sandbagging ?

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
it is with some trepidation that i am starting this thread. i really don't want to turn this into an apa bashing thread . i happen to like apa and recently started a thread praising my apa lo.

i guess i just want to vent about a couple of guys who i thought were sandbagging and now i have stats to pretty much prove it and want your thoughts as to if you agree.

as i was looking at napa stats for the 2 divisions i play and 1 2 others that i do not play in i came across a few stats that really stood out.

the following stats are on players that i have known and played against for at least 3 years in apa and 2 years in napa.

there are 2 that bother me.

player a is an apa 5 with a 75% win record last session and still a 5 in the new session that just started. his napa s/l is an 81 and is ranked 17th in points

player b is an apa 5 with a 46% win record last session. his napa s/l is a 73 and is ranked 28th in points. oh yea he has a 14-1 win record this year in napa so far.

now you take me ...an apa 5 and a s/l 56 in napa. ranked 57th in points

another apa 5 with a napa s/l 49 and ranked 69

another apa 5 with a napa s/l 48 and ranked 71.

i am a lil ahead of these other 2-5's but i don't think its too far out of line..

you may think ok ...they are a lot better than the rest of you 5's...no big deal.

well let me throw a couple of more players in the mix.

all below are apa 7's

napa s/l 73 and ranked 33rd

napa s/l 72 and ranked 31st

napa s/l 69 and ranked 36th.

player a is a higher handicap than any of the apa 7's and is ranked way higher in points.

player b is evenly handicapped with the highest apa 7 and is ranked higher in points than any of the 7's.

comparing those 2-5's to 7's really raised my eyebrows.

what do you guys think ? and please don't start bashing the entire organization over a question of do you think these 2 players are manipulating the system.
 
lorider said:
it is with some trepidation that i am starting this thread. i really don't want to turn this into an apa bashing thread . i happen to like apa and recently started a thread praising my apa lo.

i guess i just want to vent about a couple of guys who i thought were sandbagging and now i have stats to pretty much prove it and want your thoughts as to if you agree.

as i was looking at napa stats for the 2 divisions i play and 1 2 others that i do not play in i came across a few stats that really stood out.

the following stats are on players that i have known and played against for at least 3 years in apa and 2 years in napa.

there are 2 that bother me.

player a is an apa 5 with a 75% win record last session and still a 5 in the new session that just started. his napa s/l is an 81 and is ranked 17th in points

player b is an apa 5 with a 46% win record last session. his napa s/l is a 73 and is ranked 28th in points. oh yea he has a 14-1 win record this year in napa so far.

now you take me ...an apa 5 and a s/l 56 in napa. ranked 57th in points

another apa 5 with a napa s/l 49 and ranked 69

another apa 5 with a napa s/l 48 and ranked 71.

i am a lil ahead of these other 2-5's but i don't think its too far out of line..

you may think ok ...they are a lot better than the rest of you 5's...no big deal.

well let me throw a couple of more players in the mix.

all below are apa 7's

napa s/l 73 and ranked 33rd

napa s/l 72 and ranked 31st

napa s/l 69 and ranked 36th.

player a is a higher handicap than any of the apa 7's and is ranked way higher in points.

player b is evenly handicapped with the highest apa 7 and is ranked higher in points than any of the 7's.

comparing those 2-5's to 7's really raised my eyebrows.

what do you guys think ? and please don't start bashing the entire organization over a question of do you think these 2 players are manipulating the system.
Click to expand...

Thou doth protest too much.....Stop worrying about other peoples handicaps and just beat them.

It's difficult to compare handicaps in one league to another. There are often different players playing in other leagues and the handicap systems work differently. The best you can do is forget about the handicaps and just focus on how you play. If you are the better player you will win more often. If you're losing, there's room for you to improve. If you're winning too much, play tougher players.

Since NAPA raises your handicap a few points with every win. If you start as a 50 and win 10 straight matches you may be somewhere in the area of 80-90 in skill level. If you start as a 50 and lose 10 you'll go down as well. It's more complex than that I would imagine but in general a win gets you 3-4 more skill points.
 
lorider said:
it is with some trepidation that i am starting this thread. i really don't want to turn this into an apa bashing thread . i happen to like apa and recently started a thread praising my apa lo.

i guess i just want to vent about a couple of guys who i thought were sandbagging and now i have stats to pretty much prove it and want your thoughts as to if you agree.

as i was looking at napa stats for the 2 divisions i play and 1 2 others that i do not play in i came across a few stats that really stood out.

the following stats are on players that i have known and played against for at least 3 years in apa and 2 years in napa.

there are 2 that bother me.

player a is an apa 5 with a 75% win record last session and still a 5 in the new session that just started. his napa s/l is an 81 and is ranked 17th in points

player b is an apa 5 with a 46% win record last session. his napa s/l is a 73 and is ranked 28th in points. oh yea he has a 14-1 win record this year in napa so far.

now you take me ...an apa 5 and a s/l 56 in napa. ranked 57th in points

another apa 5 with a napa s/l 49 and ranked 69

another apa 5 with a napa s/l 48 and ranked 71.

i am a lil ahead of these other 2-5's but i don't think its too far out of line..

you may think ok ...they are a lot better than the rest of you 5's...no big deal.

well let me throw a couple of more players in the mix.

all below are apa 7's

napa s/l 73 and ranked 33rd

napa s/l 72 and ranked 31st

napa s/l 69 and ranked 36th.

player a is a higher handicap than any of the apa 7's and is ranked way higher in points.

player b is evenly handicapped with the highest apa 7 and is ranked higher in points than any of the 7's.

comparing those 2-5's to 7's really raised my eyebrows.

what do you guys think ? and please don't start bashing the entire organization over a question of do you think these 2 players are manipulating the system.
Click to expand...

unfortunatley if the said players don't sandbag, and Ive experienced this personally, alot of teams would be thrown out of wack do to the point system and all that stuff, I havent played the apa in years, but a group of friends that want ot stay in the same team are going to manipulate it. my advice is, get better and sandbag urself, I know you want to play fair, and youre right, but in reality its not truly possible. just have to deal with it.
 
dr9ball said:
Thou doth protest too much.....Stop worrying about other peoples handicaps and just beat them.

It's difficult to compare handicaps in one league to another. There are often different players playing in other leagues and the handicap systems work differently. The best you can do is forget about the handicaps and just focus on how you play. If you are the better player you will win more often. If you're losing, there's room for you to improve. If you're winning too much, play tougher players.

Since NAPA raises your handicap a few points with every win. If you start as a 50 and win 10 straight matches you may be somewhere in the area of 80-90 in skill level. If you start as a 50 and lose 10 you'll go down as well. It's more complex than that I would imagine but in general a win gets you 3-4 more skill points.
Click to expand...

not a protest...its a question.

good advice about not worrying about it and just beat them.:thumbup:

from my understanding ..points awarded are based on the out come of the match and the race and maybe a rackless or not ?

almost every time i win or lose its adjusted by 1 point . there was a time i beat an 85 by 3-2 and went up 2 points.:grin-square:
 
Sandbagging happens in all leagues. My team made it to the MD regionals & we had a really good lesson in sandbagging. We routinely watched some "3's" on certain teams smoke the hell of of 6's & 7's. I'm not talking lucky shots here but seriously out playing them at every level of the game. It happens & always will.
 
People join leagues to play with their friends. Leagues are set up to break up teams that become too strong and they believe splitting the strong teams up into more teams = more revenue. There isn't really 50 options for players that get better over time and still want to play with their friends.
 
Ask yourself honestly, are they sand bagging, or did they just happen to fall through the cracks? They seem to have a pretty good win percentage so it would be difficult to say they are actually sand bagging. The one thing that the APA S/L rating system does is it prohibits you from padding your innings on the winning side.
Maybe the are, maybe not, who can say for sure. I wouldn't concern myself with it, it is what it is.
Just play, take care of you and your players, the rest will work itself out and take care of itself.
Now, rub some dirt on it, get back out there, and kick their asses
 
XmarathonX said:
Sandbagging happens in all leagues. My team made it to the MD regionals & we had a really good lesson in sandbagging. We routinely watched some "3's" on certain teams smoke the hell of of 6's & 7's. I'm not talking lucky shots here but seriously out playing them at every level of the game. It happens & always will.
Click to expand...

nothing like regionals or nationals to bring out the best in people.:D

got a story about a 3 last year in vegas. ...my 1st time there btw.

i am a 5 and faced another 5 in my st match. i won 38-4

2nd match i face another 5 and win 38-7

3rd match i face a 7. i am down 18-0 before i ever get to the table. from then on i matched him point for point. me 36 and him 37 when he reaches his required 55. . i lost by 2 points after being down 18-0 against a 7.

that tells you i was playing pretty good. i am pretty sure my opponents thought i was a sandbagger also. i had the opposing captain of my 2nd match tell me he had been a captain in apa for 17 years and had never seen a 5 as good as me.

4th match i play a 3. i lost 25-23. i could not do nothing with him lol. i have only been in apa for 3 years but i have never seen a 3 as good as him lol.
 
APA 7 on a bad day is still a 7, but might play worse than a 5
APA 7 on a slump, still a 7, but might play worse than a 4

APA 5 on a great day, in stroke and all, will beat APA 7, especially in short race.
 
There are a few people here that I suspect are trying to manipulate the system. I wonder to what end, since none of our teams here ever advance to nationals anyway.

If I can't play trying to win, whats the point? Padding your innings while doing so, OK, maybe it'll help, maybe it won't, but it seems like an awful lot of extra work for something you can't really control anyway. And any time you give your opponent an extra time at the table, you risk losing, so why risk it at all? To me, the point is to win.

Fortunately, the guys on my team are pretty much all on board with this philosophy: "If we eventually go up to the point where we can't field the team, we'll figure out something else, and be happy that we've improved."

If people want to spend their pool playing time trying to manipulate the system, I feel sorry for them. If its blatant and malicious, I'll probably try and let the LO in on it, beyond that, again, too much work for something we're supposed to be having fun at.
 
APA 5 but NAPA 81 raises an eyebrow but without watching them play it's impossible to say anything definite.
 
I suspect most ranking system are good. It's human manipulation that makes a good system fail. It's also the team captains responsibility to have their players ranked properly. It's also their responsibility to write up players they feel are not ranked properly on the opposing team. Chances are a player that sandbags has matches where they can't lay back. They also have matches they can lay back. So it kinda evens out. Everyone blames the league. However chances are if a player played 20 matches with however many team captains. They may have never been written up. So is it the system or the team captains that fails. You can't expect a league operator or reps to be able to watch and know everyone's rankings.

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I have suggested this before. On some leagues you rate the other team on their sportsmanship. I don't know why there can't be either on the score sheet or a separate sheet where you rate each player. All you have to do is put the name and whether you thought the shot below, at or above their skill level. The other team doesn't have to see how you rated their players. This way every player is rated each week by their peers. So now the league will have more than numbers to go by. They have a quick evaluation every time a player plays that the numbers don't show.

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Personally, I kinda like it when other teams accuse us of sand bagging. It means a couple of things to me, first that we're playing well and at least a little above our normal level, and second, that on this occasion we really don't have to play that well to win because these other people are concerning themselves with things out of their control. When they do that it's not terribly likely that they would win anyways. It usually means we're having a good time and it's reflected in our play. I know the folks I play with want to win and have far to much pride to ever try to sand bag, but it's great when someone tells one of our 3's that they should be a 5. It cracks me up.
 
Well someone shouldn't tell you your 3 plays like a 5. However if they thought they shot well above their average. They should write them up. Doesn't make them jerks. They may only see your 3 play once a session. It's what they should do but no they should accuse anyone of sandbagging. We are all capable of shooting over our skill level at times. May I ask what's the furthest you have ever went in league. The further you go the tougher it is with an honest team.

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I don't know the main reason for sandbagging. Maybe it's to try and go to vegas. Maybe it's to stay under the 23 rules. Might be wrong but I think it would be tough to make it to Vegas with a team where everyone's skill levels are accurate. It would be interesting to know some stats of who has made it to Vegas over the years. How many individuals have made it more than once or more. Team captains and home locations. Some teams can play together for 30 years and never make it. Are they just that unlucky. While other have gone several times.

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