So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

[MahnaMahna]

Mike looked genuinely happy.



I do think it's unfortunate if it happened. Whoever made such a ridiculous line leading to the temptation is partially to blame here.



It was called the Challenge Of Champions so the presumption should have been that all the "Champions" had a fairly even shot at the title.

It is getting pretty sick watching you rationalize unacceptable behavior due to your own lack of control and unprofessionalism.

Because the casino made a bad line they are to blame for having an organized fraudulent act committed against them?

 

[JB Cases]

It is getting pretty sick watching you rationalize unacceptable behavior due to your own lack of control and unprofessionalism.

Because the casino made a bad line they are to blame for having an organized fraudulent act committed against them?

Aww, it's even funnier watching you project your own hangups onto me.

I am not rationalizing anything. In jurisprudence there is a concept of shared responsibility.

Clearly, IF the players colluded then it's wrong. No question.

But ALSO the casino is PARTIALLY wrong for setting up such a situation. I know that this is hard for you to understand but leaving your ipad on the seat of your jeep with no doors in the mall parking lot is an INVITATION for it to be stolen no matter how you look at it. Yes the stealing is wrong if it's stolen but in psychology it's long been known that when an OPPORTUNITY to steal is presented then often otherwise good people will take that opportunity.

As opposed to a premeditated theft where you did everything to protect yourself and still your ipad was stolen.

And wannawannabe, this is a DISCUSSION not a condemnation. Get over yourself. Sometimes people take the other side of a debate just to play it out and have stimulating conversation. Stop being so judgemental, it's annoying to be judged by some anon who is scared to troll under his or her own name and take responsibility for their comments.

 

[FreeShot]

Then it's winner take all and distribute as she wishes. The check and money goes to the winner...she then has to pay out the saver.

I'm not criticizing savers, but if two people make a deal before the match then it isn't really "winner take all." It's not the same as playing for all the money. There is a different level of pressure if the loser knows he is guaranteed a certain amount.

 

[daphish1]

Who am I to say if it was a dump, but I've never seen the best player in the world miss so many wide open shots in such a short time frame.

Isn't Hall considered one of the greatest 9 ball players to ever play the game? He was the guy Efren didn't beat gambling, right?

Even the combo (hey combo's are hard, right?) He didn't even send the ball towards the hole, shot it straight into the rail.

I can't see any of the top 10 players of the current generation dogging the shots that Hall did in the final two games.

 

[punter]

Aww, it's even funnier watching you project your own hangups onto me.

I am not rationalizing anything. In jurisprudence there is a concept of shared responsibility.

Clearly, IF the players colluded then it's wrong. No question.

But ALSO the casino is PARTIALLY wrong for setting up such a situation. I know that this is hard for you to understand but leaving your ipad on the seat of your jeep with no doors in the mall parking lot is an INVITATION for it to be stolen no matter how you look at it. Yes the stealing is wrong if it's stolen but in psychology it's long been known that when an OPPORTUNITY to steal is presented then often otherwise good people will take that opportunity.

As opposed to a premeditated theft where you did everything to protect yourself and still your ipad was stolen.

And wannawannabe, this is a DISCUSSION not a condemnation. Get over yourself. Sometimes people take the other side of a debate just to play it out and have stimulating conversation. Stop being so judgemental, it's annoying to be judged by some anon who is scared to troll under his or her own name and take responsibility for their comments.

Straight from Rationalization 101.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Buddys reply

Buddy told me today in person you all are FOS and don't know what you are talking about. No dump. So there you are

Oh yea, he also wanted to thank CJ and the rest who have defended him.

 

[JB Cases]

I'm not criticizing savers, but if two people make a deal before the match then it isn't really "winner take all." It's not the same as playing for all the money. There is a different level of pressure if the loser knows he is guaranteed a certain amount.

Agreed. They should make tournaments life or death. Loser gets shot. That way there are no savers and we get to see them perform under the highest amount of pressure possible.

John <-------- would be dead already.

 

[itsfroze]

lol lol lol

 

[CJ Wiley]

in America that was just "another Challenge of Champions" - no more, no less.

Buddy told me today in person you all are FOS and don't know what you are talking about. No dump. So there you are

Oh yea, he also wanted to thank CJ and the rest who have defended him.

Like Bobby Jones once said "congratulating me for being honest playing golf is like thanking me for not robbing a bank"

The only reason I know the truth is because I was there at the time and played in the tournament the next year......the only thing that was mentioned was "no savers," but that is a far cry from what the rumors are these days.

For everyone in America that was just "another Challenge of Champions" - no more, no less.

 

[Neil]

Like Bobby Jones once said "congratulating me for being honest playing golf is like thanking me for not robbing a bank"

The only reason I know the truth is because I was there at the time and played in the tournament the next year......the only thing that was mentioned was "no savers," but that is a far cry from what the rumors are these days.

For everyone in America that was just "another Challenge of Champions" - no more, no less.

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6601

So, we can believe you, or we can believe Earl. Looking at track records, I'm going with Earl. Why don't you try asking him yourself? While you are at it, ask him about this past Mosconi Cup.

 

[westcoast]

Something was very fishy in that match. Something was wrong. I know Buddy has to claim otherwise now, but when one watches that match it is very hard not to have deep suspicions that something was rotten. Hall looked like a run of the mill league player toward the end. I know pressure can get to a player, but I think we are being naive if we don't think something strange was going on.

 

[FreeShot]

Agreed. They should make tournaments life or death. Loser gets shot. That way there are no savers and we get to see them perform under the highest amount of pressure possible.
sort
John <-------- would be dead already.

Right, because that is the only logical conclusion that follows from not having savers, even though I said nothing about not having savers, only that there is a difference and there is.

 

[Poolshootindon]

Splatter Board

I use to shoot trap (clay pigeons) and during the event we often had splatter boards.

We would draw 20 circles on a piece of cardboard (usually using a half dollar as a template). We would sell each circle for a pre determined amount.

One person would shoot one shot at the target from about 40 feet.

Winner was the one who had the most BB's in their circle.

With all the excuses I have heard on this thread about the Challenge of Champions I would need to have a board twice this size to fill all the excuses.

Anyone who has watched the match between Hall and Lebron and has any knowledge of pool and has seen the Rifleman play knows that he dumped.

Watch some of Buddy's matches from other events and then watch his match against Lebron and tell me he didn't dump.

Don

 

[westcoast]

I use to shoot trap (clay pigeons) and during the event we often had splatter boards.

We would draw 20 circles on a piece of cardboard (usually using a half dollar as a template). We would sell each circle for a pre determined amount.

One person would shoot one shot at the target from about 40 feet.

Winner was the one who had the most BB's in their circle.

With all the excuses I have heard on this thread about the Challenge of Champions I would need to have a board twice this size to fill all the excuses.

Anyone who has watched the match between Hall and Lebron and has any knowledge of pool and has seen the Rifleman play knows that he dumped.

Watch some of Buddy's matches from other events and then watch his match against Lebron and tell me he didn't dump.

Don

the two shots that make me really suspicious were the 8 ball he missed in the 2nd to last rack and the combination- he missed both so badly and those were shots that any decent amateur player would make- actually even guys that casually play at a bar would probably make those shots.

 

[smoooothstroke]

the two shots that make me really suspicious were the 8 ball he missed in the 2nd to last rack and the combination- he missed both so badly and those were shots that any decent amateur player would make- actually even guys that casually play at a bar would probably make those shots.

Yes those shots are obvious intentional misses (assuming he was trying to throw the match).Add to that the attempted scratch in the side followed by the successful scratch in the side on the same shot from the opposite side of the table

.The near scratch can be explained by trying to get shape.The successful scratch was really a beautiful shot and should have gotten Buddy the results he wanted but Lebraun did not get out and left Buddy no choice but to win the game.Lebraun left the 8 in front of the side (easy stop shot) and the 9 in front of the near corner.

 

[West Point 1987]

Yes those shots are obvious intentional misses (assuming he was trying to throw the match).Add to that the attempted scratch in the side followed by the successful scratch in the side on the same shot from the opposite side of the table

.The near scratch can be explained by trying to get shape.The successful scratch was really a beautiful shot and should have gotten Buddy the results he wanted but Lebraun did not get out and left Buddy no choice but to win the game.Lebraun left the 8 in front of the side (easy stop shot) and the 9 in front of the near corner.

Yep. The two swings at scratching in the side was what convinced me something was up. The fist one was unexpected and poor judgement; but I could have assumed he's Buddy and knew he could cut it close to get two rail shape. The second successful attempt cinched it for me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I was taught many years ago that when I "assume" to know for sure.

Right, because that is the only logical conclusion that follows from not having savers, even though I said nothing about not having savers, only that there is a difference and there is.

Yes, there's a huge difference when it comes to "savers," even Jack Nicklaus and Lee Trevino got in trouble one year at the "SKINS GAME" for making a "saver" - of course that was quickly "swept under the carpet".

I can't pretend to know what was going through Buddy's head during that match. What I do know is if I was in the finals against an opponent that was 20/1 and EVERYONE was pulling against me to win.......it would IMPOSSIBLE to play "normal".

This would not mean Buddy intentionally played poorly, it would mean that he played poorly for other reasons than is assumed.

I was taught many years ago that when I "assume" to know for sure....well, you know the rest......

Being judge, and jury of Buddy Hall is easy when you've never been in his position.....and if you've been under that kind of pressure it's a different story. I've seen other finals where both players just "fell dead" and played awful.....sometimes it appears to be contagious, but that in now way means it's intentional...only human.

Again, no one can truly know what was going on inside Buddy's head, one thing's for sure - this didn't "ruin pool" in any way, shape or form. This very year I started playing Pro Tournaments and I'll assure everyone that the next 7 years were the biggest in the history of Pro Pool.....we did THOUSANDS of international hours on ESPN and millions of dollars were played for on the Pro Tours. And Earl even won a million dollar annuity for ONE MATCH (which also had controversy, so it's not uncommon in Pool), which we also have on video and documentary.

 

[Poolshootindon]

Maybe so

Yes, there's a huge difference when it comes to "savers," even Jack Nicklaus and Lee Trevino got in trouble one year at the "SKINS GAME" for making a "saver" - of course that was quickly "swept under the carpet".

I can't pretend to know what was going through Buddy's head during that match. What I do know is if I was in the finals against an opponent that was 20/1 and EVERYONE was pulling against me to win.......it would IMPOSSIBLE to play "normal".

This would not mean Buddy intentionally played poorly, it would mean that he played poorly for other reasons than is assumed.

I was taught many years ago that when I "assume" to know for sure....well, you know the rest......

Being judge, and jury of Buddy Hall is easy when you've never been in his position.....and if you've been under that kind of pressure it's a different story. I've seen other finals where both players just "fell dead" and played awful.....sometimes it appears to be contagious, but that in now way means it's intentional...only human.

Again, no one can truly know what was going on inside Buddy's head, one thing's for sure - this didn't "ruin pool" in any way, shape or form. This very year I started playing Pro Tournaments and I'll assure everyone that the next 7 years were the biggest in the history of Pro Pool.....we did THOUSANDS of international hours on ESPN and millions of dollars were played for on the Pro Tours. And Earl even won a million dollar annuity for ONE MATCH (which also had controversy, so it's not uncommon in Pool), which we also have on video and documentary.

CJ..
It may not have "ruined pool" but can you imagine someone wanting to stake Buddy in a cash game for a large amount.

As a sweater I would have been "veeeeeery leery".

Don

 

[CJ Wiley]

Buddy was regarded as the best player for many years after this tournament

CJ..
It may not have "ruined pool" but can you imagine someone wanting to stake Buddy in a cash game for a large amount.

As a sweater I would have been "veeeeeery leery".

Don

This didn't hurt Buddy's ability to get staked, or play professional pool. Buddy won MANY major events after losing this one.....no one can "win them all" .....even Buddy Hall.

I was just coming on the Pro scene this year so this is all fresh on my mind. Buddy was regarded as the best player for many years after this tournament and enjoyed a healthy reputation. Looking back 23 years to slander someone over a match that had so many factors makes me wonder what the real intent is......to bring positive vibes into pool today?.......hmmmm, I can't help but wonder if this is just another attempt to sabotage the game, there has certainly been many great things happen since then.

 

[JB Cases]

Yes, there's a huge difference when it comes to "savers," even Jack Nicklaus and Lee Trevino got in trouble one year at the "SKINS GAME" for making a "saver" - of course that was quickly "swept under the carpet".

I can't pretend to know what was going through Buddy's head during that match. What I do know is if I was in the finals against an opponent that was 20/1 and EVERYONE was pulling against me to win.......it would IMPOSSIBLE to play "normal".

This would not mean Buddy intentionally played poorly, it would mean that he played poorly for other reasons than is assumed.

I was taught many years ago that when I "assume" to know for sure....well, you know the rest......

Being judge, and jury of Buddy Hall is easy when you've never been in his position.....and if you've been under that kind of pressure it's a different story. I've seen other finals where both players just "fell dead" and played awful.....sometimes it appears to be contagious, but that in now way means it's intentional...only human.

Again, no one can truly know what was going on inside Buddy's head, one thing's for sure - this didn't "ruin pool" in any way, shape or form. This very year I started playing Pro Tournaments and I'll assure everyone that the next 7 years were the biggest in the history of Pro Pool.....we did THOUSANDS of international hours on ESPN and millions of dollars were played for on the Pro Tours. And Earl even won a million dollar annuity for ONE MATCH (which also had controversy, so it's not uncommon in Pool), which we also have on video and documentary.

It's ok CJ, everyone else here knows FOR SURE what it's like to play at your level. We know that we would NEVER miss or dog it for that type of money. We never have missed "easy" shots or easy shape in our lives.

Don't bother trying to explain things from your perspective as a top player. We already know what your caliber of player thinks and feels and experiences at the table.