Some guys just have great strokes. They move the cue around effortlessly. Draw shots with little effort. Not all players have the same results even though we apparently are stroking the same way. There is even a separation amongst pros. It kinda like boxers. Two guys are the same weight and size but one just has knock out power. Even though both boxers look to be punching the same. What separates a great stroke from a good stroke? It's not a power thing. Is it their grip, bridge? Could it have something to do with where their grip hand is at when the cue ball is struck?
Great stroke
- Thread starter jburkm002
- Start date
Timing and muscle coordination.
Care to explain a little more?
Timing-is that the backhand position when the tip makes contact with the cue ball. If so what is the best backhand position at contact? I have always heard that when setting up. Your back arm should be straight facing the floor. So when that is set up, your down on your shot but the tip may be a couple inches away from the cue ball. Is that something one should adjust for? Otherwise your backhand would be forward when the cue ball is struck. Is the best contact point where you forearm is vertically straight at contact? Sorry if its confusing. One of those morning where I cant put thoughts to words.
This will prob end up like a aiming thread
My 2¢ smooth acceleration through an accurate hit on the cb.In the case of draw,aimimg low on the cb and hitting low! Less skillful players aim low but
their subconcious takes over-says that is too low,and a higher hit/less draw
is the result.
My 2¢ smooth acceleration through an accurate hit on the cb.In the case of draw,aimimg low on the cb and hitting low! Less skillful players aim low but
their subconcious takes over-says that is too low,and a higher hit/less draw
is the result.
It really does not matter how you grip, or hold cue or shaft as long as your warm up long strokes are 100% straight (parallel to line of aim) before you shoot the CB
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IMO, like said above, timing is the key, BUT, how do you "timing" the shot 
nice grammar huh?
Seriously, there are a ton of ways or styles of play that will work, but the moment of contact tip to CB and the dynamic of if the tip is accelerating or not is my point. Watch Bustamante, Deuel, SVB, in slowmo and you will see a lag on the forward stroke between the elbow and wrist, then a very smooth "snap" of the wrist to deliver the cue. This is effortless reserves of power IMO. Corey can REALLY deliver the cue beautifully when he wants to.
This is very much like golf....some players have effortless power (see Fred Couples) others look like they are hitting it a mile, but can't (don't watch Charles Barkley)
I like to think of a bullwhip. Your hand is moving slow, but the end of that whip is hauling azz!
G.
nice grammar huh?Seriously, there are a ton of ways or styles of play that will work, but the moment of contact tip to CB and the dynamic of if the tip is accelerating or not is my point. Watch Bustamante, Deuel, SVB, in slowmo and you will see a lag on the forward stroke between the elbow and wrist, then a very smooth "snap" of the wrist to deliver the cue. This is effortless reserves of power IMO. Corey can REALLY deliver the cue beautifully when he wants to.
This is very much like golf....some players have effortless power (see Fred Couples) others look like they are hitting it a mile, but can't (don't watch Charles Barkley)
I like to think of a bullwhip. Your hand is moving slow, but the end of that whip is hauling azz!
G.
I agree with Masayoshi, timing and muscle coordination play a huge part in a great stroke. I believe the differences are very very subtle between various good players. I also believe this is why being a great player doesn't necessarily equate to being a great teacher.
Some great players can't convey what they do cause they don't know. And probably won't fit others make up anyway. So, unfortunately, I also believe that great teachers may not be able to teach these micro timing differences that mean so much. Not only because it is a difficult thing to convey, but even more unfortunate, it probably isn't the same for each individual, and there is no way for an instructor to dissect our DNA to figure us out individually.
I think any instructor will agree that beyond the basics and intermediary levels, things get tougher and tougher to fine tune.
Eye timing, quiet eye, focus on the shot, living in the moment, envisioning the shot in different ways all play into this along with muscle coordination.
Confidence in the outcome of the shot allows a more relaxed stroke also.
Anyone who has progressed beyond a B- player, knows that learning comes in much smaller chunks, "ahha" moments trickle in far less frequently, and when those moments do arise, they usually are so amazingly subtle in nature that they offer a glimpse into the next phase so long as we are open to seeing it.
IMO, playing great pool requires hundreds of these little subtle things to be present all at the right time and for a long enough extended time for our minds to absorb them.
(This is one reason I'm such an advocate of straight pool. It is the only game that offers long contiguous time periods of deep focus at the table. These extended time frames of play are "the mental practice" of the game. Practicing this is every bit as important as the physical aspect of the stroke. Repeatedly smacking around 9 balls will allow focus and concentration, but nowhere near the experience 14.1 offers in terms of duration of the experience to help it sink in to our brains and get comfortable with the feeling of "in the moment focus" so we can call on it at will.)
Anyway, back to the stroke, if only one of the many factors that make up the experience of pocketing a ball and playing good position are not perfect, the stroke suffers.
My particular problem, (or should I say, the one I'm most aware of) is keeping that quiet eye. My struggle is the timing of the shot with the comfort of my mind and eye happy on the OB while total focus is in the moment. If I ever cure that, I'm sure that little "ahha" moment will open the door to the next issue I was unaware of.
Not to mention each revelation has the potential to regress your improvement while all the ducks get back in a row, assuming of course that one improvement doesn't require another factors total rebuild. Given enough practice, study, experimenting, some players stumble on the formula, some lucked into it automatically, and some of us just continue to play OK while in search of it.
This is why we love the game I suppose, never a dull moment in the noodle. :thumbup:
Check out Corey Deuel's stroke in this 43-second clip. He shoots two shots during the clip. The superstroked one is the second one (the radically arc-ing snap draw off the long rail, employing an ultra-long follow though). This lad can really juice the CB. Commentator "Cardone" who's been around the game forever, is stunned into amazement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVDrZK6VpuU
Notice that Corey's tip returns within a split millimeter to exactly the same point on the CB during his several long rehearsal strokes and his delivery stroke and this of course is a prime characteristic of pro-level players. Long term, good things can't *reliably* and consistently happen for them without that kind of precision.
Arnaldo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVDrZK6VpuU
Notice that Corey's tip returns within a split millimeter to exactly the same point on the CB during his several long rehearsal strokes and his delivery stroke and this of course is a prime characteristic of pro-level players. Long term, good things can't *reliably* and consistently happen for them without that kind of precision.
Arnaldo
For me, hitting a cue-ball in a powerful manner is akin to driving a par-four
green or knocking a boxer out......the power comes from your feet.
If you hit with your upper body only, it is always weaker.
Ben Hogan said "You hit a golf ball from your toe nails."
green or knocking a boxer out......the power comes from your feet.
If you hit with your upper body only, it is always weaker.
Ben Hogan said "You hit a golf ball from your toe nails."
Follow through.
ehhh.wrong answer...
You're kinda right but wrong at the same time.
I challenge ANYONE to have a straight ACCELERATING stroke without a nice straight follow through at least 4 inches long. It just isn't possible.
So yes, what matters is what happens from the final backswing to the point of impact, but what follows is what allows a person to know if they're doing it right.
Jaden
p.s. making the ball does NOT mean that you are doing it right.
You're kinda right but wrong at the same time.
I challenge ANYONE to have a straight ACCELERATING stroke without a nice straight follow through at least 4 inches long. It just isn't possible.
So yes, what matters is what happens from the final backswing to the point of impact, but what follows is what allows a person to know if they're doing it right.
Jaden
p.s. making the ball does NOT mean that you are doing it right.
You've brought up an excellent thread! I really like it.
I know exactly what you're saying - when you look at two people play even if they make the same moves on the table something in their stroke seems different - I think it's effort.
In PUA something exists called the law of least effort - and it basically states that the person who attains the most while putting forth the least effort is the most dominant.
So, when a player looks like he's consciously handling his stroke to be smooth it's great - but when a player has laser focus on what he's doing on the table while letting his body simply perform the stroke it's done thousands and thousands of times then it looks great but effortless.
A good stroke comes with conscious effort and focus on the stroke while a great stroke comes from just letting your body do what it does naturally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw
In the video - Efren doesn't seem to be focusing on his stroke but instead on the table and what's going to happen next.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEL-90mreNg
While the guy starting from 2:05 - when he shoots you see him adjust his stroke ever so slightly. He gets the action he wants but has to think about what to do to do it - Efren simply strokes.
Just my opinion though ,
-Richard
I know exactly what you're saying - when you look at two people play even if they make the same moves on the table something in their stroke seems different - I think it's effort.
In PUA something exists called the law of least effort - and it basically states that the person who attains the most while putting forth the least effort is the most dominant.
So, when a player looks like he's consciously handling his stroke to be smooth it's great - but when a player has laser focus on what he's doing on the table while letting his body simply perform the stroke it's done thousands and thousands of times then it looks great but effortless.
A good stroke comes with conscious effort and focus on the stroke while a great stroke comes from just letting your body do what it does naturally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw
In the video - Efren doesn't seem to be focusing on his stroke but instead on the table and what's going to happen next.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEL-90mreNg
While the guy starting from 2:05 - when he shoots you see him adjust his stroke ever so slightly. He gets the action he wants but has to think about what to do to do it - Efren simply strokes.
Just my opinion though ,
-Richard
Least amount of effort to acieve the same result. As with some of us. Stroke issues show up with the more power we apply. What would the proper hand position be at the point of contact with the cue ball. Straight down or slightly forward. I have seen where parallel english can help get more side spin. I have always basically raised my tip for high english. Would a level cue playing high English be right or wrong. I am still learning there are several cue angle ways to play position. Each can have a different result. Changing grip position. Loose and tight grips. So many facets of pool. So many things to learn. I am 45 and am always trying to learn something new. Look at that Corey Duel shot. How many people can do that? Now matter how good you are. There is always a shot you see that makes you scratch your head.
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another great stroke by Corey Deuel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KsVm9ePlk#t=776 (min 13:00)
I broke my OB1 ferrule trying this...
I finally achieved this shot with less power and better cue acceleration (and hitting low!), not a lot of power is needed in reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KsVm9ePlk#t=776 (min 13:00)
I broke my OB1 ferrule trying this...
I finally achieved this shot with less power and better cue acceleration (and hitting low!), not a lot of power is needed in reality.
What is good stroke objective?? Is to deliver the cue not the cb to the correct approach angle and line of aim and correct contact tip at cb , what happens fraction of a second after that do not matter. If one does not prep his warm up stroke correctly and get muscels used to the shot ( storing in memory direction of stroke for each shot), he or she will have hard time making balls.
What is good stroke objective?? Is to deliver the cue not the cb to the correct approach angle and line of aim and correct contact tip at cb , what happens fraction of a second after that do not matter. If one does not prep his warm up stroke correctly and get muscels used to the shot ( storing in memory direction of stroke for each shot), he or she will have hard time making balls.
Folks who comfortably assert (or think) that follow through can have no effect on what the CB does after the CB has left the cue tip are looking at the issue from the wrong point of view. The bio-mechanics involved in the delivery stroke are the central reason that follow through is a key determinant in exactly achieving the intended effect of the stroke in the first place.
This is easy to grasp by considering the amount of follow through seen for example in the delivery of a baseball pitch or as an elemental part of sending a bowling ball on its way. In both cases the ball has departed on its way and a short or non-existent follow through would be inconceivable -- in fact quite ridiculous and counter-productive were they connected to forward-swinging delivery of a baseball or bowling ball.
This bears precisely on the forward-delivery issue when considering the matter of the pool stroking follow through because . . .
. . . in order for all the delivery-associated muscles of a pool player’s arm and hand to produce an abrupt or only inches-long further forward motion of the cue tip immediately after CB/cue tip impact, the nerve signals will necessarily have already been sent to those required muscles/tendons in *advance* of the bio-mechanical action taking place -- directly affecting the *nature* and efficiency of the arm's mechanical action.
It’s clear that smoothness of stroke, optimal relaxed engagement of delivery-associated muscles, and deliberately trained follow through are three distinctly inter-related parts of the ideal-result-producing mechanical motion.
In my view,this is the way to look at the matter of follow through as it relates to quality stroking and effective pool playing.
Arnaldo
This is easy to grasp by considering the amount of follow through seen for example in the delivery of a baseball pitch or as an elemental part of sending a bowling ball on its way. In both cases the ball has departed on its way and a short or non-existent follow through would be inconceivable -- in fact quite ridiculous and counter-productive were they connected to forward-swinging delivery of a baseball or bowling ball.
This bears precisely on the forward-delivery issue when considering the matter of the pool stroking follow through because . . .
. . . in order for all the delivery-associated muscles of a pool player’s arm and hand to produce an abrupt or only inches-long further forward motion of the cue tip immediately after CB/cue tip impact, the nerve signals will necessarily have already been sent to those required muscles/tendons in *advance* of the bio-mechanical action taking place -- directly affecting the *nature* and efficiency of the arm's mechanical action.
It’s clear that smoothness of stroke, optimal relaxed engagement of delivery-associated muscles, and deliberately trained follow through are three distinctly inter-related parts of the ideal-result-producing mechanical motion.
In my view,this is the way to look at the matter of follow through as it relates to quality stroking and effective pool playing.
Arnaldo