Can elbow drop change your CB contact point

Ralph Kramden

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
Can elbow drop change where the tip actually contacts the cue ball? I'd say the cue tip contact point could change dramatically... and may not hit the CB aim point. I also think players with longer arms can utilize a full pendulum type stroke much better than the shorter armed players.

Just think of a pendulum swinging on a clock. The bottom of the pendulum travels a much greater distance than the middle of the pendulum. To travel the same stroking distance as the long arm player, the shorter arm player must drop his elbow a slight amount, and his shoulder moves. This could make contacting the CB on the aim spot more difficult. Thinking about your elbow dropping when playing can also hamper your stroke.

So what's my point here?... I'm thinking that some elbow drop doesn't really matter... as long as your elbow drops after your cue tip makes contact on the CB.

That is why the cue tip should almost be touching the CB when aiming. The player with a full pendulum stroke would hit the CB at the bottom of his arc, and the short arm player would hit the CB before his elbow begins to drop. Again... IMO
.
 
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15 minutes could change your mind.

Everybody knows that.

Did you know that............

randyg
 
randyg said:
15 minutes could change your mind.

Everybody knows that.

Did you know that............

randyg
Click to expand...

randyg.... No, I didn't know that... or even what your implying.
Please explain your thoughts to change my mind. I'm all ears.
I'm sure everyone else who knows would like to listen as well.
 
Consult the striking viking.

Ralph Kramden said:
Can elbow drop change where the tip actually contacts the cue ball? I'd say the cue tip contact point could change dramatically... and may not hit the CB aim point. I also think players with longer arms can utilize a full pendulum type stroke much better than the shorter armed players.

Just think of a pendulum swinging on a clock. The bottom of the pendulum travels a much greater distance than the middle of the pendulum. To travel the same stroking distance as the long arm player, the shorter arm player must drop his elbow a slight amount, and his shoulder moves. This could make contacting the CB on the aim spot more difficult. Thinking about your elbow dropping when playing can also hamper your stroke.

So what's my point here?... I'm thinking that some elbow drop doesn't really matter... as long as your elbow drops after your cue tip makes contact on the CB.

That is why the cue tip should almost be touching the CB when aiming. The player with a full pendulum stroke would hit the CB at the bottom of his arc, and the short arm player would hit the CB before his elbow begins to drop. Again... IMO
.
Click to expand...
Here's a good video lesson from Ewa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTbZTloLwXc
 
Big C said:
Here's a good video lesson from Ewa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTbZTloLwXc
Click to expand...

Thanks for the video Big C.. I've never seen that video before.

If you tower over the table reaching every shot with ease, use a true pendulum stroke. If the table is 1 1/2 times longer than you are tall, the use of a slight amount of elbow drop isn't going to hurt your stroke. You need a straight follow through,.. but if you have short arms and have a very hard to reach shot.. don't fight what comes naturally. Don't drop your elbow if possible, but don't fight against doing it either. Again... IMO
 
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Ralph Kramden said:
Thanks for the video Big C.. I've never seen that video before.

If you tower over the table reaching every shot with ease, use a true pendulum stroke. If the table is 1 1/2 times longer than you are tall, the use of a slight amount of elbow drop isn't going to hurt your stroke. You need a straight follow through,.. but if you have short arms and have a very hard to reach shot.. don't fight what comes naturally. Don't drop your elbow if possible, but don't fight against doing it either. Again... IMO
Click to expand...

If you can get your tip to the cb with a straight down forearm, you don't need to drop your elbow. If you can't reach the cb with your tip, you should be using the bridge on that shot.
 
Ralph Kramden said:
randyg.... No, I didn't know that... or even what your implying.
Please explain your thoughts to change my mind. I'm all ears.
I'm sure everyone else who knows would like to listen as well.
Click to expand...

There are three important elements of the pendulum Stroke.

1. Tip very close to cue ball in set up position. (1/4 inch)
2. Back hand directly below elbow.
3. Loose back hand. (Cradle)

Now no matter what size the person is, the tip will return to level at the time of contact.


randyg
 
randyg said:
There are three important elements of the pendulum Stroke.

1. Tip very close to cue ball in set up position. (1/4 inch)
2. Back hand directly below elbow.
3. Loose back hand. (Cradle)

Now no matter what size the person is, the tip will return to level at the time of contact.


randyg
Click to expand...

What he said :-)

Imo one of the most made mistakes and reason for misses- that ppl not able to hit the cueball where they *aim* at........and so easy to fix!
 
Neil said:
If you can get your tip to the cb with a straight down forearm, you don't need to drop your elbow. If you can't reach the cb with your tip, you should be using the bridge on that shot.
Click to expand...

Using the bridge could be a solution, but what if you need to put a little juice on the CB for shape? I never could do that very well using the bridge.
Drawing the CB, or sliding it into position when I'm stretched out I know my elbow will drop after hitting the CB, even though I'm just following thru.
 
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.if you don't coil your shoulder you won't need to "drop" it.

"What comes up, must come down".....when the players coil their shoulder it also makes the elbow come up slightly and this will encourage the so called "elbow drop".....if you don't coil your shoulder you won't need to "drop" it.

Mike Sigel is the best example of this.....I also coil my shoulder and recommend it.

great-1.jpg



Ralph Kramden said:
Can elbow drop change where the tip actually contacts the cue ball? I'd say the cue tip contact point could change dramatically... and may not hit the CB aim point. I also think players with longer arms can utilize a full pendulum type stroke much better than the shorter armed players.

Just think of a pendulum swinging on a clock. The bottom of the pendulum travels a much greater distance than the middle of the pendulum. To travel the same stroking distance as the long arm player, the shorter arm player must drop his elbow a slight amount, and his shoulder moves. This could make contacting the CB on the aim spot more difficult. Thinking about your elbow dropping when playing can also hamper your stroke.

So what's my point here?... I'm thinking that some elbow drop doesn't really matter... as long as your elbow drops after your cue tip makes contact on the CB.

That is why the cue tip should almost be touching the CB when aiming. The player with a full pendulum stroke would hit the CB at the bottom of his arc, and the short arm player would hit the CB before his elbow begins to drop. Again... IMO
.
Click to expand...
 
Ralph Kramden said:
Do you see any elbow drop here?... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4niYd9ccsQw
Click to expand...

One thing you might want to notice -- and it's not unique to this particular timestamped shot -- is that Ralph Eckert does NOT have a particularly dead-nuts straight back and through stroke:

Head-on view at 3:44:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4niYd9ccsQw#t=3m44s

Notice that Ralph rests the cue very deeply into his hand (directly in contact with the "fist" knuckles on his hand), and he has a bit of a wrist "flick" when delivering the cue as well. Notice the wrist flick isn't straight -- watch the travel of the cue, and you can see a wobble and a bit of steer to one side. This is inherent with a wrist-flick-"ish" stroke like his. The reason for this, is that the human hand is NOT of a symmetrical design -- most of the "meat" of the hand is to one side of the cue (on the outside of the cue away from the body), and the fingers travel under the cue in one direction only (inwards towards the body). Thus, the wrist flick tends to pull the cue to one side (slightly, but noticeable if you view the cue delivery head-on or from behind).

As for the elbow drop, I think a wristy delivery would have more to do with inaccuracy than a straight-down elbow drop. That's why, btw, you see wrist-stabilizing devices like the ProShot wrist stabilizer:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=205538

I'm not a particular advocate for elbow drop (I pin my elbow even on the most powerful shots), but I don't discourage it, either, because most of the most-accurate snooker players in the world implement a bit of elbow drop (e.g. Ronnie O'Sullivan).

Thinking about the length of one's forearm in relation to the size of the arc produced for a pendulum stroke is pedantic. You're w-a-y overthinking this.

Just FYI.
-Sean
 
Some short armed players seem to keep their upper arm more level to the floor than many taller players with longer arms.
Earl always keeps his elbow high during the warm up strokes, but drops his elbow quite a bit when he strikes the cue ball.
 
One thing i notice a lot with players that drop their elbow on the majority of shots is they either play with a straight bridge arm, or they grip the cue too far back/ forward.
By playing with a bent bridge arm, you can follow through further before the grip hand hits the chest. It can be quite uncomfortable slamming your hand into the chest so most get into the habit of dropping the elbow, especially when power is needed to avoid the discomfort....which is why most players struggle pocketing balls when extra power is needed.
By gripping the cue in such a way that the forearm doesn't hang straight down forces you to also drop the elbow. Its quite hard to see if your elbow hangs straight down without the use of mirrors or video footage. A guy i play with has his forearm at around 30 degrees to the straight position at cb address. Because of this his stroke is all shoulder movement...sure he can hammer a ball like a champ, but he cant hit it where he intends with any consistency.

Watch some of the great snooker players and most will drop the elbow, but this is after contact with the cb is made. One exception that comes to mind is Ronnie O'Sullivan. Watching him at this years World Snooker Championships only a few feet away from him i noticed he drops his elbow way too soon, mostly on slow stun shots and shots hit with side. But he is an exception, and goes against the grain. I have tried cueing like Ronnie and i end up hitting the cb higher than i intended.
 
Pidge said:
One thing i notice a lot with players that drop their elbow on the majority of shots is they either play with a straight bridge arm, or they grip the cue too far back/ forward.
By playing with a bent bridge arm, you can follow through further before the grip hand hits the chest. It can be quite uncomfortable slamming your hand into the chest so most get into the habit of dropping the elbow, especially when power is needed to avoid the discomfort....which is why most players struggle pocketing balls when extra power is needed.
By gripping the cue in such a way that the forearm doesn't hang straight down forces you to also drop the elbow. Its quite hard to see if your elbow hangs straight down without the use of mirrors or video footage. A guy i play with has his forearm at around 30 degrees to the straight position at cb address. Because of this his stroke is all shoulder movement...sure he can hammer a ball like a champ, but he cant hit it where he intends with any consistency.

Watch some of the great snooker players and most will drop the elbow, but this is after contact with the cb is made. One exception that comes to mind is Ronnie O'Sullivan. Watching him at this years World Snooker Championships only a few feet away from him i noticed he drops his elbow way too soon, mostly on slow stun shots and shots hit with side. But he is an exception, and goes against the grain. I have tried cueing like Ronnie and i end up hitting the cb higher than i intended.
Click to expand...

No more following through to the joint? Really, if I don't drop my elbow my followthru feels very abrupt. Furthermore, if the elbow doesn't drop, won't the tip dive into the table?
 
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BeiberLvr said:
Judd Trump is a great example of someone that can get incredible action on the CB without dropping his elbow. Of course, there are times when he drops it as well, but from what I've observed his elbow is pinned on the majority of his shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPZmHuzQOLY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxk8tBnuP0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K6CrgmqscI
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Yup, and his instructional video as well:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=KZA67elaLPI

Probably the best example you're going to ever see in the snooker world of a pendulum stroke with a pinned elbow.

-Sean
 
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