Proof of what causes miscues

I think this issue is missing some talk about a very important, or maybe not so important, related issue that just keeps coming up.

"stroke"


I mean, what is a stroke?

Is there magic in a stroke that some have and some don't? If so, what's the difference?

Does one go faster than another?

Does the tip twist or dive when it hits the cue ball?

Is it just that it's straight and hits the cue ball where it's supposed to?


Me personally, I always thought that the only factors that go into the physics are direction and speed. Obviously, mass comes into play but that's a constant rather than a variable. At least it is for each shot made with the same cue.

But I always hear some talk about acceleration. Does it really matter if the cue is accelerating when it hits the cue ball? I mean, just how much can it accelerate during the tip to ball contact? Or maybe it's that it doesn't decelerate as much because there is more energy applied to it during the contact. But again, just how much could that be given that the tip isn't really on the ball for more than a tiny fraction of a second.

Just curious really, as to what the other thoughts out there really are and what supports them.


Royce
 
RBC said:
But I always hear some talk about acceleration. Does it really matter if the cue is accelerating when it hits the cue ball?
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. What matters is speed. But you're not going to be able to generate as much speed as possible unless you keep accelerating all the way to the ball. And if you're not trying to accelerate through it, you're probably not accelerating all the way to it.

RBC said:
I mean, just how much can it accelerate during the tip to ball contact?
Click to expand...

None. In fact, it always decelerates during contact, even in the greatest of strokes.

RBC said:
Or maybe it's that it doesn't decelerate as much because there is more energy applied to it during the contact.
Click to expand...

This is actually one of the things that became a lot clearer due to high speed video and our friend Dr. Dave.

Turns out your hand is soft enough, even if you're gripping as tightly as you can, that you can't effectively apply any energy to it during the contact (and deceleration).

The tip hits the ball, which slows the cue down (and speeds the ball up). The slowing of the cue deforms the flesh of your grip hand a little. Your hand deforms as much as it's going to and then bounces back, speeding the cue back up a bit as you finish your stroke. But this is after the ball's already gone. So while it might feel like you're applying force during contact, you might as well have let go of the cue in the instant before contact.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
RBC said:
Does it really matter if the cue is accelerating when it hits the cue ball?
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't. What matters is speed. But you're not going to be able to generate as much speed as possible unless you keep accelerating all the way to the ball. And if you're not trying to accelerate through it, you're probably not accelerating all the way to it.
Click to expand...
I agree. If people want supporting information, it can be found on the stroke acceleration resource page.

Andrew Manning said:
RBC said:
I mean, just how much can it accelerate during the tip to ball contact?
Click to expand...
None. In fact, it always decelerates during contact, even in the greatest of strokes.
Click to expand...
For a demonstration, see:

HSV B.40 - Stroke speed and acceleration analysis, with Bob Jewett

Andrew Manning said:
RBC said:
Or maybe it's that it doesn't decelerate as much because there is more energy applied to it during the contact.
Click to expand...
This is actually one of the things that became a lot clearer due to high speed video and our friend Dr. Dave.

Turns out your hand is soft enough, even if you're gripping as tightly as you can, that you can't effectively apply any energy to it during the contact (and deceleration).

The tip hits the ball, which slows the cue down (and speeds the ball up). The slowing of the cue deforms the flesh of your grip hand a little. Your hand deforms as much as it's going to and then bounces back, speeding the cue back up a bit as you finish your stroke. But this is after the ball's already gone. So while it might feel like you're applying force during contact, you might as well have let go of the cue in the instant before contact.
Click to expand...
For further explanation and supporting resources on this topic, see:

effects of light vs. tight grip resource page
stroke follow-through resource page

Enjoy,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I think this illustration shows what you are talking about here:

tip_offset.jpg

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

This isn't the same tip to ball contact. When I teach how to jump I tell people to imagine taking the tip and ball and rotating it 45 degrees leaving the tip addressing the ball in exactly the same place.

Miscues happen for two reasons - either the well chalked tip is too far out to make a solid hit on the ball or the tip does not have enough chalk to maintain friction with the offset chosen.

Miscues on a draw shot happen for the same reason that they happen with any other application of spin.

Hitting the cloth first might be counted as a miscue but what it really is would be illegal scooping of the ball.

Since every miscue is double hit on the cue ball it should be an automatic foul anyway. I believe the Jacksonville experiment slow motion video showed that.
 
Cool videos, askalf. Thanks for sharing them. These videos clearly demonstrate miscues that happen during cue tip-cue ball contact, before the tip ever contacts the cloth.

I wonder what kind of camera is used in these videos. Great stuff!

-Blake
 
Andrew Manning said:
No, it doesn't. What matters is speed. But you're not going to be able to generate as much speed as possible unless you keep accelerating all the way to the ball. And if you're not trying to accelerate through it, you're probably not accelerating all the way to it.



None. In fact, it always decelerates during contact, even in the greatest of strokes.



This is actually one of the things that became a lot clearer due to high speed video and our friend Dr. Dave.

Turns out your hand is soft enough, even if you're gripping as tightly as you can, that you can't effectively apply any energy to it during the contact (and deceleration).

The tip hits the ball, which slows the cue down (and speeds the ball up). The slowing of the cue deforms the flesh of your grip hand a little. Your hand deforms as much as it's going to and then bounces back, speeding the cue back up a bit as you finish your stroke. But this is after the ball's already gone. So while it might feel like you're applying force during contact, you might as well have let go of the cue in the instant before contact.

-Andrew
Click to expand...



Andrew

It's actually very refreshing to see others who like to look at things truthfully and with logic and not just "drink the coolaid".

Thank You!

I actually have pretty much exactly the same conclusions as you. I too believe that acceleration is very important to keep your stroke straight and correctly judge the speed. I don't buy into the conclusion that it's the acceleration while the ball is on the tip that causes great spin. Those guys, like Corey Deuel for example, who can create these crazy spin shots, do so because they have the ability to hit the cue ball, on the ragged edge of a miscue, with great speed. Corey also plays with a pretty heavy cue, which not helps him with the big spin shots, but also stands as testament to his true skill and ability.

Thanks again for you honest and logical posts.


Royce
 
yall are making this too complicated,the cue tip slips off the cueball and into the cloth,not the other way around. Have you ever seen the follow thru of Earl breaking the cue always hits the cloth afterwards,it just happens so fast you dont realize it until you see in in slo-mo. i miscue more from getting way out on the cb trying to throw balls with side english and its not hitting the cloth there, and i look at my tip and its usually because i didnt have enough chalk on it. I do agree with Kenisters analysis, thats why when you learn to draw the ball correctly you learn to lower your bridge hand to hit lower on the cueball and not to elevate your cue,keeping a level cue will help you from miscueing. In our minds we tend to think that we have to elevate more on longer draw shots,yes there is some slight elevation. A long draw shot requires a lot better stroke obviously,but all the same fundamentals of a short draw stroke still apply. Lowering bridge hand,moving bridge hand closer to the CB,keeping a pretty level cue,and striking the cueball with a quick straight stroke and following thru the shot. The tip size and radius and softness have some effect also. Lots of variables effect a good draw shot.
 
Watch SVB

Lucky_Lew66 said:
yall are making this too complicated,the cue tip slips off the cueball and into the cloth,not the other way around. Have you ever seen the follow thru of Earl breaking the cue always hits the cloth afterwards,it just happens so fast you dont realize it until you see in in slo-mo. i miscue more from getting way out on the cb trying to throw balls with side english and its not hitting the cloth there, and i look at my tip and its usually because i didnt have enough chalk on it. I do agree with Kenisters analysis, thats why when you learn to draw the ball correctly you learn to lower your bridge hand to hit lower on the cueball and not to elevate your cue,keeping a level cue will help you from miscueing. In our minds we tend to think that we have to elevate more on longer draw shots,yes there is some slight elevation. A long draw shot requires a lot better stroke obviously,but all the same fundamentals of a short draw stroke still apply. Lowering bridge hand,moving bridge hand closer to the CB,keeping a pretty level cue,and striking the cueball with a quick straight stroke and following thru the shot. The tip size and radius and softness have some effect also. Lots of variables effect a good draw shot.
Click to expand...

Shane's Cue is always elevated when he draws the ball, he doesn't low his bridge hand to be level, or his back hand for that matter.
 
RBC said:
Those guys, like Corey Deuel for example, who can create these crazy spin shots, do so because they have the ability to hit the cue ball, on the ragged edge of a miscue, with great speed.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This is what we should all be focusing on when we try to work on our "stroke"; you have to figure out and ingrain a technique that allows you to add lots of speed without losing the accuracy required to hit right at the miscue limit.

A billion times easier said than done, though.

-Andrew
 
Lucky_Lew66 said:
... when you learn to draw the ball correctly you learn to lower your bridge hand to hit lower on the cueball and not to elevate your cue,keeping a level cue will help you from miscueing. In our minds we tend to think that we have to elevate more on longer draw shots,yes there is some slight elevation. A long draw shot requires a lot better stroke obviously,but all the same fundamentals of a short draw stroke still apply. Lowering bridge hand,moving bridge hand closer to the CB,keeping a pretty level cue,and striking the cueball with a quick straight stroke and following thru the shot.
Click to expand...
Good advice. If people want more advice concerning effective draw shots, see the following videos:

NV B.97 - Draw shot technique, physics, and examples
NV B.65 - Power draw technique advice from VEPS I

More info can be found on the draw shot technique advice resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
robsnotes4u said:
Shane's Cue is always elevated when he draws the ball, he doesn't low his bridge hand to be level, or his back hand for that matter.
Click to expand...
That doesn't mean added cue elevation is better for draw shots in general. There are cases where cue elevation helps or is necessary with draw shots; but in general, cue elevation reduces the amount of draw. For more info, and examples, see:

"Draw Shot Physics - Part IV: cue elevation effects" (BD, July, 2009)

Regards,
Dave
 
RBC said:
I too believe that acceleration is very important to keep your stroke straight and correctly judge the speed. I don't buy into the conclusion that it's the acceleration while the ball is on the tip that causes great spin.
Click to expand...
Well stated. I agree too.

RBC said:
Those guys, like Corey Deuel for example, who can create these crazy spin shots, do so because they have the ability to hit the cue ball, on the ragged edge of a miscue, with great speed.
Click to expand...
Actually, with long power draw shots, it is better to be slightly above the miscue limit. It is not worth the risk to push the miscue limit, and it will actually result in less spin at the object ball. For more info, see the physics-based draw advice resource page and “How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011).

Regards,
Dave
 
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