US Bans sale of all ivory across state lines

Are they gonna come to the pool hall and confiscate your cue with Ivory in it just to make an example out of someone to say we are enforcing the law ?.

No, but they'll jump at the chance to make a huge "bust" at a tradeshow like SBE, Derby City, etc. The headlines will be fantastic: "Feds arrest 40 pool cue makers for selling endangered elephant ivory!" They'll make sure to have TV crews on site to record the group arrest as cue makers are escorted to the FBI van.

They'll do this because they know the viewing public will applaud them for saving elephants. That's all that matters...justify the agency's budget. It's only in the news for one day -- the media NEVER reports that Joe Schmoe was found innocent.

After each cue maker has spent $10,000 on lawyers, there won't be one conviction. Settle, promise to never do it again, give up a few offending cues...whatever deal your lawyer works out.

Your alternative is to spend $200,000 to go to court. Your lawyer will explain to you that this is not a criminal matter in which the government has to prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt." It's a civil suit in which they only need to show "a preponderance of the evidence." After combing through your records for the last seven years (you've kept good records...that agree with your IRS tax returns, right?), they'll have more evidence than they need.

In previous threads about burning confiscated ivory, I've suggested the ivory should be burned...along with the poachers. I hate the whole illegal ivory trade. But you've got to understand that this is how government agencies work: it's not about saving elephants or even enforcing the law. It's about looking good in front of the public (and Congress) and justifying the agency's budget. If it was your job and salary on the line, you'd do the same thing.

Cues with ivory, at a tradeshow, is a recipe for destruction.

I've been in that world a long time, RJ. You must be the one in a fantasy land if you have time to post 11,000 times on a bulletin board.

Well RJ, he's got you on that one. Hard to argue with that logic. :grin:
 
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I seriously doubt this law will save even ONE elephant. The USA is not the importer of poached Ivory. We are using Ivory that was harvested 40 to 50 years ago on average. All it is doing is making a product that has already been here for decades illegal to sell.

It is all just for show to make the liberal base think they are actually doing something. Why not just help fund the hunting of poachers? They shoot them or hang them in many African countries. More law enforcement in Africa is the key. Not here where the Ivory industry is already dying off little by little as the supply dries up.

Why not crack down on import and export by enforcing the laws already on the book since 1989. Oh they have already done that and found that there was almost no more violations going on, so since they had no criminal activity to prosecute they needed to pass new laws to give them something to go after.

Once they started prosecuting and confiscating cues the Americans quit sneaking them in and out of the country. So now that they can't find any criminal activity, they want to make us criminals so they can prosecute us.

What a senseless piece of legislation.

Like you said, senseless. Lets all have an ivory burning in the yard.

The only solution that will ever work is conservation. The bleeding hearts will never donate their money to the African nations and the reserves to help pay for the care, management, and protection (from poachers) of the herds. The reserves that offer legal and rare hunts at very expensive prices are generating income to do this. The reserves/nations that don't offer the hunts don't have the income. Their herds simply are not take care of as well nor protected from poachers as well.

Maybe Obama can start sending Africa a few billion of our dollars to help out.
 
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There are an estimated 470,000 elephants left, and about 35,000 were poached in 2012. 8% of the population poached every year. Can anybody read and understand those numbers and still say that it's not worth making an effort because it's all the Chinese, or that the government is taking away our rights? 100 animals PER DAY being poached for ivory.

This law will have an effect on demand for ivory in the U.S. Most cue makers will stop using ivory in their cues. Most if not all suppliers of cue makers will stop buying ivory. Multiply that many times over for many other industries that currently use ivory. Result: Less damand for raw ivory....simple economics.

Cues that are already out there will INCREASE in value, not DECREASE....simple economics.

But nobody's mentioned the real elephant in the room: HUNTERS WILL STILL BE ALLOWED TO GO OVER TO AFRICA AND KILL 2 ANIMALS PER YEAR!.

Are you freaknig kidding me? It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that ladies and gentlemen.....

How many humans die each day to save the US Dollar from extinction?

Those places that allow hunting need to have herds thinned or they overburden their habitat. Reading is fundamental. Those places with the highest occurrence of poaching do not allow hunting and have the least amount of resources to protect the animals. Most animals are also killed out side of the reserves, where those charged with protection the animals have no jurisdiction. Want to help? Send them money. Want to act like you are helping? Don't buy ivory.

Pool cue makers/collectors are not the only ones that will be effected by this. Other industries also use ivory and those people will pretty much be out of work.

The government collecting fines for infractions will contribute zero dollars towards helping African nations with few resources combat the escalating war against not only the elephant but those who try to protect it. So while it is a nice talking piece about helping it does little or nothing on the ground where it matters... and never will as the US has no intention of sending financial help. Want to stop poaching? Send in some troops with more firepower and make it too costly in terms of lives for the poachers to continue. Other wise this bs about no sales over State boarders boarders on the ludicrous. Just another intrusion by the Federal Government to limit your rights and take your money.
 
Of course people who live in The US will say these new laws are stupid and that they are meant to harm all you guys. You live in a poor country and of course your well being is worth more than the future of elephants. You are just trying to stay alive. Man is small in the universe and our problems are huge. Your situation is not unlike the people in poor countries in Africa, when looking at this: http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedstates you understand where the effed up values come from. If we didn't need too worry about debts and poverty we could focus on what will unite us in the future. We need too unite for the sake of our tiny piece of land in this vast part of the gigantic universe.


Best regards
 
Right ... the gov would not have to step in if some persons could "police" themselves, but in this instance, it has been shown they cannot. Oh, did someone lose their job over this ? Oh, that's right, it's still about money, not what is right and wrong... how silly of me not to see the big picture.

Joel hercek has a 10 year waiting list. I'm guessing, and I could be going out on a ledge here, but NOT one person called to take them off the list when this was announced :rolleyes:

I am sure you are quite right and that there are hundreds of cuemakers using illegal ivory in every one of their cues. You don't even seem to know what the picture is so you not seeing it is hardly a revelation.
 
How many humans die each day to save the US Dollar from extinction?

Those places that allow hunting need to have herds thinned or they overburden their habitat. Reading is fundamental. Those places with the highest occurrence of poaching do not allow hunting and have the least amount of resources to protect the animals. Most animals are also killed out side of the reserves, where those charged with protection the animals have no jurisdiction. Want to help? Send them money. Want to act like you are helping? Don't buy ivory.

Pool cue makers/collectors are not the only ones that will be effected by this. Other industries also use ivory and those people will pretty much be out of work.

The government collecting fines for infractions will contribute zero dollars towards helping African nations with few resources combat the escalating war against not only the elephant but those who try to protect it. So while it is a nice talking piece about helping it does little or nothing on the ground where it matters... and never will as the US has no intention of sending financial help. Want to stop poaching? Send in some troops with more firepower and make it too costly in terms of lives for the poachers to continue. Other wise this bs about no sales over State boarders boarders on the ludicrous. Just another intrusion by the Federal Government to limit your rights and take your money.

Why do we even try? People actually think legislation can force the the worldwide interest in ivory to go away.

You want to stop poaching, create a legal trade that is strictly managed in a way that guarantees the survivability of the species. Once that is done, every elephant has a concrete financial value attached to it. With that comes tax money. With that comes governmental support and protection. With that comes an industry and way of life. Poaching would be reduced to an insignificant minimum. That would take a lot of planning, work, and time. People don't have the guts for that. Easier to just claim we need to save the elephant and make everything illegal and hold our breath.
 
Well, my statement was poorly worded, I agree. I don't consider any life form insignificant or unworthy of protection. All animals play a part in the ecosystem as a whole. The point I was trying to make is that if we cannot protect one of the most iconic and beloved animals of all, what hope is there for the planet?

Some people on the forum are talking paranoid right wing nonsense about the goverment infringing on their rights, but they conveniently forget that goverment resolutions actually are there for our protection as well. People are too thick headed or selfish to understand that without rules like this, industrialists would pollute without any thought as to what the air or water quality would be like, or hunt animals to extinction.
People cannot be trusted to act in accordance with the public interest, they are selfish and short sighted.

Look at China with their lack of environmental protection. People in Beijing are gasping for air and people are getting lung diseases in a matter of a few years!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rise-high-commuters-hundreds-metres-away.html Lives are cut short by 5 and a half years in the most polluted regions!! Those are not insignificant numbers. 5 years of your life, would you give it up?
That could very well have been Americans or Europeans but our goverments saw fit to institute laws to protect the environment. The Chineese are now desperately trying to implement the changes which have been made long ago in the west. Goverment regulations on lead in gasoline for instance, may very well have saved lives in the thousands. Lead poisoning makes you impulsive and violent and there are actually numbers showing a decline in violence that is correlated to banning leaded fuel although the causation cannot be absolutely proven. There are hundreds of other examples of the goverment "infringing on the rights" of industrialists for the public good. When you listen to the people on the forum you get the sense that as long as they can drive their polluting cars and flash their ivory cues, the rest of the world can go to hell, and it would have, unless somebody with a bit more foresight had seen fit to make rules of this nature.

It is unfortunate that we will have a more limited selection of cues and cars to choose from in the future, but it is a small sacrifice, when considering the polluted, elephant free world that would result without these rules and laws.

Spoken like a true socialist. Only governments have a conscious. Yaaa, right.
 
There are an estimated 470,000 elephants left, and about 35,000 were poached in 2012. 8% of the population poached every year. Can anybody read and understand those numbers and still say that it's not worth making an effort because it's all the Chinese, or that the government is taking away our rights? 100 animals PER DAY being poached for ivory.

This law will have an effect on demand for ivory in the U.S. Most cue makers will stop using ivory in their cues. Most if not all suppliers of cue makers will stop buying ivory. Multiply that many times over for many other industries that currently use ivory. Result: Less damand for raw ivory....simple economics.

Cues that are already out there will INCREASE in value, not DECREASE....simple economics.

But nobody's mentioned the real elephant in the room: HUNTERS WILL STILL BE ALLOWED TO GO OVER TO AFRICA AND KILL 2 ANIMALS PER YEAR!.

Are you freaknig kidding me? It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that ladies and gentlemen.....

I agree with you about the hypocrisy in allowing Americans to hunt elephants. Makes no sense.

I must admit, much of this has me thinking about whether I'm an indirect party to this slaughter. Right at this time, I'm having a real big cue made and my plans include ivory. I've got a call in to my cue maker to discuss other materials. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of any stupid suggestion to prohibit trade or sale of cues already made, but do think we all should be open to perhaps changing how we order cues to be built in the future.

I'm wondering, since most of the cue makers you have listed of which you are an active dealer for, still use ivory for anyone having the money and desire. Would you be willing to refuse selling any of their products until they go on record as no longer making cues with any elephant products? Or is this also "simple economics"?

Paul
 
Maybe they could take all the DEA out of South America and post them in Africa.

They don't seem to be doing a real bang up job at the moment where they are.
 
Don't listen to the optimists.....this law is going to kill the value of pool cues with ivory, especially ivory joint cues.
Several pages back, I posted an offer of help to distressed AZers.
I don't want to see you get burned and so let me that that anchor off of your hands.

Sure the price will suffer but you'll be eliminating a problem and I'll deal with the just awful, horrible consequences of owning cues with ivory.
What the heck, I don't mind helping people......So look at the below list of cue-makers in case you have any......don't get stuck with it.

Richard Black
Joel Hercek
Ernie Guitterez
Dennis Searing
Ed Prewitt
James White
Bill Stroud.

If you have a ivory laiden cue from one of these cue-makers, and the cue is >18.0 ozs & < 19.0 ozs, shafts are 12/.75 -13.0mm and a ivory joint
(only flat faced or piloted) is a must, and the cue is at least level 4 rated pool cue, send me a PM and let's get rid of your problem now before it's too late.

Matt B.

p.s. I think this ivory issue is a bunch of hogwash but I'm probably wrong but why even take any chances....sell me your cue now.
I will use my IRA funds and buy as much as I can...... as long as you're prepared to take a hit on the cue price, I'm willing to assume the risk of owning ivory cues.
 
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I agree with you about the hypocrisy in allowing Americans to hunt elephants. Makes no sense.

I must admit, much of this has me thinking about whether I'm an indirect party to this slaughter. Right at this time, I'm having a real big cue made and my plans include ivory. I've got a call in to my cue maker to discuss other materials. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of any stupid suggestion to prohibit trade or sale of cues already made, but do think we all should be open to perhaps changing how we order cues to be built in the future.

I'm wondering, since most of the cue makers you have listed of which you are an active dealer for, still use ivory for anyone having the money and desire. Would you be willing to refuse selling any of their products until they go on record as no longer making cues with any elephant products? Or is this also "simple economics"?

Paul


Schon is the only brand I carry that uses it. Today I removed any of their cues that contain ivory and their ivory ferrule shafts. I know they would only use pre-ban ivory, but I do believe that step by step we can eliminate demand for ivory.

I'm sure they and other cue makers who currently use ivory will adjust and it will be business as usual.
 
Ready To Roll

Grandpa Ran Hooch.............. I'm runin Ivory.
 

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I have to chime in here

Take our troops out of Afghanistan and send them to Africa. Have them surround every elephant and protect them.............. I'll spend my taxes for that effort any day.

It wouldn't hurt to start making cues out of alternative materials... Heck for the prices of them, just go gold and silver.....materials are the smallest cost.
 
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Ivory

I guess all gus szamboti cues and george balabuska cues fit the pre ban ivory law. May they rest in peace. Southwest cues and sugarcreek cues will be worth double now. Rich aka the skunk.
 
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This just in...

For Immediate Release
February 11, 2014
FACT SHEET: National Strategy for Combating Firearms Trafficking & Commercial Ban on Trade in Firearms.
Today the United States announced a National Strategy for Combating Firearms Trafficking. The Strategy will strengthen U.S. leadership on addressing the serious and urgent conservation and global security threat posed by illegal trade in firearms.
In addition to the strategy, we are also announcing a ban on commercial trade of all firearms, which will enhance our efforts to protect iconic species like humans by prohibiting the import, export, or resale within the United States of firearms except in a very limited number of circumstances.
Taken together, these actions will help ensure that the United States is not contributing to the killing of countless millions of humans.
THE STRATEGY
The National Strategy for Combating Firearms Trafficking establishes guiding principles for U.S. efforts to stem illegal trade in firearms. It sets three strategic priorities: strengthening domestic and global enforcement; reducing demand for illegally traded firearms at home and abroad; and strengthening partnerships with international partners, local communities, NGOs, private industry, and others to combat illegal firearms sales and trade.
THE FIREARMS BAN
Today we are also announcing a ban on the commercial trade of firearms, which will enhance our ability to protect humans by prohibiting commercial imports, exports and domestic sale of firearms, with a very limited number of exceptions. This ban is the best way to help ensure that U.S. markets do not contribute to the further decline of humans.
To begin implementing these new controls, federal Departments and Agencies will immediately undertake administrative actions to:
• Prohibit Commercial Import of all Firearms: All commercial imports of firearms, including antiques, will be prohibited.
• Prohibit Commercial Export of all Firearms: All commercial exports will be prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, certain noncommercial items, and in exceptional circumstances permitted under the Patriot Act.
• Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of all Firearms: We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully bought prior to 1990 for hand guns and 1975 for assault rifles, or under an exemption document.
• Clarify the Definition of “Antique”: To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Patriot Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.
• Restore Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to protect American Humans: We will re-invoke the previous Brady Bill and expand it to include background checks on every gun owner regardless of whether previous background checks have been carried out.
• Support Limited Sport-hunting: We will limit the number of sport-hunted trophies to two hunters per year. A National lottery, instead of State lotteries will be implemented.
The United States will continue to lead global efforts to protect humans and preserve our planet’s natural beauty for future generations. Combating firearm trafficking will require the shared understanding, commitment, and efforts of the world’s governments, intergovernmental organizations, NGOs, corporations, civil society, and individuals. At this week’s London Conference on the Illegal Firearms Trade, we hope other countries will join us in taking ambitious action to combat firearms trafficking. In the coming months, we will take further steps to implement the National Strategy, and will work with the Congress to strengthen existing laws and adopt new ones to enhance our ability to address this global challenge.
 
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