Are Systems Really Vital to Play Great Pool?

[JB Cases]

"Systems underlie every phenomenon, and are everywhere one looks for them. They are limited only by the observer’s capacity to comprehend the complexity of the observed entity, item or phenomenon."

According to this definition we can only see systems if we're willing to look for them.

Does this mean if you're not willing to look for the systems in pool they are, in effect, invisible? Maybe this is why some players can't see what's been right in front of their eyes all along.....hmmmm, this certainly does make sense, doesn't it?

I do not think that a formal named system of any kind is vital to playing great pool. I firmly believe that you could lock yourself into a room with a table and figure out everything that is possible on a pool table and train yourself to execute it perfectly.

I do believe that you would probably make some discoveries while doing that which would lead to you viewing the shots systematically/automatically rather than consciously choosing what to do on each shot.

I think that any time you are given knowledge then you have been given a shortcut because that is something you don't have to discover on your own. You can then skip right to testing out that knowledge and building on it.

That's why we as a species thrive. By copying each other and innovating on those copies. It's why Shane Van Boening, when asked why he does a certain thing says, "I just do it because Bustamante did it." And then goes on to put 40 hours of practice on top of it to insure that he can do it every time.

 

[lfigueroa]

Ha, Ha, Ha, nice one.

I think it is one, Im just not sure what you would do with it if you had it but thats my opinion.

It could be like a pet that you walk around the block once in a while?

Just think of the stares you'd get when you called its name

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Systems are always there for those that are willing to look. If you're not willing to look maybe you can ask for willingness and someday it will be given to you. Until then simply "be willing to be willing to be willing to look". 'The Game is the Teacher'

Sometimes. Not always. Same reason some folks believe in astrology, but shouldn't

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

It is even a greater mistake to deny the existence of effective systems that ate there and do work. I watched your match with JB. You are a very systematic player. The fact that you obviously have issues with Stan and/or CTE is your choice. To continuously badmouth a system proven by many high level players to be bona fide speaks volumes about your own petty nature.

I is a very systematic player, but what you saw was my PSR of the moment. My PSR today is not the same.

And you are making a huge (and mistaken) presumption by asserting I am speaking of any particular system. But that would be par for the course and the holy rollers out there

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

And before anyone gets carried away remember that the topic is: are systems vital?

Lou Figueroa

 

[dom_poppa]

It is human nature to look for connections, look for patterns, look for explanations. It's what we do. But it doesn't mean they're always there and it would be a huge mistake to try and find a system where none exists. (Even if you give a cute name or its own set of initials

Lou Figueroa

Basically this. Lou said it best.

I apologize to others for my lack of better words.

 

[CJ Wiley]

We weren't put on this planet to play pool, so it's a very unnatural thing to do

Yes, I agree that "formal named systems" are not required.

I hope you don't "firmly" believe that too much, John, what you're saying isn't possible as a human being - there are inner, and outer factors that prohibit this from being true.
Even as a child prodigy I had to learn a lot from Buddy Hall (and a host of other players, some champions, some not) - I'm not the exception, I'm the "sample example". Shane, Sigel, Earl, and Johnny Archer will certainly verify my statement.

We weren't put on this planet to play pool, so it's a very unnatural thing to do with the human body. To play it in an exceptional manner it takes modeling techniques and systems that other players do (either naturally or systematically) and build you own style accordingly.

Am I saying it's impossible to play championship speed without championship assistance? Yes, I most certainly am, and there's not any exceptions to that in histor, nor will there be.

I do not think that a formal named system of any kind is vital to playing great pool. I firmly believe that you could lock yourself into a room with a table and figure out everything that is possible on a pool table and train yourself to execute it perfectly.

I do believe that you would probably make some discoveries while doing that which would lead to you viewing the shots systematically/automatically rather than consciously choosing what to do on each shot.

I think that any time you are given knowledge then you have been given a shortcut because that is something you don't have to discover on your own. You can then skip right to testing out that knowledge and building on it.

That's why we as a species thrive. By copying each other and innovating on those copies. It's why Shane Van Boening, when asked why he does a certain thing says, "I just do it because Bustamante did it." And then goes on to put 40 hours of practice on top of it to insure that he can do it every time.

 

[dom_poppa]

Yes, I agree that "formal named systems" are not required.

I hope you don't "firmly" believe that too much, John, what you're saying isn't possible as a human being - there are inner, and outer factors that prohibit this from being true.
Even as a child prodigy I had to learn a lot from Buddy Hall (and a host of other players, some champions, some not) - I'm not the exception, I'm the "sample example". Shane, Sigel, Earl, and Johnny Archer will certainly verify my statement.

We weren't put on this planet to play pool, so it's a very unnatural thing to do with the human body. To play it in an exceptional manner it takes modeling techniques and systems that other players do (either naturally or systematically) and build you own style accordingly.

Am I saying it's impossible to play championship speed without championship assistance? Yes, I most certainly am, and there's not any exceptions to that in histor, nor will there be.

You play at your level because you are talented and you were a prodigy or natural at it. Over years you just added to your arsenal.

Lets be honest, if you didn't have your talent, would you be as good as you are by reading a self-help book on how to play pool?

I see it too many times, with the new guys joining money leagues. They can't hold a pool stick and they tell me they read how-to-play-pool book every night. Still no improvement.

What I meant to say, pool is a game you learn through trial and error. It is a game of repetition. The more you play and the more you minimize your mistakes, the better you will be at it. If what I mentioned is a "system" then fine. I call it fundamentals and practice.

...but a self-help (insert) fancy name system isn't going to help a beginner but will definitely ADD to an advance player's game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"An amateur will practice until they can do it right, and a professional will......

And before anyone gets carried away remember that the topic is: are systems vital?

Lou Figueroa

A system is even vital to chalk your cue effectively, rack the balls consistently, and yes, even type a private email properly.

The difference between an amateur's systems and professional's systems is:

"An amateur will practice until they can do it right, and a professional will practice until they can't do it wrong" - this is because the object of the game is to develop "pressure proof" systems........so you can perform consistently time after time, day after day. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

The unfortunate, attractive, female that goes into a pool room is attacked by........

Would I be as good as I am by just reading a "self help book" on pool? Do I really have to answer that?

There's a LOT of "miss" information in the pool rooms, bars, and leagues about pool. I'd say most of the information is flat out wrong....they advocate "loose grips," "long follow throughs," and a warehouse of other things that are misleading at best and drive potential players off at times out of sheer frustration.

I've personally seen and talked to MANY players that were about to quit because of the "wisdom of the pool rooms"......don't get me wrong, it's just as bad at the golf courses, and tennis courts at times.....especially for women.

The unfortunate, attractive, female that goes into a pool room is going to be attacked by the "well intentioned" male trying to "help her game"....mean while they're filling her head full of garbley gook, or some kind of useless information.

Such is life, maybe this will change someday, let's hope so.....'The Game is the Teacher'

You play at your level because you are talented and you were a prodigy or natural at it. Over years you just added to your arsenal.

Lets be honest, if you didn't have your talent, would you be as good as you are by reading a self-help book on how to play pool?

I see it too many times, with the new guys joining money leagues. They can't hold a pool stick and they tell me they read how-to-play-pool book every night. Still no improvement.

What I meant to say, pool is a game you learn through trial and error. It is a game of repetition. The more you play and the more you minimize your mistakes, the better you will be at it. If what I mentioned is a "system" then fine. I call it fundamentals and practice.

...but a self-help (insert) fancy name system isn't going to help a beginner but will definitely ADD to an advance player's game.

 

[bwally]

So the question begs, is the information wrong or is it the way it is communicated? TBH it could be both. I played and taught golf professionally and I used to cringe at some of the things I heard similar to the scenario you described below.

And yes I have been using CTE for the past few months and love it. But I am hopeless at showing others how to use it. Therefore I stay away from doing that.

And please no turning this thread into a CTE "bashathon"

Cheers
B

Would I be as good as I am by just reading a "self help book" on pool? Do I really have to answer that?

There's a LOT of "miss" information in the pool rooms, bars, and leagues about pool. I'd say most of the information is flat out wrong....they advocate "loose grips," "long follow throughs," and a warehouse of other things that are misleading at best and drive potential players off at times out of sheer frustration.

I've personally seen and talked to MANY players that were about to quit because of the "wisdom of the pool rooms"......don't get me wrong, it's just as bad at the golf courses, and tennis courts at times.....especially for women.

The unfortunate, attractive, female that goes into a pool room is going to be attacked by the "well intentioned" male trying to "help her game"....mean while they're filling her head full of garbley gook, or some kind of useless information.

Such is life, maybe this will change someday, let's hope so.....'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[336Robin]

Systems are Vital

And before anyone gets carried away remember that the topic is: are systems vital?

Lou Figueroa

I think they are if they include the whole of the game. When I say the whole Im talking about the pocket, the object ball and the contact point. The vitality is proven when a system connects all of those things and enables a player to understand allowances that are to be made with spin.

Of course if someone asks a great player and how he does what he does and he says something like "I use the edge of the ball to tell me what to do," that means something to him but not to the mediocre player who wants to know what to look at in order to see where he needs to go.

But..if there is an example/ system that gets the player closer and you say...look at this and keeping looking for this and you will begin to understand what I see when I shoot shots......that is a little more concrete and at least the newbie has something to go on and the system in question is given more vitality.

I don't know of such a statement being made by any well known player about any of the known systems which puts the vitality of the ones we know about in question.

 

[bwally]

Systems are part of everybody's daily life. Everything from brushing your teeth, driving your car, when you learned your "ABC's and multiplication tables as a kid. How about typing? The best typers probably can't even tell you where each key is, but I assure you that wasn't the case when they started.The point is that you use these systems repeatedly until it becomes an "over learned" skill. Meaning you don't have to consciously think about them anymore. If you don't believe me try to brush your teeth with your opposite hand I don't see why playing pool should be any different...

Cheers

 

[HawaiianEye]

Almost without exception, everything we do is a "system" in itself, or part of an even bigger system.

I agree with CJ.

I think it is wise to keep an open mind when learning anything and pool is no exception. If you can learn and experiment with a variety of different "systems", you will utilize the pieces of it that you can and discard the pieces you cant.

You have then devised your "own system", based upon trial and error.

Nobody says a system is the ONLY way a particular thing can be done, but it makes for great starting points or reference points in order to compare other theories that may or may not be better.

 

[Banks]

If you ever run into an artist or musician, ask them what system they use that's necessary to perform.

In the meantime, does anybody have a system I can study to drive home after work? I have a pretty good idea of the way, I just need to know how to make the car go there.

Maybe on a future podcast, Efren can explain the system he learned when he was a hungry little kid. My guess is that it was the PIITH system.

 

[JB Cases]

Yes, I agree that "formal named systems" are not required.

I hope you don't "firmly" believe that too much, John, what you're saying isn't possible as a human being - there are inner, and outer factors that prohibit this from being true.
Even as a child prodigy I had to learn a lot from Buddy Hall (and a host of other players, some champions, some not) - I'm not the exception, I'm the "sample example". Shane, Sigel, Earl, and Johnny Archer will certainly verify my statement.

We weren't put on this planet to play pool, so it's a very unnatural thing to do with the human body. To play it in an exceptional manner it takes modeling techniques and systems that other players do (either naturally or systematically) and build you own style accordingly.

Am I saying it's impossible to play championship speed without championship assistance? Yes, I most certainly am, and there's not any exceptions to that in histor, nor will there be.

I will defer to your experience since you are speaking from a champion's perspective while I obviously am not.

I am just mainly speaking theoretically.

Did you know that Walter Lindrum was only allowed to use one ball for the first three years of his billiards training? He had to learn to lag that one ball to any spot on the table precisely before his father would allow him a second ball. This is not the best example because Walter's father and older brother were already billiards champions but it does illustrate I think the levels that one can go to that most people don't even consider.

You know I am an advocate of systems and knowledge and patterns.

One pocket is a game where good things can happen if you consistently play the balls in certain patterns, such as tickies toward the pocket. It's very difficult to actually practice all the possibilites in a pool room setting but I could imagine a person spending months practicing nothing but until they got so consistent at figuring out the patterns that they would be freakishly good at that type of shot.

And in fact when good 3 cushion players play one pocket you can see how they apply that knowledge to the game to a great advantage.

I am in full agreement you in the practical sense that champions breed champions. I also think it's possible for an average player to be an above average coach. The great boxers generally didn't have champions training them.

In a theoretical sense though I do "firmly" believe that at least for the task of clearing the table it should be possible for a person of reasonable intelligence and adequate physical ability to learn all he needs to learn to run out any table according to the rules if given enough table time and sufficiently motivated. Like with a shock collar

 

[duckie]

Consider this......Does a race car driver use a system to go fast?

Yes, the car is a system, put what system does a driver, in his head, go fast?

Or does his fast come from seat time, experience of being on the track in the heat of battle? What system can out do instincts from the doing?

 

[BeiberLvr]

Consider this......Does a race car driver use a system to go fast?

Yes, the car is a system, put what system does a driver, in his head, go fast?

Or does his fast come from seat time, experience of being on the track in the heat of battle? What system can out do instincts from the doing?

For someone that hates when pool is compared to other sports, i.e golf.

You sure do like comparing it to something that has zero to do with pool.

 

[jburkm002]

Stupid thread. Now brushing your teeth is a system. Everything is a system. Seriously. To zen for me.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[lfigueroa]

A system is even vital to chalk your cue effectively, rack the balls consistently, and yes, even type a private email properly.

The difference between an amateur's systems and professional's systems is:

"An amateur will practice until they can do it right, and a professional will practice until they can't do it wrong" - this is because the object of the game is to develop "pressure proof" systems........so you can perform consistently time after time, day after day. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Then you are just calling every thing a system, which is kinda silly. And all the fortune cookies in the world will not change that

Lou Figueroa