perfect stroke vs table reading

mvp

mvp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ive heard alot about indifferent strokes and side arms etc. and most people say; well,,,, its unique to them. [pro players] so my question is does it matter more on how you read the table like position routes in 9-ball and ball selection in 8-ball? you think its 50% each or what?

the reason I ask, im in my mid 40's and i feel i could benefit more on postion play than stroke,
 
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I am not an instructor but if your stroke is faulty and you cannot hit the cue ball consistently you will not be consistent in your position play just my opinion
 
bbb said:
I am not an instructor but if your stroke is faulty and you cannot hit the cue ball consistently you will not be consistent in your position play just my opinion
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I been playing for 35 yrs, consider myself to have a consistent stroke. im a GOOD player but not a A player my old apa days i was a sl7. Im curious to why there isnt much instruction on table layouts etc. I think its 50/50 stroke vs table smarts. but it doesnt seem to be taught by instructors as much, I think the ability to make correct shots for easier position is equally important. I have every major book that covers this stuff] So
who would have the best info on how to open up 8-ball racks for more consistent table runs?
 
mvp said:
Ive heard alot about indifferent strokes and side arms etc. and most people say; well,,,, its unique to them. [pro players] so my question is does it matter more on how you read the table like position routes in 9-ball and ball selection in 8-ball? you think its 50% each or what?

the reason I ask, im in my mid 40's and i feel i could benefit more on postion play than stroke,
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What do you think would benefit you more if you were in your 20's?
 
mvp said:
I been playing for 35 yrs, consider myself to have a consistent stroke. im a GOOD player but not a A player my old apa days i was a sl7. Im curious to why there isnt much instruction on table layouts etc. I think its 50/50 stroke vs table smarts. but it doesnt seem to be taught by instructors as much, I think the ability to make correct shots for easier position is equally important. I have every major book that covers this stuff] So
who would have the best info on how to open up 8-ball racks for more consistent table runs?
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Any of Capelle's books (Play Your Best 8 Ball, etc.) are excellent references for the thinking side of pool games.

I've found that some instructors do focus on the strategy aspects if that's what you are looking for. It's just my observation that the reason instruction is centered more on the mechanics side is a) that's what most players are asking for help with, and b) improving one's mechanics often benefit from a 2nd set of eyes that are trained in what to look for.

A couple of years ago I met with Dave Hemmah for a lesson. First thing he said to me was "Are you here to improve your mechanics or to learn how to play 9 Ball?"

When I work with John Schmidt on straight pool it is almost exclusively on the nuances of the game and not on mechanics. Just in case it wasn't clear - when I referred to "working with him", he's the teacher and I'm the student. ;):grin:
 
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mvp said:
I been playing for 35 yrs, consider myself to have a consistent stroke. im a GOOD player but not a A player my old apa days i was a sl7. Im curious to why there isnt much instruction on table layouts etc. I think its 50/50 stroke vs table smarts. but it doesnt seem to be taught by instructors as much, I think the ability to make correct shots for easier position is equally important. I have every major book that covers this stuff] So
who would have the best info on how to open up 8-ball racks for more consistent table runs?
Click to expand...

I just finished in playing in a 5 man 8 ball tournament, limited to one A player per team. (I was the A player on our team). I can't tell you how many times I heard players on both teams congratulate me on a monster out, except for their A player, who just said "nice out". The difference between the two sayings is your problem.

The A player recognized that all I did is stay in line. Then made the balls to where they were open to. If I needed to break out a ball, I controlled the break out. The lower level players just flat out don't have a good enough stroke to stay in line. So, they are always shooting something tough, or having to play a safe that they can't perform correctly because they can't control the cb. They can't control the cb precisely because, again, they don't have a stroke. Almost all of them at APA 7 and below have a poke, not a stroke.

They think there is no difference between my stroke and theirs, yet when they need to perform a simple draw-drag shot to hold the cb, they can't begin to do it.

Stroke and accuracy come first. Then worry about advanced position play. You can study that cart (position play) all you want to, but until you put the horse (stroke) in front of it, you aren't going to get anywhere. Even knowing exactly what to do, is worthless without the ability to do it correctly.

Now, if you still want to put the cart before the horse, go get George Fels "Mastering Pool", and study the 14.1 section, then study the 8 ball section. But, again, if you can't put the cb where you want to pretty precisely, ( which is a result of your stroke), patterns are essentially meaningless because you will have to make a new pattern after each shot.
 
mvp said:
Ive heard alot about indifferent strokes and side arms etc. and most people say; well,,,, its unique to them. [pro players] so my question is does it matter more on how you read the table like position routes in 9-ball and ball selection in 8-ball? you think its 50% each or what?

the reason I ask, im in my mid 40's and i feel i could benefit more on postion play than stroke,
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Your stroke is the cause of your position.

randyg
 
As Dogs Playing Pool mentioned, we do work with students on patterns, position play, and better decision making...AFTER we're satisfied that the student has solid fundamentals. I have yet to meet a student who didn't think their stroke was better than it actually was. Once they saw themselves, in slow motion video analysis, they better understood why their patterns and position play were not up to their satisfaction. I'm working with a student right now on Sanibel Island FL to develop better decision making processes. He's already done the work to create a great repeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
my stroke is far from text book perfect! but its fairly constant. I make almost all the balls when i shoot practice, which that tells me im running my racks the hard way, wrong ball first, overlooking simple solutions ect. so now my question to the stroke instructors are: after having a certain stroke for 35 years and Ive recently done a 2000 ball stroke drill recommended by tor lowery on a you tube vid. even if i could see the flaws on video how hard is it to correct after all that time? Earlier thats why i posted my age, at age 20 your stroke would not be in your permanent muscle memory yet but after 30-40 yrs is it just too hard to change? And do you guys think tors stroke drill works? 2000 balls hit with correct follow through,
 
I personally have seen guys who have played for 50 years fix problems in their strokes successfully. Part of it is about having an open mind. If you think you cannot change, you are right. We believe in quality over quantity. Doing something 2000 times is, imo, a waste of time and energy. Doing something 20 times correctly, twice a day, is a far more efficient way to ingrain any changes in your process.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

mvp said:
my stroke is far from text book perfect! but its fairly constant. I make almost all the balls when i shoot practice, which that tells me im running my racks the hard way, wrong ball first, overlooking simple solutions ect. so now my question to the stroke instructors are: after having a certain stroke for 35 years and Ive recently done a 2000 ball stroke drill recommended by tor lowery on a you tube vid. even if i could see the flaws on video how hard is it to correct after all that time? Earlier thats why i posted my age, at age 20 your stroke would not be in your permanent muscle memory yet but after 30-40 yrs is it just too hard to change? And do you guys think tors stroke drill works? 2000 balls hit with correct follow through,
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mvp said:
my stroke is far from text book perfect! but its fairly constant. I make almost all the balls when i shoot practice, which that tells me im running my racks the hard way, wrong ball first, overlooking simple solutions ect. so now my question to the stroke instructors are: after having a certain stroke for 35 years and Ive recently done a 2000 ball stroke drill recommended by tor lowery on a you tube vid. even if i could see the flaws on video how hard is it to correct after all that time? Earlier thats why i posted my age, at age 20 your stroke would not be in your permanent muscle memory yet but after 30-40 yrs is it just too hard to change?

And do you guys think tors stroke drill works? 2000 balls hit with correct follow through,
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NO!
randyg
 
Scott Lee said:
I personally have seen guys who have played for 50 years fix problems in their strokes successfully. Part of it is about having an open mind. If you think you cannot change, you are right. We believe in quality over quantity. Doing something 2000 times is, imo, a waste of time and energy. Doing something 20 times correctly, twice a day, is a far more efficient way to ingrain any changes in your process.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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In other words, practice doesn't make perfect...it only makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. ;)
 
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I'll be 60 in July. Started playing in 1974. Changed my stroke in the last 6 months. Took some work, but was able to do it. And, did it for the betterment of my game.
 
Fundamentals

I've seen players that know tons of patterns and such, but can't finish run outs due to poor consistency.

I've seen other players with really good fundamentals but not be able to run out due to lack of experience and knowledge.

As an instructor I would say the fundamentals are the key to it all. I believe the 2nd example I gave will be able to have a quicker learning curve and progress faster with the fundamentally sound game. The first example will have to relearn fundamentals, change parts of their game, and probably go through a transition period where they play worse for a while before getting better.

A consistent stroke will give you reliable/consistent results of what the cue ball will do. Now you may be able to play shape/position without a consistent stroke, but it can be hard to determine what got you to the position you played to (speed, spin..) and next time you might get completely different results.
 
Neil said:
I just finished in playing in a 5 man 8 ball tournament, limited to one A player per team. (I was the A player on our team). I can't tell you how many times I heard players on both teams congratulate me on a monster out, except for their A player, who just said "nice out". The difference between the two sayings is your problem.

The A player recognized that all I did is stay in line. Then made the balls to where they were open to. If I needed to break out a ball, I controlled the break out. The lower level players just flat out don't have a good enough stroke to stay in line. So, they are always shooting something tough, or having to play a safe that they can't perform correctly because they can't control the cb. They can't control the cb precisely because, again, they don't have a stroke. Almost all of them at APA 7 and below have a poke, not a stroke.

They think there is no difference between my stroke and theirs, yet when they need to perform a simple draw-drag shot to hold the cb, they can't begin to do it.

Stroke and accuracy come first. Then worry about advanced position play. You can study that cart (position play) all you want to, but until you put the horse (stroke) in front of it, you aren't going to get anywhere. Even knowing exactly what to do, is worthless without the ability to do it correctly.
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Excellent post, Neil. I notice this a lot as well, especially in my own teaching. Most of the APA 4 - 7 range - and even more than a few of the 8's and 9's - can't consistently get from ball to ball, even if they are told how to play position. Their stroke and speed control just doesn't allow them to get there, or when using spin they use too much or just don't understand how to compensate.

For the 8's and 9's, it's usually a matter of not knowing what to do, hitting too hard, making things too complex, etc., these are the players I love to work with. For the intermediate players, they may need tweaking of their fundamentals as well as repetition through drills and practice play to learn those standard routes and shots that come up all the time. Consistency is the name of the game.

Scott
 
Both aspects are equally important.

If you have a consistent stroke but can't play position then your game is just as faulty as if you don't have a consistent stroke but know how to get to the next position.

If your stroke isn't consistent though, it won't matter if you can read the table, because you won't have the stroke required to put the correct English, speed, or OB contact to make it to the next position.

As with any other skill, it's best to start with the fundamentals then get into the little nuances of the skill. =P

-Richard
 
i was a apa 7 and a 8 in 9ball,,, I can make shots, so im guessing my stroke is fine. Which led me to believe its my routes and postion. So you guys think i should revisit my stroke? I have a hd gopro camera [my daughters] this should be good enough for me to see whats goin on, could you please list a few problems i should look out for? Again im a decent player, played alot of nationals ect. just looking to go from a b to an b+ or A-
 
mvp said:
i was a apa 7 and a 8 in 9ball,,, I can make shots, so im guessing my stroke is fine. Which led me to believe its my routes and postion. So you guys think i should revisit my stroke? I have a hd gopro camera [my daughters] this should be good enough for me to see whats goin on, could you please list a few problems i should look out for? Again im a decent player, played alot of nationals ect. just looking to go from a b to an b+ or A-
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By stroke, we don't just mean going straight. We also mean hitting the cb precisely where you want to hit it. For example- you determine that for the position required, you want one tip of right follow on the cb. You make the shot, and observe where the cb goes, and put that in your memory bank for future use.

What you didn't realize, is that although you wanted to hit the cb at 1 o'clock, you actually hit the cb at 2 o'clock. So, you put the 2 o'clock results into your 1 o'clock memory bank. Later, you want to use a 2 o'clock hit to get a little more spin off the rail. You are very careful where you hit the cb, and do hit it at 2 o'clock like you intended to.

However, your results are exactly the same as your 1 o'clock hit. Now next time you want a 2 o'clock hit, you remember it wasn't enough, so you go out farther to 3 o'clock. You observe the results of that, and it is way too much spin. Now, you have nothing to base your observations on that you can duplicate.

Pattern play is all based on position play. Position play is all based off of the tangent line from a stun shot hit, or the 30 degree rule off a follow shot. To have a pattern means that you have to be able to follow your position routes. To follow your position routes you have to be able to repeatedly hit the cb where you intend to hit it. To hit the cb where you intend to hit it, you need a reliable stroke, not just a fairly straight stroke. A fairly straight stroke can still pocket the ball due to the margin of error with the pocket. To play position correctly, you can have much less margin of error on where you hit the cb.

edit: You also want to make sure that you are actually hitting the cb at the speed you want to. That means not decelerating before you strike the cb. The best way to do that is to not try and hit the cb, but try and shoot right through the cb like it wasn't even there. Many B's seem to struggle in this area.
 
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If you want to see what your doing just video yourself from the front, side and back as I did, if your happy with what you are seeing.......cool, but if you see flaws with stance and cue delivery you might want to make adjustments.

I did a video of myself in those positions and all I could say was.....holy crap. Even though I was sure I was lined up correctly and delivering the cue in a straight line (not)

So now I have some work to do, been working on my issues for the last month and am progressing.

Video your self and check it out. :smile:

Have Fun

John
 
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