Shop Talk.
- Thread starter JB Cases
- Start date
Glue is whole OTHER topic. Most contact cement type glue is made from leather and it varies in strength widely depending on application and supplier.
Contact cement is perfectly fine for tips and much stronger than super glue BUT the curing time is much longer which is the reason most don't want to use it. Contact cement used properly forms a super tough bond. But most people don't know how to use it which is to prepare the surfaces properly and let it get tacky on both sides before joining. If that is done and with sufficient pressure then the bond is solid providing the glue is the right one for what's being joined.
Our glue is shipped from a city several hours away because near us no one provides glue of sufficient quality. We also order glue that was made in the USA for certain parts that we feel need to have an even stronger bond.
There is an art to using glue and every leather worker has their own secret sauce so to speak. Especially tip guys. Regarding leather wraps they do represent actually one of the higher arts in leather due to the fact that they MUST be skived accurately. I personally wouldn't want to do leather wraps as a business knowing how precise and careful you have to be. Anyone that does good leather wrap work deserves what they charge in my opinion because they probably ruined a lot of wrap jobs learning to do it.
John. Don't let this go into a back and forth thread once again.
Take a deep breath, water under the bridge and continue on with your intentions of an instructional Thread.
Yer easily led into a fight and you know it. You proved your point in case this time so no need to dwell on it any further.
This particular video, the person seemed to know what he is talking about. One application of cement, let it dry as normal. The idea is the same as many repairmen, myself included. The idea is to allow the cement to wick into the leather, then another application of glue so you are bonding glue to glue.
The same with installing tips. Many will apply a coat of thin CA and allow it to wick in and dry before using a Gel CA or whatever other glue is their preference. It is a little more time consuming by a whole 5 minutes but worth the piece of mind knowing that the chances of a tip popping are minimal.
Take a deep breath, water under the bridge and continue on with your intentions of an instructional Thread.
Yer easily led into a fight and you know it. You proved your point in case this time so no need to dwell on it any further.
This particular video, the person seemed to know what he is talking about. One application of cement, let it dry as normal. The idea is the same as many repairmen, myself included. The idea is to allow the cement to wick into the leather, then another application of glue so you are bonding glue to glue.
The same with installing tips. Many will apply a coat of thin CA and allow it to wick in and dry before using a Gel CA or whatever other glue is their preference. It is a little more time consuming by a whole 5 minutes but worth the piece of mind knowing that the chances of a tip popping are minimal.
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No worries. Did you know that one of the byproducts of leather production is gelatin?
This stuff is so widely used that you don't even know all the products it's in. But if you have ever eaten a gummy bear then you are eating the skin of an animal.
It's really interesting to think of all the ways animals are used to provide for humans. This is getting outside the scope of the shop talk but it's fascinating nonetheless. Tomorrow I will get back to the shop and show some methods we use to put leather together. With different leathers we adjust our methods to insure that each binding is as durable as we can make it.
As I said each person has their own methods. Some use spit or water to dress the surfaces before adding glue. Some will score the leather. I used to use a sanding device called a Jolly sander and it would put in grooves that would sort of lock the tip into place.
I prefer the spit method. It seems to work well when I put on my own tips using super glue gel.
Yep, and we don't even want to get into Mystery Meat Hot Dogs do we.
Never know whats in them but its one thing that we can enjoy and say, who cares.
Along with the tannery, there was also a couple of meat packing plants near by.
One was so old and funky like the tannery, that the popular joke was that there were so many mice and rats around that there was absolutely no doubt that some of the meat in the grinding process was of the nature that we just didn't think about it.
If anything, lots of Rat Poopies in the Hot Dogs. I'm still alive and kicking.
I guess leather work is leather work no matter if you are building cases or installing tips.
After I apply a layer of thin CA, I use a tip *****er on a small hobby anvil and put some small holes in the bottom layer. It gives the Gel Ca something extra to wick into forming what I hope is an even better bond. Some will score the bottom as well.
Funny that one can use several 4 letter words on AZ but it edits out the word P ricker.
Never know whats in them but its one thing that we can enjoy and say, who cares.
Along with the tannery, there was also a couple of meat packing plants near by.
One was so old and funky like the tannery, that the popular joke was that there were so many mice and rats around that there was absolutely no doubt that some of the meat in the grinding process was of the nature that we just didn't think about it.
If anything, lots of Rat Poopies in the Hot Dogs. I'm still alive and kicking.
I guess leather work is leather work no matter if you are building cases or installing tips.
After I apply a layer of thin CA, I use a tip *****er on a small hobby anvil and put some small holes in the bottom layer. It gives the Gel Ca something extra to wick into forming what I hope is an even better bond. Some will score the bottom as well.
Funny that one can use several 4 letter words on AZ but it edits out the word P ricker.
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Well I wouldn't go so far as to classify installing tips as leather working but there is one particular part of doing tips that I think regular leather workers can learn from. That is burnishing the sides. Good tip installers have this down to a science. Often leather workers struggle to do good burnished edges. Some skip this chore altogether and just paint the edges or use a plastic edger liquid.
But well done edging is a true hallmark of great leather work. It shows care and attention to detail and a willingness to go the extra distance to not only make the piece look good but also to make the leather last far longer without fraying.
Edging compacts the fibers on the open edge and adds to the durability.
This man, Bob Park, is a master of the edging technique. All of us who edge aspire to be as good as Bob.
http://leatherworker.net/edging.htm
To me a good tip install has edges that not only rival Bob's in appearance they have the added bonus of being completely practical to help prevent mushrooming.
Similar to leather tips on cues I created laminated leather endcaps for our GTF line of cases. Here is a video of me working them to mold the leather flush to the body and to dress the edges before they are sent out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0rnEXSZ2A
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I hope that everyone that got Red Rep from rigmaster was kind enough to return some back to him. I know I was.
And that's his trade mark comment "lol what a guy"
I know because I have 2 red reps on my page (both from rigmaster). This guy definitely has problems.
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Burnishing is almost a lost art. There are a lot of people who prefer to use products like edgekote and duraedge, but once that fails...... And it will.... There is a raw edge that will start to fray, and for lack of a better term unravel. Burnishing takes time, and thats why a lot of people overlook it, or flat out avoid it.Well I wouldn't go so far as to classify installing tips as leather working but there is one particular part of doing tips that I think regular leather workers can learn from. That is burnishing the sides. Good tip installers have this down to a science. Often leather workers struggle to do good burnished edges. Some skip this chore altogether and just paint the edges or use a plastic edger liquid.
But well done edging is a true hallmark of great leather work. It shows care and attention to detail and a willingness to go the extra distance to not only make the piece look good but also to make the leather last far longer without fraying.
Edging compacts the fibers on the open edge and adds to the durability.
This man, Bob Park, is a master of the edging technique. All of us who edge aspire to be as good as Bob.
http://leatherworker.net/edging.htm
To me a good tip install has edges that not only rival Bob's in appearance they have the added bonus of being completely practical to help prevent mushrooming.
Similar to leather tips on cues I created laminated leather endcaps for our GTF line of cases. Here is a video of me working them to mold the leather flush to the body and to dress the edges before they are sent out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz0rnEXSZ2A
The lid in the picture is two layers of 6-7 oz cemented together, then sanded even, and burnished to look like one piece. Hell, even the tab I put on the compartment lid takes about 15 minutes to make due to beveling the edge, the burnishing it.
And similar to tips, if you want to go through the grits in the sanding operation, you can make it as smooth as glass.
Chuck
Burnishing is almost a lost art. There are a lot of people who prefer to use products like edgekote and duraedge, but once that fails...... And it will.... There is a raw edge that will start to fray, and for lack of a better term unravel. Burnishing takes time, and thats why a lot of people overlook it, or flat out avoid it.
The lid in the picture is two layers of 6-7 oz cemented together, then sanded even, and burnished to look like one piece. Hell, even the tab I put on the compartment lid takes about 15 minutes to make due to beveling the edge, the burnishing it.
And similar to tips, if you want to go through the grits in the sanding operation, you can make it as smooth as glass.
Chuck
You are absolutely right. The burnishing you put on the case you made for me puts ours to shame and I think we do a pretty decent job ourselves.
This is generally regarded as shoddy work in leather working circles, unburnished edges on veg tan.
Most good leather workers would not consider letting that go out of their shop. It's sloppy and lazy.
The only time we don't burnish edges is when the type of leather used won't take burnishing and isn't needed. If we think that the edges need to be protected then we will skive - make the leather thinner - and fold it over and sew it. That also takes a lot more work but the end result is worth it.
More talk about stitching.
As I said at the beginning of this conversation joining leather is an art and not everyone agrees on the best practice. Some methods however are universally frowned on and one of them is stapling leather pieces together. It's a very weak method UNLESS you happen to have a certain type of staples and a machine with enough pressure to embed those staples into the leather. Often staples will be used in no stress parts to be a quick binder for two ends of a loop.
In this image below this is a very bad way to use staples because the lid and handle of a case is a stress position. Eventually the staples weaken and that affects the integrity of the whole piece.
By contrast sewing the parts with a binder piece of goatskin as we do it here insures that the piece will retain its integrity for life.
This is what you want in a quality leather item, not household staples.
This is much more work but when you are considering spending hundreds of dollars on a case then you would want it to be built to last a lifetime. So don't be shy, ask your maker if he uses staples and then decide if you really want to go ahead and compromise for your money. Often you don't get to see under the hood so to speak when it comes to leather goods - but if you could then you might insist on the use of better methods.
Using common staples to put together leather pieces is about the same as using a sharpie to make points. Well actually worse because using a sharpie only affects the appearance, using staples in the manner above affects the construction quality.
As I said at the beginning of this conversation joining leather is an art and not everyone agrees on the best practice. Some methods however are universally frowned on and one of them is stapling leather pieces together. It's a very weak method UNLESS you happen to have a certain type of staples and a machine with enough pressure to embed those staples into the leather. Often staples will be used in no stress parts to be a quick binder for two ends of a loop.
In this image below this is a very bad way to use staples because the lid and handle of a case is a stress position. Eventually the staples weaken and that affects the integrity of the whole piece.
By contrast sewing the parts with a binder piece of goatskin as we do it here insures that the piece will retain its integrity for life.
This is what you want in a quality leather item, not household staples.
This is much more work but when you are considering spending hundreds of dollars on a case then you would want it to be built to last a lifetime. So don't be shy, ask your maker if he uses staples and then decide if you really want to go ahead and compromise for your money. Often you don't get to see under the hood so to speak when it comes to leather goods - but if you could then you might insist on the use of better methods.
Using common staples to put together leather pieces is about the same as using a sharpie to make points. Well actually worse because using a sharpie only affects the appearance, using staples in the manner above affects the construction quality.
Strength in joinery.
Now let's talk about leather and strength. Leather can be very strong and especially when it's not been subjected to use it can feel almost indestructable. But it is a skin and composed of fibers which are susceptible to drying out and getting brittle, developing cracks, and also stretching.
So one thing we do often is to not rely on one ply of leather. Instead we glue and sew two pieces together and put a piece of nylon between them to eliminate stretching.
These two lid pieces shown below consist of FOUR pieces of leather, two pieces of nylon and a plastic piece for the latch area. All this to insure that it does not move in the slightest during heavy use.
Now let's talk about leather and strength. Leather can be very strong and especially when it's not been subjected to use it can feel almost indestructable. But it is a skin and composed of fibers which are susceptible to drying out and getting brittle, developing cracks, and also stretching.
So one thing we do often is to not rely on one ply of leather. Instead we glue and sew two pieces together and put a piece of nylon between them to eliminate stretching.
These two lid pieces shown below consist of FOUR pieces of leather, two pieces of nylon and a plastic piece for the latch area. All this to insure that it does not move in the slightest during heavy use.
Fiber Board Backing.
My colleague Jack Justis asked me today in PM to explain why we use "paper" to back some of our parts.
Well, "paper", is used kind of negatively by Jack to derisively describe the material we do use for the backing. I think perhaps not having access to the wealth of suppliers in the shoe and bag industry that we do Jack might not be familiar with the materials used extensively in those industries.
The material we use is called cellulose fiber board. It's not paper. It can contain fibers made from wood, and of course we all know that paper is made from wood. This material however is specially made for the shoe and bag industry to offer a lightweight and moisture/mold resistant backing for the industry.
You own several products that use this material from your running shoes to your handbags, it is in so many products as to be uncountable.
We use it to form the backing for lighter weight leathers, to allow us to reinforce stress points and any other application we find where using it helps us to build a better cue case. We are not averse to borrowing materials and techniques from multi-billion dollar industries to make a better product.
These two photos are the front and back of hair-on-hide piece that is backed.
These two depict an oil tan leather that is not stiff enough to be used without being backed.
These are veg tan which doesn't need to be backed.
These are various leathers like nappa and python which would need to be backed.
Now, why would we use this as a backing material instead of leather. Well, number one is simply cost, leather is expensive to make and buy as you have already learned from the earlier discussion. So it's senseless to waste leather where a cheaper but equally good alternative is present. In fact this material is superior to leather as a backing material for a variety of reasons.
Those reasons are lower cost, lighter weight, and a huge range of options. This fiber board is available in dozens of thicknesses and compositions meaning that we can store a lot of those variations and always have just the right type of backing for whatever part we need to use it for. This allows us to really have an unlimited wealth of options in case building.
Looking through our portfolio here, www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html , you will see just a really wide variety of styles and unique construction methods that are often only made possible by the fact that we use this material.
Here is a short video by one of the leading brands of fiberboard. Notice all the major brands they work with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49XVc0MWLu0
www.bontex.com
For over 60 years this company has supplied global manufacturing with the innards that you don't even know are there but which provide the support and quality and durability you depend on.
I am always happy to explain to my colleagues why we use materials and methods. All of it leads to better cases for everyone.
If you have any more questions Jack please don't hesitate to ask me.
My colleague Jack Justis asked me today in PM to explain why we use "paper" to back some of our parts.
Well, "paper", is used kind of negatively by Jack to derisively describe the material we do use for the backing. I think perhaps not having access to the wealth of suppliers in the shoe and bag industry that we do Jack might not be familiar with the materials used extensively in those industries.
The material we use is called cellulose fiber board. It's not paper. It can contain fibers made from wood, and of course we all know that paper is made from wood. This material however is specially made for the shoe and bag industry to offer a lightweight and moisture/mold resistant backing for the industry.
You own several products that use this material from your running shoes to your handbags, it is in so many products as to be uncountable.
We use it to form the backing for lighter weight leathers, to allow us to reinforce stress points and any other application we find where using it helps us to build a better cue case. We are not averse to borrowing materials and techniques from multi-billion dollar industries to make a better product.
These two photos are the front and back of hair-on-hide piece that is backed.
These two depict an oil tan leather that is not stiff enough to be used without being backed.
These are veg tan which doesn't need to be backed.
These are various leathers like nappa and python which would need to be backed.
Now, why would we use this as a backing material instead of leather. Well, number one is simply cost, leather is expensive to make and buy as you have already learned from the earlier discussion. So it's senseless to waste leather where a cheaper but equally good alternative is present. In fact this material is superior to leather as a backing material for a variety of reasons.
Those reasons are lower cost, lighter weight, and a huge range of options. This fiber board is available in dozens of thicknesses and compositions meaning that we can store a lot of those variations and always have just the right type of backing for whatever part we need to use it for. This allows us to really have an unlimited wealth of options in case building.
Looking through our portfolio here, www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html , you will see just a really wide variety of styles and unique construction methods that are often only made possible by the fact that we use this material.
Here is a short video by one of the leading brands of fiberboard. Notice all the major brands they work with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49XVc0MWLu0
www.bontex.com
For over 60 years this company has supplied global manufacturing with the innards that you don't even know are there but which provide the support and quality and durability you depend on.
I am always happy to explain to my colleagues why we use materials and methods. All of it leads to better cases for everyone.
If you have any more questions Jack please don't hesitate to ask me.
This is by far the coolest thread on AZ that I have seen. VERY INFORMATIVE material here and I hope people aren't passing it up. John, thanks for taking the time to do this. It's very much appreciated. Keep the info coming.
Case repair
John
i a m interested in case repair. I have a j flowers case with bottom pocket zipper tha had broken after 2 years of usage. I am not asking you to fix it but what is the easiest way to have fixed here in california? Can point me in the right direction?
John
i a m interested in case repair. I have a j flowers case with bottom pocket zipper tha had broken after 2 years of usage. I am not asking you to fix it but what is the easiest way to have fixed here in california? Can point me in the right direction?
This is the easiest way to replace the sliders that I have found.
http://www.zlideon.eu.com/
Otherwise any good luggage repair shop should be able to do it.
I agree, pretty awesome to see the hi-tech.
Shrinkage
Another reason that a case maker might want to use backing is to control the movement of the leather.
Here is an example of a case done without backing where the leather has shrunk back to the point that there is about a half inch gap between the top of the tube and the edge of the body. You can clearly see the packing tape used to fix the fabric to the tube.
On this particular case, not our brand, the lid will not close without forcing it because of this shrinkage.
We not only back the leather but we also make sure it's fitted tightly to the body to reduce movement.
Another reason that a case maker might want to use backing is to control the movement of the leather.
Here is an example of a case done without backing where the leather has shrunk back to the point that there is about a half inch gap between the top of the tube and the edge of the body. You can clearly see the packing tape used to fix the fabric to the tube.
On this particular case, not our brand, the lid will not close without forcing it because of this shrinkage.
We not only back the leather but we also make sure it's fitted tightly to the body to reduce movement.
Attachments
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Just glue to secure the leather to the fiber board.
Are there any instances where you use other methods to attach the leather to the board?
Is there any situation where you might sew the leather and have to go thru both leather and fiber board? If so, then I take it that other than being durable, the Board is also flexible enuff to withstand a large sewing machine needle to pierce without splitting or shattering.
On thicker pieces of leather that are hand stitched, what type of awl do you use to make the holes. Or do you use different size hole punches.
Are there any instances where you use other methods to attach the leather to the board?
Is there any situation where you might sew the leather and have to go thru both leather and fiber board? If so, then I take it that other than being durable, the Board is also flexible enuff to withstand a large sewing machine needle to pierce without splitting or shattering.
On thicker pieces of leather that are hand stitched, what type of awl do you use to make the holes. Or do you use different size hole punches.