IIRC this is an aiming method diagramed in Winning Pocket Billiards. We of course have no direct quote from Willie as to how he aimed unless it's from his instructional tapes.
Are Systems Really Vital to Play Great Pool?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
IIRC this is an aiming method diagramed in Winning Pocket Billiards. We of course have no direct quote from Willie as to how he aimed unless it's from his instructional tapes.
If I teach a beginner -- and that was the audience for Mosconi's red and blue books -- how to use ghost ball or parallel track or railroad or any other, it does not mean I use it. It's just something to help the beginner out.
Lou Figueroa
Clearly. No where did I say that Mosconi used it. Doesn't matter anyway because you once said you wouldn't pay attention to Mosconi's personal testimonial anyway if it disagreed with your position.
I originally asked Palmerfan for the reference since he is the one who said Mosconi used parallel aiming and then you butted in. Never said you said it.
Lou Figueroa
You're really good today at reading a thread and seeing timestamps. Let me give you a heads up on how a forum works, it's not just a conversation between two people. Anyone can jump in with relevant INFORMATION.
Maybe Palmerfan has a testimonial that he will share with us. I shared what I know, of both the origin of the tie between Mosconi and the parallel aiming system and how little regard you have for what Mosconi would say about how he played.
Some vital systems for playing pool: nervous, respiratory, circulatory
oh, I understand how a discussion forum works. (really
But you said, "No where did I say that Mosconi used it." I was just explaining that I was aware of that and the genesis of my question. Now go pick a fight with another case maker or something.Lou Figueroa
That's a different kind of system and it illustrates the problem with making the definition too broad.
It's be nice if someone would come up with a reasonable definition of "system" as it applies to pool. If it's going to be everything to include your "system" for screwing your pool cue together then this is all pretty silly.
Lou Figueroa
I like to turn the shaft and butt simultaneously in opposite directions.
Not to derail, but if my grip is too firm wont that cause the path of my follow through to not be as fluent or accurate vs a loose grip on most (but not all) shots?
Also I guess maybe we need to define long follow through...can you elaborate?
Getting back on topic (without touching the word system) I believe everyone's' definition of the phrase great pool will be different making this a difficult topic to debate. Is great pool only pros? Semi pros/shortstops? APA 7s in 8 ball, 9s in 9 ball? I don't think there is going to be an agreement here on this phrase so this may be tough to define.
I personally use "feel" when I shoot...possibly a subconscious ghost ball on occasion. For some reason I can visually see every angle before I shoot cut shots. This doesn't mean I will always make it, but I always see it (in my mind). I just find it hard to believe if I adopt a so called aiming system that I could get better than my current ability (APA 7 in 8 ball). Would it get better 1 ball, or 2 balls...possibly and it's hard to knock it until you try it but just don't see how much better I could get. I believe everyone has a plateau on their ability wherever that level may be...I just think I am pretty much there and don't see how doing a whole brand new system will help more than my current ability...just an opinion though and yes I always try to listen and read with an open mind about them.
You know Lou would argue with any answer so here is a source he cannot argue with unless Lou decides to argue with Lou.
"On my book shelf I have a complete set of the late Walt Harris' "Billiard Atlas of Systems and Techniques." In those books are over 800 pages of huge steaming piles of "systems." And, what makes those books even more valuable is that the author differentiates between system and technique."
Lou Figueroa
Not to derail, but if my grip is too firm wont that cause the path of my follow through to not be as fluent or accurate vs a loose grip on most (but not all) shots?
Also I guess maybe we need to define long follow through...can you elaborate?
Getting back on topic (without touching the word system) I believe everyone's' definition of the phrase great pool will be different making this a difficult topic to debate. Is great pool only pros? Semi pros/shortstops? APA 7s in 8 ball, 9s in 9 ball? I don't think there is going to be an agreement here on this phrase so this may be tough to define.
I personally use "feel" when I shoot...possibly a subconscious ghost ball on occasion. For some reason I can visually see every angle before I shoot cut shots. This doesn't mean I will always make it, but I always see it (in my mind). I just find it hard to believe if I adopt a so called aiming system that I could get better than my current ability (APA 7 in 8 ball). Would it get better 1 ball, or 2 balls...possibly and it's hard to knock it until you try it but just don't see how much better I could get. I believe everyone has a plateau on their ability wherever that level may be...I just think I am pretty much there and don't see how doing a whole brand new system will help more than my current ability...just an opinion though and yes I always try to listen and read with an open mind about them.
Simp, I just think some folks, such as yourself, have the ability to visualize better than others. I shoot the same way and can see the angle too. And when I'm playing my best I can also see the path the CB will take after pocketing the ball. If you can do that why would you need a "system?"
Lou Figueroa
Not to derail, but if my grip is too firm wont that cause the path of my follow through to not be as fluent or accurate vs a loose grip on most (but not all) shots?
Also I guess maybe we need to define long follow through...can you elaborate?
Getting back on topic (without touching the word system) I believe everyone's' definition of the phrase great pool will be different making this a difficult topic to debate. Is great pool only pros? Semi pros/shortstops? APA 7s in 8 ball, 9s in 9 ball? I don't think there is going to be an agreement here on this phrase so this may be tough to define.
I personally use "feel" when I shoot...possibly a subconscious ghost ball on occasion. For some reason I can visually see every angle before I shoot cut shots. This doesn't mean I will always make it, but I always see it (in my mind). I just find it hard to believe if I adopt a so called aiming system that I could get better than my current ability (APA 7 in 8 ball). Would it get better 1 ball, or 2 balls...possibly and it's hard to knock it until you try it but just don't see how much better I could get. I believe everyone has a plateau on their ability wherever that level may be...I just think I am pretty much there and don't see how doing a whole brand new system will help more than my current ability...just an opinion though and yes I always try to listen and read with an open mind about them.
Grip Pressure? Maybe for you and many on here. Not for me. I can shoot fine with a loose grip or a firmer grip; but my stroke will break down with the loose grip faster than if I have some tension in my forearm...not a "death grip" by any means, but just firm enough to be able to lift the cue off my bridge hand. It holds up all day long, always hits the CB where I want (well, usually) and gives me maximum feel and CB control. The mechanics of a stroke rely on a lot of factors; if taken in sum total and they work perfectly together, why obsess over one part (grip pressure)? Conventional wisdom is just conventional...not necessarily wise. Ever seen Mike Davis play? "Conventional Wisdom" says his stroke is wrong on so many levels it's a wonder he can run two balls...but man, that scooping, elbow-dropping, feet spread 4 feet wide, bridge arm hyperextended mechanics work perfect--for him. Ask him, he'll tell you he developed that technique for a reason, long after he was playing high level pool. He found a "system" for his mechanics that worked better for him.
The acceleration you achieve IMMEDIATELY at the moment of contact
The cue ball is the primary target for you physically, you contact it directly with the tip. This "cue ball target" must be hit precisely and accurately to get consistent results. The acceleration you achieve IMMEDIATELY at the moment of contact is most likely what separates the advanced player from the champion player.
Think in terms of throwing a dart accurately when it comes to follow through. Ideally you just want to bring your right hand back (if right handed) and return it EXACTLY where it started (when the tip was exactly behind your cue ball target) with an accelerated delivery.
The follow through will happen, but in most cases will be less than your backswing. Don't be fooled by players "extending their follow through," I used to do this to throw opponents off their games........just watch the immediate action at contact to see what I'm referring to.
The cue ball is the primary target for you physically, you contact it directly with the tip. This "cue ball target" must be hit precisely and accurately to get consistent results. The acceleration you achieve IMMEDIATELY at the moment of contact is most likely what separates the advanced player from the champion player.
Think in terms of throwing a dart accurately when it comes to follow through. Ideally you just want to bring your right hand back (if right handed) and return it EXACTLY where it started (when the tip was exactly behind your cue ball target) with an accelerated delivery.
The follow through will happen, but in most cases will be less than your backswing. Don't be fooled by players "extending their follow through," I used to do this to throw opponents off their games........just watch the immediate action at contact to see what I'm referring to.
Not to derail, but if my grip is too firm wont that cause the path of my follow through to not be as fluent or accurate vs a loose grip on most (but not all) shots?
Also I guess maybe we need to define long follow through...can you elaborate?
Getting back on topic (without touching the word system) I believe everyone's' definition of the phrase great pool will be different making this a difficult topic to debate. Is great pool only pros? Semi pros/shortstops? APA 7s in 8 ball, 9s in 9 ball? I don't think there is going to be an agreement here on this phrase so this may be tough to define.
I personally use "feel" when I shoot...possibly a subconscious ghost ball on occasion. For some reason I can visually see every angle before I shoot cut shots. This doesn't mean I will always make it, but I always see it (in my mind). I just find it hard to believe if I adopt a so called aiming system that I could get better than my current ability (APA 7 in 8 ball). Would it get better 1 ball, or 2 balls...possibly and it's hard to knock it until you try it but just don't see how much better I could get. I believe everyone has a plateau on their ability wherever that level may be...I just think I am pretty much there and don't see how doing a whole brand new system will help more than my current ability...just an opinion though and yes I always try to listen and read with an open mind about them.
The human body regarded as a functional physiological unit.
We're not talking about just "aiming systems" in this thread.
sys·tem (sĭs′təm)
n.
1. A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.
2. A functionally related group of elements, especially:
a. The human body regarded as a functional physiological unit.
b. An organism as a whole, especially with regard to its vital processes or functions.
c. A group of physiologically or anatomically complementary organs or parts: the nervous system; the skeletal system.
We're not talking about just "aiming systems" in this thread.
sys·tem (sĭs′təm)
n.
1. A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.
2. A functionally related group of elements, especially:
a. The human body regarded as a functional physiological unit.
b. An organism as a whole, especially with regard to its vital processes or functions.
c. A group of physiologically or anatomically complementary organs or parts: the nervous system; the skeletal system.
Just wanted to point out this can be done with an extremely loose grip as well.
"The knowledge and skill you have achieved are meant to be "forgotten" so you can float comfortably in emptiness, without obstruction. Learning is important but do not become its slave. Above all, do not harbor anything external and superfluous-the mind is primary. Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it"
"Set patterns, incapable of adaptability, of pliability, only offer a better cage. Truth is outside all patterns"
"Accumulation of forms, just one more modification of conditioning, becomes a anchor that holds and ties down; it leads only one way-down"
A few quotes from Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee.
Could it be that systems prevent one from playing their best?
So I answer no, that systems are not vital to playing great pool, but practice is., ie hit a million balls and this is training not a system. Big difference.
For example...last night I played in a local handicapp 14.1 league for the first time in a few years. I still was on the list with a handicapp. Using that past handicapp, the match was 50-80, me 50. I won, the final score was me 50-him 27 and he would not have gotten that but I dogged a few shots from nerves.
No system made that improvement, not using contact patch principle of ghost ball, but focus practiced did. Hours of it.
And this is what really pisses me off about those that still push any system as the way to play your best. This is not the truth.
Oh.....my handicapp is getting a big bump......which is what I want....which is why I practice....to get better than anyone else and NO SYSTEM CAN DO THIS for anyone PERIOD.
"Set patterns, incapable of adaptability, of pliability, only offer a better cage. Truth is outside all patterns"
"Accumulation of forms, just one more modification of conditioning, becomes a anchor that holds and ties down; it leads only one way-down"
A few quotes from Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee.
Could it be that systems prevent one from playing their best?
So I answer no, that systems are not vital to playing great pool, but practice is., ie hit a million balls and this is training not a system. Big difference.
For example...last night I played in a local handicapp 14.1 league for the first time in a few years. I still was on the list with a handicapp. Using that past handicapp, the match was 50-80, me 50. I won, the final score was me 50-him 27 and he would not have gotten that but I dogged a few shots from nerves.
No system made that improvement, not using contact patch principle of ghost ball, but focus practiced did. Hours of it.
And this is what really pisses me off about those that still push any system as the way to play your best. This is not the truth.
Oh.....my handicapp is getting a big bump......which is what I want....which is why I practice....to get better than anyone else and NO SYSTEM CAN DO THIS for anyone PERIOD.
I agree with you, I think? :scratchhead:
I don't recall saying we were just talking about aiming systems or that we were even talking about them in the first place. My point, to repeat, is that it is problematic when too broad a definition is used, particularly when a word has been used in a specific way by a sub-culture such as ours, for a century or more. In the case of pool, "system" has usually been used, to quote Mike Shamos, "A method of aiming shots, often based on the diamonds..." More recently of course we have other systems, some of which really aren't.
Lou Figueroa
according to CJ
used a "system"
to type this post