Case maker recommendations
- Thread starter TheThaiger
- Start date
Great. Then in your area they sell for close to retail used in your limited experience.
On AZB the largest marketplace for pool stuff - they don't sell for retail or close to it.
My cases don't hold retail value. Just like a new car the moment they are driven off the lot they lose value. Keyword DRIVEN. My customers buy my cases to USE them and use them hard. They don't buy them for investment potential, they buy them for everyday protection, outstanding function and joy of ownership.
Price is never irrelevant when talking about art or anything else. The fact is that prices are fluid and whatever is popular and hyped up can command a higher price. Change the parameters - make a case EXACTLY like a Ross Tooled Justis but with someone else's brand and it will NOT fetch $3500.
The fact is most people do not think rationally when making purchasing decisions. They don't comparison shop as much as they think they do. That's been researched extensively. And even when they do comparison shop they rarely end up choosing the best "value" item, instead they justify the price of the more expensive one that they wanted in the first place.
Of course cues and cases and pretty much everything on the planet is priced higher than the sum of its parts and labor. Profit is what lubricates the world not break-even propositions.
But that doesn't mean that discussing relative value is off-limits. Competitors thrive on packing more features and benefits into their offerings for less than the competition charges, that is in fact the essence of competition. The evolution of products dictates that products get better and prices get lower for those products. Only in situations where products are touted as "art" or collectible, or rare, or prestigious, etc... do the makers have to invent flowery words and other schemes to entice buyers to spend more for less.
At the end of the day if Justis is to be admired for anything then it's for having the BALLS to ask for $3500 for a Ross tooled case. And that's also the lesson from the research, that people who get higher prices than the item "ought" to cost get them not because the item is "worth" it but because they dare to ask for it.
People like me who operate on a formula to price our work, cost+labor+x% profit, are actually fools for not asking for more because when there are people willing to pay $3500 for a case that costs no more than $1000-$1500 to build then it essentially means we are leaving money on the table. This is great for consumers, not so great for makers trying to stay in business. I run a business with salaries and rent and expenses. Guys like Jack work out of their house with near zero overhead. So it's silly to leave money on the table when we need it more than him to keep going.
Maybe it's time to raise our prices.
You can read all about this yourself - google behavioural economics.
I love mine. Chuck is the best case maker in the USA right now for the Old School classic, J.E.F. Q Cases (Flowers/Van Horn) style. In my opinion of course.
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that's awesome. That's what you should buy a case for. I carry my monster from Roger anytime I carry my cue. Wouldn't have it any other way!
I agree. And if you ever want true custom then head our direction, www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html for the most diversity in cue cases.
And why is this? Why the need to say anything at all to someone like that? Why not just take advantage of their foolishness, beat them if you ever match up in a tourney, and move on? Seems to me giving someone "flak" requires mental and physical energy. What is the benefit to the person that gives it? In other words, what is the return on the investment of that energy? Your statement just sounds mean spirited.
KMRUNOUT
TheThaiger
Banned
Schadenfreude has taken the world by storm.
I love mine. Chuck is the best case maker in the USA right now for the Old School classic, J.E.F. Q Cases (Flowers/Van Horn) style. In my opinion of course.
Thank you for the compliment! :thumbup:
Chuck
He beat Lou in the only head-to-head match they've played. It might not mean anything to you and it might not mean anything to either player. Lou is better on paper. But to say that John can't play when the one and only one time they played one hole ended up a win for John kinda puts your comment in the numbskull category.
But then again, that's not really a surprise.
If John flat-out can't play according to you, does that mean you think his opponent in three weeks can't play either?
Freddie <~~~ let's not let fact get in the way of idiocy
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It means a lot to me. After getting ridiculed for months about adopting Hal's aiming system by Lou and trying in vain to match up with him we finally ended up playing at the Chicago RSB tournament. It was only a piddly race to two but Lou was touted as the heavy favorite to win it.
I showed up late, literally speeding from the Windy City Expo in St. Charles and running into Chris' Billiards to play my matches. With no practice or warm up I beat Deno Andrews in 9 ball, someone else who had tormented me for months about the aiming systems, and then beat Lou in one hole.
To be fair Lou dogged some easy shots but I ran balls also. I got lucky in one of the games when stuck me to the side of the rack and not knowing what to do I simply blasted into the rack and made a ball in my hole and ran out I think iirc. The other game I won I have no idea what happened.
Anyway, it was satisfying to beat him. After that all the talk of him playing me dried up until I got tired of him again berating system users on AZB and gently reminded him who won between us. Then I offered him 9:8 for $100 a game and promised to freeze up $500 and play either until he quit or I lost $500.
Fact is that Thaiger doesn't know jack about pool or pool players. He is a snooker snob who thinks that snooker styles and stances and methods are the only way to play all pocket billiards games. Unfortunately the reality that pool styles and forms are used by the vast majority of major pool tournament winners throughout history disagrees with his perspective.
However here is a guy who could flat out play despite not showing "proper" form. He jumps up on every shot, has a little chicken wing.etc....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dBTngKnX1Q
TheThaiger
Banned
Strange outburst: top straw-manning.
I will judge how Lou plays the second he plasters himself all the over the place, telling people how they should play the game. If and when he puts himself up as an exemplar to follow, I'll comment.
Until then...
I like Lou and Barton. They both make me laugh, albeit in greatly different ways. I don't care who wins, but it seems to me one has painted himself into a corner and set himself up for humiliation and perpetual ridicule, and the other has just got on with it. May the best man win, with class and dignity, and for god's sake, let this end on March 18.
But this thread is about non Barton custom cases - or was meant to be.
I will judge how Lou plays the second he plasters himself all the over the place, telling people how they should play the game. If and when he puts himself up as an exemplar to follow, I'll comment.
Until then...
I like Lou and Barton. They both make me laugh, albeit in greatly different ways. I don't care who wins, but it seems to me one has painted himself into a corner and set himself up for humiliation and perpetual ridicule, and the other has just got on with it. May the best man win, with class and dignity, and for god's sake, let this end on March 18.
But this thread is about non Barton custom cases - or was meant to be.
Perpetual humiliation? How so. Because I stood when someone challenged me to to play for $20,000. It's never humiliation to stand up to a challenge.
Lou thinks he has the nuts so if true then the only issue is that I underestimated him. But if the "underdog" wins then what?
How about this Tim? Now you have a lot of information about cases so why don't you BUY one.
Whitten, Justis, Fields, Volturi, Kinghorn, Castillo, there are MANY MANY other brands. Buy one. Show us that you are truly interested in purchasing a case. In the next few days go ahead and place your order and tell us what you bought.
Perpetual humiliation? How so. Because I stood when someone challenged me to to play for $20,000. It's never humiliation to stand up to a challenge.
Lou thinks he has the nuts so if true then the only issue is that I underestimated him. But if the "underdog" wins then what?
Oh and Lou HAS plastered himself all over telling people how to play. Why do you think we are here? Telling people NOT to try methods is telling them how to play just the same. Standing on authority by telling us that he cashed at five DCCs and beat xxx and yyy to bolster his statements is just the same as any other banger dispensing advice.
As for me, I don't tell people HOW to play. I tell them what works for me and INVITE them to try it. I point them in the direction of quality instructors who can teach them properly.
What do you do to help people play better? Nothing that I have seen.
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How about this Tim? Now you have a lot of information about cases so why don't you BUY one.
Whitten, Justis, Fields, Volturi, Kinghorn, Castillo, there are MANY MANY other brands. Buy one. Show us that you are truly interested in purchasing a case. In the next few days go ahead and place your order and tell us what you bought.
Lou thinks he has the nuts so if true then the only issue is that I underestimated him. But if the "underdog" wins then what?
Oh and Lou HAS plastered himself all over telling people how to play. Why do you think we are here? Telling people NOT to try methods is telling them how to play just the same. Standing on authority by telling us that he cashed at five DCCs and beat xxx and yyy to bolster his statements is just the same as any other banger dispensing advice.
As for me, I don't tell people HOW to play. I tell them what works for me and INVITE them to try it. I point them in the direction of quality instructors who can teach them properly.
What do you do to help people play better? Nothing that I have seen.
----------------------------------
How about this Tim? Now you have a lot of information about cases so why don't you BUY one.
Whitten, Justis, Fields, Volturi, Kinghorn, Castillo, there are MANY MANY other brands. Buy one. Show us that you are truly interested in purchasing a case. In the next few days go ahead and place your order and tell us what you bought.
Can't get to the point any better then this.
Price is never irrelevant when talking about art or anything else. The fact is that prices are fluid and whatever is popular and hyped up can command a higher price. Change the parameters - make a case EXACTLY like a Ross Tooled Justis but with someone else's brand and it will NOT fetch $3500.
The fact is most people do not think rationally when making purchasing decisions. They don't comparison shop as much as they think they do. That's been researched extensively. And even when they do comparison shop they rarely end up choosing the best "value" item, instead they justify the price of the more expensive one that they wanted in the first place.
Of course cues and cases and pretty much everything on the planet is priced higher than the sum of its parts and labor. Profit is what lubricates the world not break-even propositions.
But that doesn't mean that discussing relative value is off-limits. Competitors thrive on packing more features and benefits into their offerings for less than the competition charges, that is in fact the essence of competition. The evolution of products dictates that products get better and prices get lower for those products. Only in situations where products are touted as "art" or collectible, or rare, or prestigious, etc... do the makers have to invent flowery words and other schemes to entice buyers to spend more for less.
At the end of the day if Justis is to be admired for anything then it's for having the BALLS to ask for $3500 for a Ross tooled case. And that's also the lesson from the research, that people who get higher prices than the item "ought" to cost get them not because the item is "worth" it but because they dare to ask for it.
People like me who operate on a formula to price our work, cost+labor+x% profit, are actually fools for not asking for more because when there are people willing to pay $3500 for a case that costs no more than $1000-$1500 to build then it essentially means we are leaving money on the table. This is great for consumers, not so great for makers trying to stay in business. I run a business with salaries and rent and expenses. Guys like Jack work out of their house with near zero overhead. So it's silly to leave money on the table when we need it more than him to keep going.
Maybe it's time to raise our prices.
You can read all about this yourself - google behavioural economics.
I'd say if anything you confirmed my response. Price is irrelevant. People will pay litteral MILLIONS for a painting that they can get a reproduction, or print for pennies on the dollar. WHY???? Because they want it.
When you look at a cue or a case as purely a tool to do a job, there is no logical way to justify my $4500 dollar playing cue, when Keith's entry level plays just as good. Your tooled cases cost FAR more than your rugged, but do the exact same job. And there are millions of other examples.
IMO, you don't charge enough, neither do a bunch of case makers. Jack could ask double and still be backed up on order non-stop. How could I say it's a rip off, if people are still knocking down the door to order. Same could be said for JB Cases, Volturi, Melton, Mat Cases, Armour, Quivers, etc.
The point is that when buying anything, art especially, price is irrelevant. If some one is willing to pay X amount of dollars for it, then it's at least that.
In my area Justice cases are worth 350-500 used. There have only ever been a couple JB's out here, and they sold for not much less than their retail price. I can dump something on Ebay and get what I get, or I can sell local, and usually get more. If it's worth $250 on ebay and I can sell local for $350, what's the item worth?
I think we agree for the most part, except that I would NEVER call a Ross tooled Justice a rip off. It's part of billiard history. I would never refer to any item, from any major contributor to the billiard world, a rip off at any price.
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Just to be clear I didn't call the Ross-Justis a ripoff. I said something doesn't add up when you can get a custom saddle fully tooled for $3500 from Ron Ross and a cue case that without tooling costs about $500-$700 with about a tenth of the tooling done by Ross also costs $3500. Everyone has the right to ask for (and get) the prices they dare to ask for. But that doesn't mean that other people can't look at it and break it down.
This is $1500
All high prices do is insure that there is room to come in under them with higher quality, more features, more customizing, etc... only a name cannot be replaced. Once it's earned and entrenched then no matter how much "better" a competitor's product might be it is still not "that" name. It still doesn't carry the prestige that the "name" case has. That's just how we have evolved as a species, to admire what glitters.
You can have this for $3500ish.
All you need is a horse to go under it.
Just to be clear I didn't call the Ross-Justis a ripoff. I said something doesn't add up when you can get a custom saddle fully tooled for $3500 from Ron Ross and a cue case that without tooling costs about $500-$700 with about a tenth of the tooling done by Ross also costs $3500. Everyone has the right to ask for (and get) the prices they dare to ask for. But that doesn't mean that other people can't look at it and break it down.
This is $1500
All high prices do is insure that there is room to come in under them with higher quality, more features, more customizing, etc... only a name cannot be replaced. Once it's earned and entrenched then no matter how much "better" a competitor's product might be it is still not "that" name. It still doesn't carry the prestige that the "name" case has. That's just how we have evolved as a species, to admire what glitters.
You can have this for $3500ish.
All you need is a horse to go under it.
Sorry I was para-phrasing. And that case is a great buy at $1500! Unfortunately I already have my saddle style tooled case. My next one is going to be WAY out there.
Heck I might even try making one, just for fun. My good friends dad, makes sheaths and knives. Has an awesome Tipmann Boss sewing machine for leather. I also have quite a few friend in the upholstery biz to get some pointers from.. Might take a crack, just to see if I can do it. (I'm also getting closer to try out making my first cue.)
Either way, I think we agree John.