Handicapping has ruined the SPORT!

Don't know

I will not go so far as to say handicapping has ruined Pool, but I will say it has ruined a lot of players. I have seen to many players that do not want to improve their game, let the suckers practice and improve their game with the spot it becomes an even match.I think it is unfair for the person who puts the time in to give weight to someone who feels it is a waste of time.That is just my opinion.
 
CreeDo said:
Well there ya go... That's pretty much what I'm saying - guys like you (maybe me too) just want to be good at pool, period. Even without a tournament, we'd find some other yardstick like the APA. I bet you could be on a desert island with one table and you'd want to get better.

Those guys who have been APA 5's for ten years... forget it, they don't think like us, they just don't want to do the work. Take away the handicapped tournaments and they'll just bang balls socially or quit.
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Couldn't say it better myself. To add to it players that want to see the top of the game will always come up. I have no problem with people that play for fun and need a handicap because they don't practice. Hell let them sandbag their way to a few APA prizes. Great players think beyond APA prize money. You don't see SVB dogging easy shots to play in Vegas as a 5
 
Couldn't have said it better myself CreeDo. Great players will always rise thru the ranks and strive to be pros. Handicaps are fine for recreational players who want to just have fun. Sandbaggers can stay and win APA prizes. SVB doesn't dog easy shots at bars so that he can play as a 5 in Vegas. No he wins around 100k a yr in the big league. There were many great tournament players like him before and there will be many after
 
JB Cases said:
Not if you're the guy giving up the handicaps. Then winning feels pretty good.

I do hate it when I come up against someone that is underrated. But then again I also try to adopt the attitude that even if we played even it could end up with him ahead of me so I still have to fight to win.

I have often asked to be moved to the highest handicap just so I could chase that high of winning it without getting weight from anyone.
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True that...But I think there are players who want the rep without the work and then there are players who would be insulted to win because of weight. I personally learn from getting beat...a lot. I am a better player for taking my knocks.
 
sjm said:
Ah, someone that gets it.

Amateur pool is healthy and handicapping is the main reason. Players of all skill levels want a chance to win. Without handicapping, the leagues would gradually die and we'd be left with few who play pool at all.

Handicapping is one of the pillars on which amateur golf is built, allowing players of unequal ability to compete on even terms. In this respect, golf and pool are the same.

Handicapping in amateur pool is something I greatly favor.

Top amateur golfers make little, if any, money from it, and top amateur pool players should expect the same.
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Yeah, good points.
 
David Marcus said:
Back in my day, there was no such thing as a handicapped TOURNAMENT!
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Yeah, and I miss those days. Even about any local tournaments you visited were completely full, at like 60 players etc... I actually laugh inside a little when I see the regional handicap tournaments I had went to in the recet past say, yeah, handicapping helps bring more players in. It will be like 12 people show up heh...

I have completely quit playing any of them. The last guy I played was for me a race to 11 and them 4. They won with 4 to my 10 and celebrated. What was there to celebrate? They accomplished nothing :rolleyes: You will never have to many great future champions out of something like that.
 
David Marcus said:
I never looked at it as donating, I always viewed it as paying for an education!
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Education? It really didn't take long to learn to rack, and I could already sit and watch. I think without handicapping newer players would really shy away, the sport wouldn't have near the numbers that it has today.
It sounds like up in your area there are plenty of players that enjoy pool as you do and on your level. I'm sure they have just as many non handicapped tournaments as they do handicapped. Just play in the ones where you don't have to give up a spot.
But really, name one sport that isn't handicapped in one way or another. Go to Las Vegas or Atlantic City, every sports book has a line, try to get someone to make a bet without it
 
Handicapping = politics. So yes, though it's a necessary evil it does bring in a load of bs. Sometimes I don't like the bs and prefer non handicapped tournaments even I never win and I'm just an average apa player. If you equate the table time (not to mention the completion) you get for say $15 for a tournament versus just renting a table, it's an excellent deal.
 
I used to run a handicapped tournament that would bring 30-48 players out every Thursday... Sure some of the guys tried to sandbag to their advantage but I was always trying to get to the highest ranking we had...

A friend of mine would always win a cpl more tournaments than I would over the year and would end up with the highest handicap with me chasing at his heals... I wanted the highest handicap more than the cash as it was a goal that kept me focused and it also let me have a way to gauge my progress..

When I started I was new to anything but bar pool so I was an average ranking... The last year I ran the tournaments I was an 8 with the 8 and Stoetzel was a 9 with the 8 and we would fight tooth and nail all year to win as many as possible... I'd catch him and he'd win the next week.. Was good times....

Chris
 
pt109 said:
Handicapping didn't hurt golf...I suspect it may have helped it.
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Bingo.

The HC tourneys brought more money into the tourney for bigger payoffs.... HELLO... lights are on, but nobody is home :) The good players could outplay the HC, but NOT always :)
 
Miz

ChicagoRJ said:
C'mon Chop, there was NO payout for the US Open, for a World Championship, or from sponsors back in the day? Seems like Earl, Buddy, Nick, Miz and many other did OK for themselves..... Im sure they did not get rich, but they weren't eating trophies :)

I'll take a Gold medal in track, rather than win $2K in a foot race in my backyard, any day of the week and twice on Sunday.....
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Its funny you mention Mizerak , he quoted in a article I read and I am adlibbing here , that the most money he made in pool was when he shot the miller lite beer commercial , he said he made more from that 30 second commercial than he did in any of his tournament wins, Also at the height of his game in the 70s he was still working as a high school teacher to pay the bills
 
David Marcus said:
Nobody out there remembers THOSE DAYS!
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I remember those days. I would put on a local tournament with $1000.00 added from my pocket no greens fees and could not get 15 players to put up $50.00 if any of the best local players came. Unless they are bigger tournaments, like pro level, without handicaps you will get no players.

The ironic thing is, the best players who are supposed to be the ones with all the heart and gamble don't want to play in handicapped tournaments because it is too tough.

They don't even have the heart of the average players, who they knock as being nits, who do nothing but donate at tournaments and never win or have the slightest chance of winning. So I ask you, who are the real nits?
 
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David Marcus said:
Thought it might be time to revisit this thread...:grin:
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Not really but since you insist...

I'll add my voice to those that have already said it. Handicapped leagues gets people playing pool that wouldn't have otherwise.

* Some of those people will get the bug and strive to improve, start caring about the professional scene (such as it is), etc.
* Some of those people will sandbag.
* Some of those people will give up even with the handicap.
* Most of those people will only play on league nights, have fun (a four letter word on this forum) with their friends, and never really get any better, which is totally their right.

ALL of those people are buying cues and cases and cue holders and chalk holders, etc. and going to poolrooms and/or bars one or more times a week to pay play the game.

So let's get rid of handicaps and all the people who play in handicapped events and see how the game holds up after that.
 
Hence why I call Apa and tap leagues a double edge sword. I think it stops many people from wanting to get better because it hurts there team or why even get better when I can win with my handy cap. On the other hand pool sure isn't in a place to turn away people who want to play the game and support the people making cues and everything that goes along with them. Time will tell I guess ...


krupa said:
Not really but since you insist...

I'll add my voice to those that have already said it. Handicapped leagues gets people playing pool that wouldn't have otherwise.

* Some of those people will get the bug and strive to improve, start caring about the professional scene (such as it is), etc.
* Some of those people will sandbag.
* Some of those people will give up even with the handicap.
* Most of those people will only play on league nights, have fun (a four letter word on this forum) with their friends, and never really get any better, which is totally their right.

ALL of those people are buying cues and cases and cue holders and chalk holders, etc. and going to poolrooms and/or bars one or more times a week to pay play the game.

So let's get rid of handicaps and all the people who play in handicapped events and see how the game holds up after that.
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Frank C is a smart man

I honestly think the young players of today are not really trying to learn, they are trying to win. Period. In the 80s and 90s you had the Monday night 5 dollar tournament. If you remember, there were about 3 or 4 that had a shot of winning that non-handicapped tournament. And you also noticed those same 3 or 4 guys snapped it off each and every week until finally the lesser player stopped showing up. Soon you go from a full 16 and a waiting list every week to 12 to 10 to none! The top players hijacked the local tournament each and every week until they killed the tournament. That was probably true for just about every town. Then they started handicapping and those top guys still won most of the time, but now you have a few others that getting in the money and even winning every once in a while. Players of today, especially the league and recreational players dont want to keep pouring money into tournaments they have no shot of winning and very little shot of cashing because of the same guys winning it every time. I think the reason the handicap stops are doing so well and gaining more and more traction is because its giving that recreational player a better shot and make no mistake, you have to have that recreational entry money in order for any non pro stop to have continued success. Great example is the New Omega tour here in the Dallas/ Ft. Worth area. It was almost completely full before the tournament stop that was going on was finished. There is over 20 people on the waiting list and the one for April is 3/4 full and its 6 weeks away. Its a simple handicap where the pros or higher level players have to play to win and they still win. Handicapping has truly helped pool tournaments in my opinion. The days of getting your brains beat out playing even by those who make a living at this great game is long over.

Frank C
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Frank is right!

I can honestly say that I have paid for lessons numerous times, Randy G, Sean King, Tony Sulsar - I own a 9 ft diamond and I play alot!. However I also work 40 hrs a week I have a wife and baby, I have another daughter that lives in another state that I make time to go visit and make sure that she gets her visits here and we spend time together.

So for people to say that I'm not trying or I just want an easier way to win is BS, I don't play in the Midwest 9 ball tourney's, very often, I have a once or twice and it sucks getting your brains beat in by the guy who is not going to win but is better than I am and maybe he has a full time job, but maybe he is just more talented that I am.

Handicapped tourneys and league has helped pool a tremendously, look at APA its the largest in the country. Yes people sandbag, but they cut that shit out at vegas and people get moved up. Life isn't fair so I don't know why people think pool should be!

Jamaica Joes in OKC just had a great tournament this weekend, over 110 players and like Frank C said the Omega Billiard tour in DFW is thriving.
 
It's also worth noting that as far as leagues go, there are some out there where intentional sandbagging is counter-productive.

In NAPA for instance, if you win your rating goes up, if you lose it goes down. There's no way to "game" that system: You can't win and keep your rating down unlike other leagues.

I don't know if it's common throughout, but our NAPA division is "no-limit" so we don't have to worry about meeting some arbitrary SL cap and our players can get as good as they want without breaking up teams.
 
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