?

G.
 
I've always thought of it in terms of how much better someone plays than another player.
Player A plays two balls better than Player B. So he could spot Player B two balls and play even.

In the sense of ones own skill, I have no clue.
 
I am sure it can be used in different context, but one I know of is in regards to a spot in 9 ball. X used to give me the 5 ball, but I am 2 balls better now so he gives me the 7...just as an example.
 
Banks said:
Dear AZB,

If somebody says that they've improved 1 or 2 balls.. four, five or six times.. does that mean that they're now up to 12 balls better? I've always been kind of curious about counting "ball better" improvements.

I try to measure my improvements more in terms of league play, since it's measured on more levels. For example, "I'm a 4." then on to "I'm a decent 4.", again to "I'm a good 4." and eventually moving to "I'm a (weak) 5." and so on. Or, for BCA, A, Master, etc and the same, being weak, decent or good/strong.

Another example.. if somebody plays at a national Master level, what would it mean to be a ball or two better? Can they then go on to get another ball or two better occasionally? Seems to me that it would almost start going into fractions.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland
Click to expand...

I always used it in one pocket, like 9_7 spot could be applied to banks too, I do not think it works for other games since rotation of balls is a factor
 
Gerry said:
Playing rotation games IMO makes it tough to handicap players.....not a big enough variation between levels.

NOW....14.1 will tell you very simply how good a player is. To say a player is a 50 ball runner tells me exactly what kind of thing to expect when I play them. A 100 ball runner is a killer IMO....100 gets thrown around too much IMO....it is NOT easy, even for good players.....watch the Derby 14.1 challenge.

I do hear what you are saying though. Trying to determine your progress is tough.....saying "I am playing better" is hard to understand.....how much better? right?

G.
Click to expand...

Excellent post albeit a lost cause. :thumbup:
 
Most of that stuff I understand, but it becomes a bit confusing for me when somebody keeps saying that they got (another) ball or two better (again). Just making sure that I'm not the only one that's confused as to whether it actually means anything or what thoughts others had on this. This is posed in reference to more of a self-diagnosis instead of comparing your game to another's.
 
Most improvements after the initial learning stages are so minute that only the learner, and perhaps a coach or regular practice partner, will notice.

I think when someone says they've gotten a ball or two better, it mainly translates into more consistency. So although player A isn't necessarily running more racks than they ever did, but they just feel more consistent. It could be a shot that they make more than they used to, or at least don't feel nervous about anymore, a positional shot they've learned. Anything that allows them to bring their A game to table 3 days a week instead of 2. All of this stuff on the outside seems negligible to the observer and likely won't resort in any movement in ones handicap, but certainly makes all the difference for the player. And if it's enough to improve their confidence, then so be it!
 
Banks said:
Dear AZB,

If somebody says that they've improved 1 or 2 balls.. four, five or six times.. does that mean that they're now up to 12 balls better? I've always been kind of curious about counting "ball better" improvements.

I try to measure my improvements more in terms of league play, since it's measured on more levels. For example, "I'm a 4." then on to "I'm a decent 4.", again to "I'm a good 4." and eventually moving to "I'm a (weak) 5." and so on. Or, for BCA, A, Master, etc and the same, being weak, decent or good/strong.

Another example.. if somebody plays at a national Master level, what would it mean to be a ball or two better? Can they then go on to get another ball or two better occasionally? Seems to me that it would almost start going into fractions.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland
Click to expand...

Simple, if you average running 4 balls in 9 ball, then you start to average 5, you are playing one ball better.

I think it's based on the A B C ranking where a C would average 3-4 balls before messing up, A B 5-7 and an A 8-9.
 
Banks said:
Dear AZB,

If somebody says that they've improved 1 or 2 balls.. four, five or six times.. does that mean that they're now up to 12 balls better? I've always been kind of curious about counting "ball better" improvements.

I try to measure my improvements more in terms of league play, since it's measured on more levels. For example, "I'm a 4." then on to "I'm a decent 4.", again to "I'm a good 4." and eventually moving to "I'm a (weak) 5." and so on. Or, for BCA, A, Master, etc and the same, being weak, decent or good/strong.

Another example.. if somebody plays at a national Master level, what would it mean to be a ball or two better? Can they then go on to get another ball or two better occasionally? Seems to me that it would almost start going into fractions.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland
Click to expand...


What it means is that someone does not really understand what it is to improve two balls.

Of course if a player is completely helpless then they can improve a couple of balls in short order. But as they move up the ladder, that kind of improvement is far more difficult to achieve.

Lou Figueroa
 
Banks said:
Dear AZB,

If somebody says that they've improved 1 or 2 balls.. four, five or six times.. does that mean that they're now up to 12 balls better? I've always been kind of curious about counting "ball better" improvements.

I try to measure my improvements more in terms of league play, since it's measured on more levels. For example, "I'm a 4." then on to "I'm a decent 4.", again to "I'm a good 4." and eventually moving to "I'm a (weak) 5." and so on. Or, for BCA, A, Master, etc and the same, being weak, decent or good/strong.

Another example.. if somebody plays at a national Master level, what would it mean to be a ball or two better? Can they then go on to get another ball or two better occasionally? Seems to me that it would almost start going into fractions.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland
Click to expand...

It''s just an expression not really an objective measure. For example if I were getting a spot from a guy of the 5 and 6 and now he can only give me the 7 then against him I would have improved by two balls.

Basically there is always a sort of informal subjective yardstick in pool rooms where players get ranked based on how many balls they would need from the best player in the room. Then improvement is measured on the amount of weight that the players under him lose over time.

As Stan said to me today the only way for him to know how I really play is for us to play many games of 9 ball and one pocket for hours so that he would really know how I stack up against himself and other players whose speed he is intimately familiar with.
 
lfigueroa said:
What it means is that someone does not really understand what it is to improve two balls.

Of course if a player is completely helpless then they can improve a couple of balls in short order. But as they move up the ladder, that kind of improvement is far more difficult to achieve.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

All I want to know is whether you want to double the bet. You are so smug and the truth is you know very little. You are going to get flat waxed and be left wondering what happened. It's very sad that you are so reviled and barred from Cue and Cushion.

Let's both send another 10k to Mike Page tomorrow. Make it a $40,000 match. I don't think you have the stones or the backers.

Stan Shuffett has knowledge that can and does improve a player's game quickly. But you are so obtuse you will NEVER understand or benefit from it.

I will be HAPPY to challenge you to a game of horse for $1000 a shot. When I am done with you you will probably want to quit pool forever - which would make many people around you very happy.
 
By the way tonight I won my first ever games of Kentucky Bank Pool. Although I had played bank pool before and run two fives back to back I had never played in Kentucky against a bonafide bank pool player. I won four games making some great banks and he played way under speed missing a lot of banks which I would think are kind of hangers for a good bank player.

My banking is absolutely two balls better.
 
OK we can stay with rotation games.....

If a player averages 3 balls before making an error they are shooting .600

4 Balls is .800 No shot at cashing in an event
5 is .833
6 is .857 Cashing in most events
7 is .875
8 is .888
9 is .900 Threat to win a pro event
10 is .909
11 is .917 Shane's average but will shoot higher or a little lower....
12 is .923
13 is .929
14 is .933
15 is .938
16 is .941
17 is .944
18 is .947
19 is .950 Earl shot a .954 and lost to Niels in Derby
20 is .952
21 is .955
22 is .957
23 is .958
24 is .960
25 is .962
26 is .963
27 is .964 Niels shot this in the Earl match
28 is .966 Lee Van shot a .967 at the Open Last year

Keep in mind that after you have gained a few balls gaining more as your average is a heroic undertaking....

This may not be what some people think about when they say they got better by a ball or 2 but this is the best way to gauge where you are by discussing balls.... In my current state I would say SVB is 5-6 balls better than me... Man that's depressing.. But it's a fact.....

Chris
 
Gerry said:
Playing rotation games IMO makes it tough to handicap players.....not a big enough variation between levels.

NOW....14.1 will tell you very simply how good a player is. To say a player is a 50 ball runner tells me exactly what kind of thing to expect when I play them. A 100 ball runner is a killer IMO....100 gets thrown around too much IMO....it is NOT easy, even for good players.....watch the Derby 14.1 challenge.

I do hear what you are saying though. Trying to determine your progress is tough.....saying "I am playing better" is hard to understand.....how much better? right?

G.
Click to expand...

This is why I have to question all the straight pool hype some players get.
There was a time when all the good players played 100 no count , that means if they didn't run 100 or more they got zero for that inning.
How many players today want to play like that and spot, even a B player?
 
Also another way to gauge improvement is to play the ghost with balls. So if you can beat the ghost giving yourself the five out and then later with just the seven out then you can say you're two balls better.

But mostly it's just something that people feel about themselves and if you're in a pool room consistently that others notice about you.

Also - since my comments are clearly the catalyst here - you can get better in two ways, in knowledge and execution. My knowledge increased at least two balls during my month in Midwest City and my execution has increased at least a ball or two during the past 15+ hours at Stan Shuffett's house.
 
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I believe rotation is the best way to refer to improvement in terms of balls. Straight pool doesn't translate well. One of the regulars at our old hall was way over a 100 ball runner in straight pool when I was only running high thirties but he couldn't beat me in 9 ball. I'd say most times when people say they have improved more than a ball they are exaggerating.
 
Banks said:
Dear AZB,

If somebody says that they've improved 1 or 2 balls.. four, five or six times.. does that mean that they're now up to 12 balls better? I've always been kind of curious about counting "ball better" improvements.

I try to measure my improvements more in terms of league play, since it's measured on more levels. For example, "I'm a 4." then on to "I'm a decent 4.", again to "I'm a good 4." and eventually moving to "I'm a (weak) 5." and so on. Or, for BCA, A, Master, etc and the same, being weak, decent or good/strong.

Another example.. if somebody plays at a national Master level, what would it mean to be a ball or two better? Can they then go on to get another ball or two better occasionally? Seems to me that it would almost start going into fractions.

Sincerely,
Confused in Portland
Click to expand...

The comparison is relative - If I improve 2 balls, that is vs my former skill
level. The terminolgy has been used for eons.

There are a couple serious problems with league comparisons. first is the
painfully obvious fact that many people don't play in leagues. Also, what
if you are talking about games that aren't typically leaguelized like
One Pocket or esp Bank Pool.
Plus, all leagues are not created equal. An "A" in one league might be a
"C-" in another.

Dale(living league free)
 
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