Arguing on another forum, is this a foul in BCA, APA, and VNEA?

John Brumback said:
Push shot= foul. JB
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This is the APA quote on push shots-

PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball is frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and isn’t a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being accused of shooting a push shot by hitting the cue ball into the object ball at an angle, or by elevating the butt of your cue about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that are frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty

I have never played APA, but this is their rule. I don't know how to apply it to this situation. I still scream foul, but this rule was pointed out to me by another user.
 
If you mean double kiss...No

1st, if cb ob and rail are frozen...you couldn't double hit. Second, if you look closely, he is using extreme spin and hitting the cue ball away just less than 90 degrees. I don't think this would be double kissing.

Daren- who has been wrong befor4!
 
jmizzo said:
Believe it or not, there are multiple people arguing that it isn't a foul.
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In the APA rules, they have it worded that anytime the cue causes the cue ball to change paths it is a foul. Now on that shot , since the direction of the cue ball should be towards the rail, direction of the cue stick. Since the cue ball travels toward the pocket, the cue has to be doing something to other than a single hit. Basically it's a fancy double hit with throw.

Edit: Easiest way to think about this is, can you strike the same shot hard and get the same reaction? If not, then it's a foul.

Edit #2: Isn't a push shot when the cue & tip push the cue ball along, longer than 1second of contact, before the cue ball strikes the object ball?
 
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I think clearly its a push shot.


SouthernDraw said:
1st, if cb ob and rail are frozen...you couldn't double hit. Second, if you look closely, he is using extreme spin and hitting the cue ball away just less than 90 degrees. I don't think this would be double kissing.

Daren- who has been wrong befor4!
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Isn't there a ruling that states if the cue ball is frozen to the object ball you can drive through the shot since a double hit is not a factor?

Also, since the stroke in the video is at an angle across the face of the cue ball, we have to ask
is it really pushing through the OB.

Seems to me the real debate is whether wedging the object ball against the rail while the cue ball is frozen creates a situation that would be considered a foul.

Is the "potential" extend level of contact created by the frozen rail causing the shot to be a push?
 
If you can duplicate that shot by moving the cue ball 12" away from object ball I would call it a good shot, if not it is a push. If the cue ball and object ball only follow that same path when they are frozen together it must be a push shot.
 
In the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship when cue ball and object ball are frozen
but your not shooting into a rail you can shoot straight through the two balls.

I have it on an Accu-stats DVD, and Danny says that's a foul. He is then corrected
by the other commentator and told the rule states you can shoot straight through
the balls when cue ball and object ball are frozen.

But cue ball and object ball frozen and then object ball also frozen straight into a rail
if you shoot straight into that it is definitely a foul.
 
VNEA General Definitions

7. PUSH SHOT FOULS: It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.) With a cue ball and object ball frozen, shooting the shot from any angle other than at least 45 degrees above, or at least 45 degrees to the right or at least 45 degrees to the left of center from the straight line of the frozen balls is a foul and must be so called.
 
Hay Brains

To the Op:
The Cue ball passes the objectball that never leaves the rail. The only way it can do that is to be pushed through it passing it and hitting the rail and bouncing away from the rail. If the rock hits the rail or if the shooter presses their tip on the Cueball and continues to have contact spinning the balls is the foul.
There are two fouls occurring on this shot. A push and a double hit.
Nick :)
 
100% foul...

It is the constant pressure the allows the ball to move sideways.. That is not a stroke, It is wedging the balls against the rail.

Dudley
 
Foularoonie.

Altho, the frozen ball push thru rule is correct, ( I don't think it is as much a push thru as much as you won't Double Hit), in order to do this trick, the tip of the cue is staying on the cue ball longer than necessary. ( I think true definition of a Push Shot). I have done it and seen it done on videos where the tip of the cue is just placed on the cue ball and pushed.

One has to put pressure on the cue ball and have the tip come off at a bit of an angle to get the rail ball to release and spin down the rail.

He may have stroked the cue a couple of times but the end result was the shooter placing the tip on the cue ball.

A fun little trick that anyone can do at a first try tho.

If you found yourself with this shot while playing bar rules, would anybody say anything about it, other than good shot Buddy.

Terry - Been known to scoop the odd ball or 2 while playing Bangers in a bar.

The PHJ shot at the party where he places the cue ball and eight ball on the rail, aims the cue to the cross side pocket, comes back and pockets the eight is another on that is a bit tougher to do, but once you practice it on any particular table, you will eventually get it down with considerable consistency.
 
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nick serdula said:
To the Op:
The Cue ball passes the objectball that never leaves the rail. The only way it can do that is to be pushed through it passing it and hitting the rail and bouncing away from the rail. If the rock hits the rail or if the shooter presses their tip on the Cueball and continues to have contact spinning the balls is the foul.
There are two fouls occurring on this shot. A push and a double hit.
Nick :)
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possible 3rd foul?

I don't know if there is an official concept...'trapping' the ob with the cb that is 'trapped' by the cue tip and allowing the magnified 'gear effect' of both balls down the rail.

...fun example of some spheroid shennanigans..nice trick shot...but sure looks like a foul...that action aint natural.


Isn't there something similar in 1P, where you push and trap the cb inside the pocket point to hook the opponent? How is it treated there?
 
In what you all consider real pool that is probably a foul, in the APA I wouldn't be so sure. In the APA the way it's been explained to me is that the cue stick may contact the cue ball one time in the course of a shot, but it isn't specified how long that contact may be. My thought is that an actual push shot would be nearly impossible without your tip being at least 2" or 3" long and almost pillow soft. In the APA in the example given it doesn't look like a foul, but if I were refereeing that isn't the angle I'd choose to make a call. The second example is absolutely a foul IMO, the first, eh... questionable
 
3RAILKICK said:
possible 3rd foul?

I don't know if there is an official concept...'trapping' the ob with the cb that is 'trapped' by the cue tip and allowing the magnified 'gear effect' of both balls down the rail.

...fun example of some spheroid shennanigans..nice trick shot...but sure looks like a foul...that action aint natural.


Isn't there something similar in 1P, where you push and trap the cb inside the pocket point to hook the opponent? How is it treated there?
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In one pocket this is bad form... Opens up a can of worms. Freezing the cue to the pocket facing with a push stroke in some tournaments is ball in hand in the kitchen and a foul.

Dudley
 
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