Streming Free or PPV?

[Johnnyt]

Before I say anything let me say I bought everyone of the TAR matches and a few other PPV's. I've also donated to most of the free one's I've watched.

I believe in the near future most streams should be free or at very little charge. I also think that if a steamer is not very good at getting advertising dollars there should be a second person that is very good at it. Streamers should make a good living for what they do, I just don't think they should have to have the viewers pay for the bulk of it to make their living. I don't know for sure, but it's my guess is that the PPV's are getting less and less PPV viewers.

I figure if TAR couldn't make it with showing the best players in the world matching up for the cash, no one alone can make it. Mark G. and Justin stated that they weren't great at going out and getting advertising dollars. I don't know if anyone can, but if this doesn't happen soon, streams will slowly go away. JMO. Johnnyt

 

[RBC]

Johnnyt

First of all, I'm sure that all stream providers would love to be able to stream for free. The PPV thing is a huge hassle.

It all comes down to the all mighty dollar. You mentioned that a second person, working as a sales person might help. I don't think the issue is about the sales effort. I just don't think enough people watch the streams to provide what you're looking for.

As an advertiser, there a a couple of ways to look at advertising. One is direct advertising, where you expect to directly generate sales, and the other is branding advertising where you expect to grow and strengthen your brand image. The one thing that is absolutely mandatory for either one to be effective is "butts in seats", or in other words people who will see your ad. How many people do you think watch a stream? There are reports from the streaming sites, but they can be very misleading. For example, the term "unique viewers" doesn't always mean unique individuals. It can be calculated each time the stream is accessed. This means that if the stream gets slow and you refresh it, you are now counted again. So the "unique viewers" number isn't always real. I remember a few years back, one of the streams negotiated to be on the main landing page for ustream. They were in an open window, so each time someone opened the ustream main page, they got a "unique view". Obviously, the vast majority of those people weren't going there to watch pool, and weren't the target audience for pool companies anyway. But, they could say they had hundreds of thousands of unique viewers!

Let's face it. Until pool finds a much bigger audience, streaming and pro pool are going to be a struggle. Just like selling cues! lol


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Johnnyt]

Johnnyt

First of all, I'm sure that all stream providers would love to be able to stream for free. The PPV thing is a huge hassle.

It all comes down to the all mighty dollar. You mentioned that a second person, working as a sales person might help. I don't think the issue is about the sales effort. I just don't think enough people watch the streams to provide what you're looking for.

As an advertiser, there a a couple of ways to look at advertising. One is direct advertising, where you expect to directly generate sales, and the other is branding advertising where you expect to grow and strengthen your brand image. The one thing that is absolutely mandatory for either one to be effective is "butts in seats", or in other words people who will see your ad. How many people do you think watch a stream? There are reports from the streaming sites, but they can be very misleading. For example, the term "unique viewers" doesn't always mean unique individuals. It can be calculated each time the stream is accessed. This means that if the stream gets slow and you refresh it, you are now counted again. So the "unique viewers" number isn't always real. I remember a few years back, one of the streams negotiated to be on the main landing page for ustream. They were in an open window, so each time someone opened the ustream main page, they got a "unique view". Obviously, the vast majority of those people weren't going there to watch pool, and weren't the target audience for pool companies anyway. But, they could say they had hundreds of thousands of unique viewers!

Let's face it. Until pool finds a much bigger audience, streaming and pro pool are going to be a struggle. Just like selling cues! lol


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

I understand what you are saying and it all makes sense. Would you have a ballpark # of real viewers needed to make it cost very little for the PPV? Johnnyt



viewers? Johnnyt

 

[oldzilla]

Struggle is correct.

Do you know that less than 10% of the free stream audience will purchase a PPV ?

Yet alot of the 90% non-buyers will be barging into chatrooms looking to bet hundreds.

Not a very good market either way.

But we all love to see pool played by great players.

Say a prayer for pool !

 

[MSchaffer]

I don't how to do it, or if it is possible, but I always thought the best way to stream is to follow the app store/itunes model of $0.99 content....make the content available for $0.99 per hour. As soon as the payment goes through, you get 60 minutes of streaming, with the option of extending the session with the click of a button.

 

[RBC]

I understand what you are saying and it all makes sense. Would you have a ballpark # of real viewers needed to make it cost very little for the PPV? Johnnyt



viewers? Johnnyt

Johnnyt

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I was relating to how it would take tens of thousands of viewers, or more, to make it really attractive from an advertising standpoint.

When it comes to PPV, that's really all about the cost to put on the stream. Of course, you would need enough $, meaning viewers X PPV Fee, so that the streamer could cover all his costs and still make a reasonable profit. In the case of TAR, they had quite a bit of costs. Monthly rent and utilities on the studio, equipment up keep and purchase, hired help during the streams, the prize fund the players were playing for and their travel expenses, Justin's pay as well as a return on the investment for those who put money into to get it started and keep it going.

So, like I said, it's about volume. You can get $50 from 300 PPV buyers and pay for everything from that. Or you can attract 500,000 viewers and expect some advertisers to pay quite nicely to have exclusive access to them.

The problem I see is that professional pool isn't even interested in garnering the attention of die hard, fanatic, league pool players who have a track record of spending lots of money on all things pool related.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[elvicash]

What value is the stream creating for the advertiser. I think inthe US pool does not create much of a following beyond the avid pool fools like myself and you JohnnyT. To attract a deep pocketed advertiser the first thing they would want is a quantity of streams or events. Next they would want a large adience watching those streams. They would want people watching to be people they want to attract to their products. Now we could get this with pool if we could get all of the league players and bangers aware of pool streams. If they were getting 10k,20k and more concurrent viewers at the same time then we would be on the right track. There should be pool stream shown on the TV's in every bar or pool room during league play. Most players below a certain level do not know the players especially below the top tier Efren, SVB, Busty etc. The same is not true for college basket ball pro ball etc. NASCAR the viewers even know who sponsors who that is very strong.


So I would like free streams I would like to be able to replay the streams later. I would put up with advertising. I have purchased some PPV's over the years. TAR and BigTruck. It is not an easy business these guys have done a great job along with many others. It appears to be a labor of love. I hope it can turn into an industry but without a large viewing population the money will not follow.

Pool needs someone who knows advertising and wants to turn pool into a viable sport. I do not skateboard, I do drink Mt Dew I find myself watching skateboarding online I see the commercials, It works for them. The same could be done with pool, It would require some entity with an advertising budget to commit and somebody with quality pool to be displayed. We need somebody to bring the two together. Pool streaming needs an agent with customers or contacts who has an advertsing budgets. I do not think streaming will work with only pool advertising.

 

[itsfroze]

Johnnyt

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I was relating to how it would take tens of thousands of viewers, or more, to make it really attractive from an advertising standpoint.

When it comes to PPV, that's really all about the cost to put on the stream. Of course, you would need enough $, meaning viewers X PPV Fee, so that the streamer could cover all his costs and still make a reasonable profit. In the case of TAR, they had quite a bit of costs. Monthly rent and utilities on the studio, equipment up keep and purchase, hired help during the streams, the prize fund the players were playing for and their travel expenses, Justin's pay as well as a return on the investment for those who put money into to get it started and keep it going.

So, like I said, it's about volume. You can get $50 from 300 PPV buyers and pay for everything from that. Or you can attract 500,000 viewers and expect some advertisers to pay quite nicely to have exclusive access to them.

The problem I see is that professional pool isn't even interested in garnering the attention of die hard, fanatic, league pool players who have a track record of spending lots of money on all things pool related.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Many a time I would bring my computer to the pool room and split the cost of the stream with the owner of the room. The stream would be on the big screen behind the bar on many a league night and league players would becoming to the bar to order food, or going past to the restrooms or headed to the front desk.

Very seldom if at all ,even on a busy league night would a league player ever stop to watch or even pay any attention. You could have Shane playing Efren and one night the only league player that paid any attention, stopped to watch for thirty seconds and said and I quote,
"What do these guys think that they are good or something".

That's typical for the league player mentality, most of them don't know who the pros are
( boost how they don't care) and I'd say a good majority of them don't like to watch the pro's play on the big screen or even the better players in the room. It forces them to
see just where their game is in reality, and they act offended by that!!!

I remember years ago weaker players would see a strong player come in and start to shot and they would be interested and even try to ask him to show them a couple of things if he would.

Times have completely changed, as now in the same scenario they act like why does this guy have to play here next to us. No one will pay any attention most of the time
and seldom will anyone bother to take enough interest to ask the strong player a question.

When people used to gamble before the leagues caught on. Everyone in the room pretty much new where they stood in the pecking order. Today though a lot (most)
of the league players don't gamble and even sometimes act offended if you ask them
to. They like to walk around saying I'm a six or I'm a seven like it really means a lot.

It bruises the false ego some get from beating up on players that really can't play at all.
They say things like Eight Balls my game no body can beat me at Eight Ball.
Then you say oh really would you like to play some and they act like you just ran over their dog or something.

"What do you think you're good or something" and you reply something like no
I know I'm not that good just giving you a reality check. Putting their feet back down on the ground so to speak and that's what gambling used to do with out all the drama.

Lots of the league players talk as if they are strong players I've even seen them argue
with a much stronger player about how to do something. When that player could run circles around them, it would be comical if it wasn't so sad
I don't know what the solution is, as this is the only sport I can think of where the amateurs aren't interested in the pros..

Everyone is ignorant in certain areas or things,
Ignorant is just not knowing ---------> stupid is not knowing and not wanting to learn.


PS. A perfect example is out in Vegas where there are thousands of league players while the pro tournament is there and they even now are not charging
to watch the pro's and can hardly fill the seats.

 

[RBC]

Many a time I would bring my computer to the pool room and split the cost of the stream with the owner of the room. The stream would be on the big screen behind the bar on many a league night and league players would becoming to the bar to order food, or going past to the restrooms or headed to the front desk.

Very seldom if at all ,even on a busy league night would a league player ever stop to watch or even pay any attention. You could have Shane playing Efren and one night the only league player that paid any attention, stopped to watch for thirty seconds and said and I quote,
"What do these guys think that they are good or something".

That's typical for the league player mentality, most of them don't know who the pros are
( boost how they don't care) and I'd say a good majority of them don't like to watch the pro's play on the big screen or even the better players in the room. It forces them to
see just where their game is in reality, and they act offended by that!!!

I remember years ago weaker players would see a strong player come in and start to shot and they would be interested and even try to ask him to show them a couple of things if he would.

Times have completely changed, as now in the same scenario they act like why does this guy have to play here next to us. No one will pay any attention most of the time
and seldom will anyone bother to take enough interest to ask the strong player a question.

When people used to gamble before the leagues caught on. Everyone in the room pretty much new where they stood in the pecking order. Today though a lot (most)
of the league players don't gamble and even sometimes act offended if you ask them
to. They like to walk around saying I'm a six or I'm a seven like it really means a lot.

It bruises the false ego some get from beating up on players that really can't play at all.
They say things like Eight Balls my game no body can beat me at Eight Ball.
Then you say oh really would you like to play some and they act like you just ran over their dog or something.

"What do you think you're good or something" and you reply something like no
I know I'm not that good just giving you a reality check. Putting their feet back down on the ground so to speak and that's what gambling used to do with out all the drama.

Lots of the league players talk as if they are strong players I've even seen them argue
with a much stronger player about how to do something. When that player could run circles around them, it would be comical if it wasn't so sad
I don't know what the solution is, as this is the only sport I can think of where the amateurs aren't interested in the pros..

Everyone is ignorant in certain areas or things,
Ignorant is just not knowing ---------> stupid is not knowing and not wanting to learn.


PS. A perfect example is out in Vegas where there are thousands of league players while the pro tournament is there and they even now are not charging
to watch the pro's and can hardly fill the seats.

I completely agree!

Now the question is, why do you think that is?

Why don't the league players pay any attention to the streams or pro players?

If you ask those very league players, who sound like APA players, what pro's they know of, what would be the answer? How do they act about those players?

I think what you'd find is that they know about Allison Fisher, Jeanette Lee, and Mike Massey. Maybe Tom Rossman too.

The reason is that these people have put themselves in front of those league players. They have come down to the league players level and earned their respect. They talk to them and help them. They make them laugh and show them crazy shots.

It's just my opinion, but if you want more people to pay attention to top level pool, streams, tourney's, etc. Then you have to earn their attention. You can't just expect that because you are good, they will come worship you. That old saying "if you build a better mouse trap people will beat a path to your door" just isn't true. You have to market that mouse trap. You have to sell that mouse trap. If all you do is build it, and you don't sell it, you won't be very successful, and no one will know about it.

High level pool must sell itself to pool players. Pro pool players must sell themselves to pool players. Only then will the masses become interested.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Nostroke]

Someone once said if you gave an Avid golfer the choice of tens shots off their game or a brand new SUV-Many of them would take the 10 shots.

If you offered a league player instant 2 ball improvement or a case of beer, 98% would take the beer.

They not only dont care about pros, they dont really care about pool or playing better.

Why? beats the hell out of me.

 

[PaulieB]

I don't how to do it, or if it is possible, but I always thought the best way to stream is to follow the app store/itunes model of $0.99 content....make the content available for $0.99 per hour. As soon as the payment goes through, you get 60 minutes of streaming, with the option of extending the session with the click of a button.

Make it 25 cents for 10 minutes, make it feel like a peep show.

 

[bdorman]

The main problem is low audience numbers vs. dollars spent on advertising.

Another problem is that what I've seen on streams can hardly be called advertising. They throw the logo up on the screen and read the sponsor's company name a couple of times during a match. That hardly convinces anyone to buy a product.

Allow each sponsor to run a 30-second commercial -- 3 times during a match. With five sponsors that's an extra 7.5 minutes of match-time...hardly a big intrusion in the viewers' time. If we want free streams we're going to have to put up with a certain amount of ads.

(Lots of players are sponsored by cue manufacturers, but I've never, ever seen or heard a player actually endorse the cue. "I play with a Cue-Tec and you should too!" Same for tips, cloth, tables and on and on. Johnny Archer is the only one that seems to understand that a sponsor needs value for their dollars. He said he uses Championship cloth on all the tables in his pool room and told the viewers why he does.)

But the key is to get the amateur/league players to watch the streams which makes the sponsor's ad dollars more useful.

Get 10,000 viewers (plus downstream re-runs on youtube), provide multiple 30-second ads in which pros actually say good things about a product, and a streamer could make a decent living.

 

[Bigtruck]

The main problem is low audience numbers vs. dollars spent on advertising.

Another problem is that what I've seen on streams can hardly be called advertising. They throw the logo up on the screen and read the sponsor's company name a couple of times during a match. That hardly convinces anyone to buy a product.

Allow each sponsor to run a 30-second commercial -- 3 times during a match. With five sponsors that's an extra 7.5 minutes of match-time...hardly a big intrusion in the viewers' time. If we want free streams we're going to have to put up with a certain amount of ads.

(Lots of players are sponsored by cue manufacturers, but I've never, ever seen or heard a player actually endorse the cue. "I play with a Cue-Tec and you should too!" Same for tips, cloth, tables and on and on. Johnny Archer is the only one that seems to understand that a sponsor needs value for their dollars. He said he uses Championship cloth on all the tables in his pool room and told the viewers why he does.)

But the key is to get the amateur/league players to watch the streams which makes the sponsor's ad dollars more useful.

Get 10,000 viewers (plus downstream re-runs on youtube), provide multiple 30-second ads in which pros actually say good things about a product, and a streamer could make a decent living.

How about get 1 sale from each video? That's how it needs to be tracked. Viewer number are only good if you can say, " I get 1 sale for every 1000 views" etc.

Booths at events get less exposure than one of my shows but at the end of the "booth show" they can say "I sold 100 items". How many did the online show sell? Hard to say.

The main reason the booth show does so good is it cost people money to go there. The people in attendance have money and will buy things.

Make a show worth paying for. Charge admission and track sales.

Advertising for a company should not be a sponsorship, It should be a partnership.

Ray
PoolActionTV 75% free view 25% pay per view

.

 

[itsfroze]

What if a code # was given out on a stream and that way if a stream viewer were to then go to a website and they gave that code number
for say a small discount. Then the streamer and company (well at least company) could track how many people that advertisement attracted.
I guess the streamer would actually have to depend on the honesty of the company as to how many people responded though.

 

[bdorman]

How about get 1 sale from each video? That's how it needs to be tracked. Viewer number are only good if you can say, " I get 1 sale for every 1000 views" etc.

Booths at events get less exposure than one of my shows but at the end of the "booth show" they can say "I sold 100 items". How many did the online show sell? Hard to say.

The main reason the booth show does so good is it cost people money to go there. The people in attendance have money and will buy things.

Make a show worth paying for. Charge admission and track sales.

Advertising for a company should not be a sponsorship, It should be a partnership.

Ray
PoolActionTV 75% free view 25% pay per view

.

Broadcast ads are very difficult to track. I think you'd have more luck selling the ads as "brand awareness" than "direct response" because brand awareness is what really pays off big over time (e.g. online billiard supplies store: what's more valuable -- making one sale today, or being "top of mind" among 10,000 potential customers? "Top of mind" didn't make one sale today, but it will make hundreds over the next year).

But to make brand awareness work you have to have large numbers of viewers...and the seller has to have a good ad (whole 'nother problem).

 

[itsfroze]

I completely agree!

Now the question is, why do you think that is?

Why don't the league players pay any attention to the streams or pro players?

If you ask those very league players, who sound like APA players, what pro's they know of, what would be the answer? How do they act about those players?

I think what you'd find is that they know about Allison Fisher, Jeanette Lee, and Mike Massey. Maybe Tom Rossman too.

The reason is that these people have put themselves in front of those league players. They have come down to the league players level and earned their respect. They talk to them and help them. They make them laugh and show them crazy shots.

It's just my opinion, but if you want more people to pay attention to top level pool, streams, tourney's, etc. Then you have to earn their attention. You can't just expect that because you are good, they will come worship you. That old saying "if you build a better mouse trap people will beat a path to your door" just isn't true. You have to market that mouse trap. You have to sell that mouse trap. If all you do is build it, and you don't sell it, you won't be very successful, and no one will know about it.

High level pool must sell itself to pool players. Pro pool players must sell themselves to pool players. Only then will the masses become interested.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

---------------------------



I think maybe for the league players to get to know the pros it would be a good thing say in the APA to give out free PPV's to certain events or maybe free passes to video on demand of certain tournaments to try and generate some interest and excitement with in the leagues and league players this way.

Maybe even a small discount for the pro player on the entry fee, or even have certain tournaments where it is mandatory that the pro player has do 3 or 5 or whatever amount of meet and greet and exhibition, or question and answer type seminars with the leagues to even be allowed to play in the tournament on top of the paid entry fee.

This would be like a snow ball rolling down a hill effect after a while especially when you have a bunch of pros doing it. But if the pros do this it will only help spark new interest in the leagues and the league owners should kick some money into the pro tournaments after a while, or at least help with the expenses of the pros doing this as it benefits their leagues as well.

You could even have some type of pro-am tournaments, they have big pro-am tournaments in bowling before the start of the pro tournament. Where the amateurs are paired with different pros and the amateurs score paired with the pros score determines the winner of the event.

This gives the amateurs a reason to root for the pros and hopefully that bond carries over into the pro tournaments and all of a sudden you have fans. Of coarse they'd have to figure out some type of event and scoring system where this would work.

Just some ideas I know that Mark (CSI) is going to be doing something in the Invitationals where each pro has to work with the amateurs for a t least an hour. I think that is a great idea to generate interest and start to create that fan player bond a sport needs to create fans.

 

[PINKLADY]

the poor PPV stats, sounds like a software issue, which should be corrected.

i've taken some polls in the past 8 months, in Greensboro, Atlanta, & Vegas:

- none of the halls stream ANY pool matches; PPV or free (while i could watch 5 various golf/football games simultaneously)

- <10% of the players/people (whether recreational or league), could name the "pros". Earl was #1. Jeanette was #2. Johnny was #3. (remember, this is the South)

my assessment, albeit painful, is: they don't care. they are too busy PLAYING, to be WATCHING or POSTING. they are LIVING pool.

they don't know the history of the Players. their dirt. their accolades. the drama. nothing to make it interesting. yet they have $50+/+ to drop daily @ their hall. and i was one of them - till 2 yrs ago, Mosconi & KK9 filled me in on WHO'S WHO. hell, we hopped a plane! and i was hooked....after 25 yrs of playing & only knowing Earl - but not WHO/WHAT he was.

as for the PPV & costs, i'm going to say it again: times are tough. and when you can wait 1 day & YouTube it @ FREE, then....

as for the vendors advertising @ PPVs/streams, remember that all it takes is 1 hit. regardless of how your consumer viewed it. you're still onsite, advertising.

 

[itsfroze]

If there's a room that has league four nights a week, you could just set up an event on a Saturday that all the different nights league players are invited to attend.

Also most of the league operators who run in house tournaments for the leagues that are held in pool rooms, where a whole bunch of league players show up at one time.
This would be a good time to set up and run something with one or two of the pros some how around the tournament. Before or after whatever makes more sense
probably before the finals would be a good time.

This would also help keep league players there, as spectators for the finals. How many times have you seen the two teams that finally get to the finals and no one is
even there to cheer because everyone has left.

This even happens at Turning Stone for the Joss Tour finals, the two guys that have fought for days to get there and basically the place is emptier than it's been all week
certainly not the excitement one would like to see for a finals! "Emptier than a bankers Heart"

 

[bdorman]

Just a quick note about advertising on streams:

The top five Derby City Classic 2013 videos on youtube.com have generated more than 161,000 views. That's just the top five videos out of dozens -- total views of all DCC2013 videos is probably more than 250,000. Those are some serious numbers.

The "most viewed" video (Eberle vs Orcullo, 14.1 Final) had 46,000+ views...and not one advertisement. Simonis "sponsored" the stream but I don't think Simonis was even mentioned during the 2+ hours.

---------

Regarding having the pros out among the public selling pool: absolutely necessary. But the pro has to have the personality for it, and sadly, most don't. Those who do have been able to extend their careers (e.g. Janette Lee, Mike Massey, etc.) but current pros don't think about the future. (BTW, that's not a criticism of them; most people focus on today and don't think much about tomorrow. It's just human nature.)

 

[PINKLADY]

If there's a room that has league four nights a week, you could just set up an event on a Saturday that all the different nights league players are invited to attend.....

we tried this @ Greensboro. Johnny. Gene. Lee.
granted, our 10% showed.
but the other 90% - and the hall was packed each time w/ League or tourney & me running around talking w/ all about: GUESS WHO'S OVER THERE?!?! -

they didn't care.

we did, however, (RBC), sell a lot of $5 raffle tickets for a free cue!