Did The JB vs Lou Match Settle The Great Aiming Debate Once & For All?

JB Cases said:
It's not a bad game.
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Best case scenario would have been a 2 game spot. In which case, you still would have lost. I cant see how you still think its still a good game. Its not as if Lou played over his head. But hey, its your money. And you are entitled to your opinion, of course. Not trying to knock you John, just calling it as I see it.

If anything, you should be able to set the terms for a rematch, with your game of choice. Nothing personal here, but if you pushed for another 1 pocket game I would only shake my head in disbelief.
 
pt109 said:
I doubt anyone is that naive.
How about a system player like Stevie Moore versus Alex Pagulayan?
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Aiming systems are not about one player against another, if they were all we would have to do is watch Landon's match against Earl. Would the match result be the same every time they played, no. It's really about a particular person using something that is available to them to help them play as good as they can.
As a pro-one user it has helped make my game better and much much much more consistent.
 
Roger Long said:
As has been said, the Lou-vs-John match proved nothing as far as CTE aiming goes. It didn't prove that CTE works, and it didn't prove that it doesn't. There may never be a match that will prove, or disprove, CTE because it's not the kind of thing that can be easily done.

The 10K match was interesting; but from an entertainment standpoint, only. In my opinion, what would make a better match for comparison's sake would be a 14.1 match between Lou and Stan. Both men are very experienced in 14.1, and 14.1 is a game where there is a greater number of cut shots, which would give a little clearer picture of the aiming consistency achieved by each man.

Would there be any interest from Lou and Stan in putting a match like that together?

Roger
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Roger;

Please remind me, how did Stan do this past US Open?

you sly game maker, you. :thumbup:

best,
brian kc
 
Aiming systems are a joke. If anything, it helps with the underlying cause of losing mental focus. Having a PSR and a system makes you focus every single shot, instead of the get down grip & rip style.
 
JB Cases said:
It's not a bad game.
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Sounds like you are ready for a rematch. I think you should play him again soon before he gets away. You were only 3 or 4 shots from winning the match and the next day you did so well in that tournament. I think next time you won't be nervous and you can drill him :thumbup:
 
Bambu said:
Best case scenario would have been a 2 game spot. In which case, you still would have lost. I cant see how you still think its still a good game. Its not as if Lou played over his head. But hey, its your money. And you are entitled to your opinion, of course. Not trying to knock you John, just calling it as I see it.

If anything, you should be able to set the terms for a rematch, with your game of choice. Nothing personal here, but if you pushed for another 1 pocket game I would only shake my head in disbelief.
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If you want to be part of a rematch with me getting a two game spot then I will glad to entertain that when I am ready to discuss a rematch with Lou.

Thanks for your analysis.

Happy to have given you something to talk about and I hope that the rematch - if there is one - provides you with even more to analyze and talk about.
 
Bambu said:
Best case scenario would have been a 2 game spot. In which case, you still would have lost. I cant see how you still think its still a good game. Its not as if Lou played over his head. But hey, its your money. And you are entitled to your opinion, of course. Not trying to knock you John, just calling it as I see it.

If anything, you should be able to set the terms for a rematch, with your game of choice. Nothing personal here, but if you pushed for another 1 pocket game I would only shake my head in disbelief.
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Not necessarily- in fact the pressure on Lou and the lack of it on JB due to the spot, especially early on-im pretty sure JB would have taken it.
 
This is a very true statement. I spot local players here 3 on 7 in league play and sometime 4 on 9 (to triple A players) in tournaments.

Sometimes they win and I have heard the spot didn't matter. Lol - there is a huge impact because a player spotting 4 on 9 needs to win 9-4 to cover. Therefore they typically have to change to a more conservative game plan because an early loss is huge.

I always hear this from the guys getting the games - not the guys giving them.

Gerry

Nostroke said:
Not necessarily- in fact the pressure on Lou and the lack of it on JB due to the spot, especially early on-im pretty sure JB would have taken it.
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Nostroke said:
Not necessarily- in fact the pressure on Lou and the lack of it on JB due to the spot, especially early on-im pretty sure JB would have taken it.
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I don't know if that guy has gambled before .
A 2-spot before the match even starts is HUUUUGE unless the other is really much better and can deal with pressure.
You can't go by the final score of the last match and just assume Lou would have won hill-hill.
 
JB Cases said:
Where I have a problem as I explained to Lou at the end is in actively trying to stop people from learning them. And it's my perception that continually interrupting conversations about them to voice your opinion that the methods are useless IS actively trying to prevent others from using them. Now, in fairness Lou said he should be allowed to express his opinion.
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It is fair as long as he also makes note that he has absolutely zero knowledge of the system and has spent zero time at the table trying it. People in Europe thought the world was flat until Christopher Columbus proved them wrong.

If Lou or anyone else get's passed on the highway by 20 members of the Hell's Angels and he think to himself "What a bunch of low life douche bags those are", do you think he pulls over when he sees them stopped at a gas station and expresses that opinion to them?

There's a huge difference between expressing your opinion and continuously dogging someone (or something, such as an aiming system). If Lou is so adamant about CTE/Pro One not working, he should be willing to post $10,000 of his own money in a match against Stevie Moore, Landon or Stan Shuffett. That point proves this match wasn't about aiming systems, it was about a personal grudge between Lou and John. Lou agreed because he knew he had the better of it in the gamble, not because he believed CTE/Pro One had no merit whatsoever.
 
nobcitypool said:
If Lou is so adamant about CTE/Pro One not working, he should be willing to post $10,000 of his own money in a match against Stevie Moore, Landon or Stan Shuffett. That point proves this match wasn't about aiming systems, it was about a personal grudge between Lou and John. Lou agreed because he knew he had the better of it in the gamble, not because he believed CTE/Pro One had no merit whatsoever.
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Devils Advocate:
We all saw Lou play. Do you really think a fair match would be him against any of those 3? IMO, a fair match would be him against someone like Spidey(Dave). Dave is not a professional caliber player but is a GOOD player who uses a system.
 
Nostroke said:
Not necessarily- in fact the pressure on Lou and the lack of it on JB due to the spot, especially early on-im pretty sure JB would have taken it.
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That's true Nostroke, cant argue that. I was just looking at the numbers to make a point. Anything to take Lou out of his comfort zone could have changed the outcome.
 
JB Cases said:
If you want to be part of a rematch with me getting a two game spot then I will glad to entertain that when I am ready to discuss a rematch with Lou.

Thanks for your analysis.

Happy to have given you something to talk about and I hope that the rematch - if there is one - provides you with even more to analyze and talk about.
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Thanks John, I did enjoy the match. I think I'd rather see you play him even, just with your game of choice.
 
Roger Long said:
As has been said, the Lou-vs-John match proved nothing as far as CTE aiming goes. It didn't prove that CTE works, and it didn't prove that it doesn't. There may never be a match that will prove, or disprove, CTE because it's not the kind of thing that can be easily done.
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I haven't found any aiming system that ever helped me much, and I don't have any dogs in this fight.

I turned on the beginning of this match and it looked awful. I'm not a one-pocket fan, but by the way John was shooting it looked like he was going to get smoked and I don't got time to watch hours and hours of one hole, even for that much cash.

However, I was at Steinway the following day and watched JB play in the Wednesday night open 9B tournament. To my surprise, he played well and defeated several strong local players, including an A+/borderline Open speed player (albeit in a short race, but strong nevertheless). His only losses were to Earl on the winner's side and Earl again on the loser's side. John held his own against him and didn't get blown out either.

Yes, he has flaws in his game, as we all do. Yes, his stroke tends to steer like someone driving down San Francisco's Lombard Street at times. But from what I saw, he can make balls and was able to make many good, competent outs - whatever system he subscribes to, it clearly was working for him. He's not some glorified C player who touts a holy grail aiming panacea; he's a player.

I also hear he makes a decent case, so bully for him.
 
JB Cases said:
Not religion. Aiming System = Tool. You can get the job done without the tool but if you have it and like it then use it.

Religion is believing in something you can't prove and it's been an unfair accusation and the root of all this.

An aiming system is a method of looking at the balls to align your eyes and body to the shot. That's all they ever were and all that they are. They are knowledge that can be taught and passed on like I can hand you a tool. You can use that tool and pass it on or let lay in the box never to be used or spoken of again, your choice.

But to say it's religion is wrong.
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JB I was saying its like religion in that it works for some people and not for others. I understand that its a tool, just like religion is a tool some people need to help them get through life. And that's all good!!

You could almost compare the two in that they debates are similar.
 
Curious as to who was Lou's last minute backer, I mean not everyone wants to bump a bet 15 grand at the last minute.
 
poolhustler said:
JB I was saying its like religion in that it works for some people and not for others. I understand that its a tool, just like religion is a tool some people need to help them get through life. And that's all good!!

You could almost compare the two in that they debates are similar.
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He sure didn't feel that way with the imaginary ghost ball.
 
What was proven is that even with 100s of hours of practice and play with CTE it was not enough to overcome the skill differance of a player that's not that much better


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