Is it impossible to miscue when drawing with a large diameter tip?

[CreeDo]

What you're proposing sounds almost like allowing the tip to hit the cloth on purpose
with every draw shot, sort of like how it hits the cloth on hard breaks.
Then you just let the tip slide along the cloth to the base of the ball and if it's fat enough,
it hits the bottom of the cue ball without scooping it.

A fun theory but impractical I think. I wonder if the act of striking the cloth first
causes the tip to rebound upward a little bit. Which might in turn result
in a miscue anyway.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I think you'd jump the CB in this instance (hitting the CB while the bottom of the tip was in contact with the cloth), even if your tip diameter was large enough to make a miscue impossible. With the tip braced against the cloth, it would be unable to deflect away, kind of like a tip with infinite end-mass. The CB would be forced to deflect upwards, I would think. It would be an interesting experiment anyway.

-Andrew

 

[nineballsafety8]

I think you'd jump the CB in this instance (hitting the CB while the bottom of the tip was in contact with the cloth), even if your tip diameter was large enough to make a miscue impossible. With the tip braced against the cloth, it would be unable to deflect away, kind of like a tip with infinite end-mass. The CB would be forced to deflect upwards, I would think. It would be an interesting experiment anyway.

-Andrew

^ this

and exactly THIS!!!

TAP TAP TAP
someone paid attention in high school physics class lol

 

[cueman]

I think people can miscue with any size tip.

 

[bdcues]

Actually, you can't. Hit further than 60% of the radius away from the equator (as measured from a perpendicular line with your shaft) with left, right, top, whatever, and you're going to miscue.

Dr Dave's site has the data: http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/april09.pdf

Have not checked your link but I can tell you with 100% assurance that I can line the outer edge of the shaft up with the outer edge of the ball and stroke without miscue. Also have not done the math... 12.75mm tip with dime radius. I would think I am close to 70% of the radius away from the equator.

 

[DeadStick]

Have not checked your link but I can tell you with 100% assurance that I can line the outer edge of the shaft up with the outer edge of the ball and stroke without miscue. Also have not done the math... 12.75mm tip with dime radius. I would think I am close to 70% of the radius away from the equator.

The outer edge of your tip isn't making contact. The inner edge is. A contact point 70% of the radius from center ball WILL result in a miscue according to those who have done the research.

 

[Blue]

I have a basic question

which is the right way to draw a shot?

levelled cue striking the bottom of cue ball or elevated downwards towards the bottom?

 

[DeadStick]

I have a basic question

which is the right way to draw a shot?

levelled cue striking the bottom of cue ball or elevated downwards towards the bottom?

Both will work; most instructors recommend getting your cue as level as possible. But if you watch Massey or Nevel really juice a draw shot, they've usually got a little more elevation. See http://youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg

 

[bdcues]

The outer edge of your tip isn't making contact. The inner edge is. A contact point 70% of the radius from center ball WILL result in a miscue according to those who have done the research.

Well aware the outer edge is not making contact... that is why I stated ferrule size and tip radius.

 

[DeadStick]

Well aware the outer edge is not making contact... that is why I stated ferrule size and tip radius.

Gotcha. I'll do the math:

The CB radius is 28.6 mm. The contact point with your 12.75 mm tip aligned to CB edge would be around 11 mm from the outside edge, so 11/28.6 is 38%, meaning you're around 62% from the center. This assumes your cue is perfectly parallel to the shot line; more likely, it's pointed slightly to the outside, changing the calculation a bit.

It's easy to test your hypothesis: lay your cue flat on the table, and slide it into the CB trying to hit a draw shot. I just tried it with 12.5 and 13 mm tips and got miscues on every attempt.

 

[Blue]

Both will work; most instructors recommend getting your cue as level as possible. But if you watch Massey or Nevel really juice a draw shot, they've usually got a little more elevation. See http://youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg

I used the elevated method mostly

But for some reason, it keep miscuing or cue ball goes airborne.

the levelled cue method is like a safe draw, it will not miscue much but it will not draw back as much, usually ending up short.

 

[nineballsafety8]

I used the elevated method mostly

But for some reason, it keep miscuing or cue ball goes airborne.

the levelled cue method is like a safe draw, it will not miscue much but it will not draw back as much, usually ending up short.

This is a common misconception as it pertains to a well struck draw shot. A level cue will ALWAYS under ALL circumstances create more backspin on the cueball (draw) than an elevated cue. This is 100% FACT.
However, when players like Massey, and Nevel "juice up for a draw shot"... they DO elevate... why you ask.

This is simple, a well struck draw shot with a level cue is in constant contact with the table and as the cueball slides toward the object ball, the amount of backspin is reduced due to friction.

By elevating a well struck draw shot you are INTENTIONALLY jumping the cueball, even if just by a few millimeters. That way the cueball is "bouncing" as it approached the object ball... giving you less time in contact with the felt... there for letting the backspin "carry" further down the table.

All of the above is fact, and if you think about what has been said... cannot be argued.

 

[DeadStick]

This is a common misconception as it pertains to a well struck draw shot. A level cue will ALWAYS under ALL circumstances create more backspin on the cueball (draw) than an elevated cue. This is 100% FACT.

However, when players like Massey, and Nevel "juice up for a draw shot"... they DO elevate... why you ask.



This is simple, a well struck draw shot with a level cue is in constant contact with the table and as the cueball slides toward the object ball, the amount of backspin is reduced due to friction.



By elevating a well struck draw shot you are INTENTIONALLY jumping the cueball, even if just by a few millimeters. That way the cueball is "bouncing" as it approached the object ball... giving you less time in contact with the felt... there for letting the backspin "carry" further down the table.



All of the above is fact, and if you think about what has been said... cannot be argued.

That's what I used to think, too, until I read the research at http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/july09.pdf :

"Some people think that with an elevated cue, the CB will be airborne during most of the shot, and therefore won’t be losing any spin on the way to the object ball (OB). The airborne part is true, especially for fast speed shots, because the cue elevation drives the CB into the table causing the ball to hop and bounce on the way to the OB. It is also true that the CB doesn’t lose significant spin while it is airborne (because there is no friction between the CB and the cloth). However, the CB loses significant spin during the hops, including the first hop when the CB is driven down into the table. The more you elevate the cue, the less spin the CB will have when it gets to the OB, for a given tip offset and cue speed. "

 

[Andrew Manning]

By elevating a well struck draw shot you are INTENTIONALLY jumping the cueball, even if just by a few millimeters. That way the cueball is "bouncing" as it approached the object ball... giving you less time in contact with the felt... there for letting the backspin "carry" further down the table.

Also, by elevating you might be sort of tricking yourself into hitting with a lower effective tip offset. If you aim your stroke at a constant point on the surface of the CB, you'll get more backspin if you elevate the back of the cue. That's because that point you're aiming at is further away from your effective center-ball when you elevate.

Anyone who doesn't understand this should imagine elevating the cue all the way to 90 degrees. The "effective center" would now be the very top of the ball, and the point on the back of the ball that used to be center before you elevated would now be so far off center as to guarantee a miscue.

So if you're the type of person who's going to aim at the same spot on the CB whether or not you elevate, you're going to get more draw (and a higher chance of miscue) by elevating.

-Andrew

 

[nineballsafety8]

That's what I used to think, too, until I read the research at http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/july09.pdf :

"Some people think that with an elevated cue, the CB will be airborne during most of the shot, and therefore won’t be losing any spin on the way to the object ball (OB). The airborne part is true, especially for fast speed shots, because the cue elevation drives the CB into the table causing the ball to hop and bounce on the way to the OB. It is also true that the CB doesn’t lose significant spin while it is airborne (because there is no friction between the CB and the cloth). However, the CB loses significant spin during the hops, including the first hop when the CB is driven down into the table. The more you elevate the cue, the less spin the CB will have when it gets to the OB, for a given tip offset and cue speed. "

That is true for a normally struck ball with an elevated cue. A full table draw shot can be better accomplished with a bouncing ball (if the distance the ball is jumped is controlled)

 

[chefjeff]

Fwiw, the type and condition of the cloth makes a difference, too.

Jeff Livingston

 

[dr_dave]

This is a common misconception as it pertains to a well struck draw shot. A level cue will ALWAYS under ALL circumstances create more backspin on the cueball (draw) than an elevated cue. This is 100% FACT.
However, when players like Massey, and Nevel "juice up for a draw shot"... they DO elevate... why you ask.

That's what I used to think, too, until I read the research at http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/july09.pdf :

"Some people think that with an elevated cue, the CB will be airborne during most of the shot, and therefore won’t be losing any spin on the way to the object ball (OB). The airborne part is true, especially for fast speed shots, because the cue elevation drives the CB into the table causing the ball to hop and bounce on the way to the OB. It is also true that the CB doesn’t lose significant spin while it is airborne (because there is no friction between the CB and the cloth). However, the CB loses significant spin during the hops, including the first hop when the CB is driven down into the table. The more you elevate the cue, the less spin the CB will have when it gets to the OB, for a given tip offset and cue speed. "

That is true for a normally struck ball with an elevated cue. A full table draw shot can be better accomplished with a bouncing ball (if the distance the ball is jumped is controlled)

Check out the Mike Massey power draw video. I think the only reason he has the cue elevated here is: he doesn't want to crush his knuckles on the rail during the stroke.

With a full-table-length draw shot, you might need to elevate the cue to get the tip low enough on the cue ball (where the elevation is required to clear the rail cushion).

Those are the only reasonable explanations for why one would want to elevate the cue on a straight power draw shot; although, even in these cases, you would want to use as little elevation as possible if your goal is to get the most draw action. For more info, see:

draw shot technique advice
draw shot cue elevation effects
cue elevation effects resource page
power draw technique advice

I hope that helps,
Dave

PS: Another example where elevation might be helpful is if a person drops their elbow significantly during the stroke. If the elbow drops before CB contact, the cue will need to start more elevated, with the tip lower than desired, for the cue to be more level and for the tip contact point to be at the desired height at contact with the ball.

 

[dr_dave]

Fwiw, the type and condition of the cloth makes a difference, too.

Good point. On a really slick cloth, the extra elevation doesn't reduce the initial backspin as much (i.e., not as much spin is lost when the CB is driven down into the slate off the tip).

Regards,
Dave

 

[chefjeff]

Good point. On a really slick cloth, the extra elevation doesn't reduce the initial backspin as much (i.e., not as much spin is lost when the CB is driven down into the slate off the tip).

Regards,
Dave

I was just watching your video where you personally did the power draw. I'd like to see what your arm was doing during the shot, not just what happened to the balls.

I have a twitching problem and it tends to creep up when I'm drawing a long ways. This makes my shoulder rise and that naturally lowers the tip and MISCUE! Some days I can't get rid of it; others I'm fine. I'm working on feeling the weight of the butt in my hand along with a better shot thought and that helps me keep my whole stroking system in place. But still I sometimes lift the butt.

Thanks for adding to this forum.


Jeff Livingston

 

[itsfroze]

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