A TOI Question to ponder- who uses it???

[Mikjary]

He is using a similar TOI type system. His position play shows this where the cue ball is being killed despite his firm strokes.

In the shots on the 3,5,6 and 7 balls he crosses over the cue ball to the inside. He cues outside/center and dives back to the inside. It's really obvious on the 6 and 7 balls. Using outside spin, his cue ball would be taking off after hitting the rails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHAG8YrXG8&feature=player_detailpage#t=1612

I used to be tortured by guys like this years ago. They looked like they were hitting outside or center and would hit to the inside of the cue ball. The rock hardly moved and they were always in line.

Best,
Mike

 

[robsnotes4u]

??????

All well and good. Except for the little fact that using the tangent line means using a stun shot. Which means you seldom are hitting on the horizontal center of the cb. You usually are hitting it below center. To utilize the tangent line, the cb must be sliding when it makes contact with the ob. Also, if using right or left on the horizontal axis, the cb will still go down the tangent line, but the actual tangent line will shift a little due to hitting the ob in a different place to allow for throw and still making the ob.

Still more accurate way to hit, versus trying to gauge how far down the tangent line the cue ball goes before curving forward from top spin or back from the backspin. Don't forget there is a reason Shane is better than the people on here. He hits the cueball where he wants, so he finds center ball, or the horizontal axis better than us.

 

[victorl]

Dennis Hatch is another.
I remember watching him shoot years ago and I couldn't understand how he could shoot cut shots so firmly and have the cue ball just die and float into place. I watched the match on video later and could see that he was cueing up with a little inside on a lot of shots.

 

[Mikjary]

Still more accurate way to hit, versus trying to gauge how far down the tangent line the cue ball goes before curving forward from top spin or back from the backspin. Don't forget there is a reason Shane is better than the people on here. He hits the cueball where he wants, so he finds center ball, or the horizontal axis better than us.

Not to mention the multitude of position variations a player like Shane or CJ can achieve by controlling spin, speed, and moving slightly on the vertical axis.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Dennis Hatch is another.
I remember watching him shoot years ago and I couldn't understand how he could shoot cut shots so firmly and have the cue ball just die and float into place. I watched the match on video later and could see that he was cueing up with a little inside on a lot of shots.

Years ago, we had a name for this kind of stroke, but couldn't figure out what was going on. We called it "the stroke where the spin wears off." :grin:

Our observations were correct, but we didn't understand the process. Of course, what do you expect from a bunch of pool players? We only new inside and outside spin.

Until CJ talked about top players hiding their cueing techniques, I never figured out was happening. Today I watch older videos of some players and see them using TOI. I recognize it because it's familiar. If I hadn't heard of TOI, I'd still be wondering how they moved the cue ball that way. Then it was okay to keep secrets from everybody else because the top players could make a killing. Today, with the internet and video, the secrets are exposed. I've learned more in one thread than I did in 10 years of playing.

Best,
Mike

 

[JayCall]

I believe you're right, even though the TOI wasn't known as a system or technique back then Keith certainly favors the NO SPIN (after contact) style of play.

We've played a few times and our styles are very similar, and that always worried me...I like playing players that use a lot of spin, however the TOI type players are always tough.

Sweet... i think we are finally onto something...

 

[JayCall]

Years ago, we had a name for this kind of stroke, but couldn't figure out what was going on. We called it "the stroke where the spin wears off." :grin:

Our observations were correct, but we didn't understand the process. Of course, what do you expect from a bunch of pool players? We only new inside and outside spin.

Until CJ talked about top players hiding their cueing techniques, I never figured out was happening. Today I watch older videos of some players and see them using TOI. I recognize it because it's familiar. If I hadn't heard of TOI, I'd still be wondering how they moved the cue ball that way. Then it was okay to keep secrets from everybody else because the top players could make a killing. Today, with the internet and video, the secrets are exposed. I've learned more in one thread than I did in 10 years of playing.

Best,
Mike

Yeah Mike its like this there are 4 types of people...

people that dont know they dont know
people that know they dont know
people that dont know they know...

and the ones we are now because this has been shared with us..

the people that know they know...

That's powerful....

 

[JayCall]

Dennis Hatch is another.
I remember watching him shoot years ago and I couldn't understand how he could shoot cut shots so firmly and have the cue ball just die and float into place. I watched the match on video later and could see that he was cueing up with a little inside on a lot of shots.

oh yeah, he is a good one to choose.. forgot about him...

 

[JayCall]

He is using a similar TOI type system. His position play shows this where the cue ball is being killed despite his firm strokes.

In the shots on the 3,5,6 and 7 balls he crosses over the cue ball to the inside. He cues outside/center and dives back to the inside. It's really obvious on the 6 and 7 balls. Using outside spin, his cue ball would be taking off after hitting the rails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHAG8YrXG8&feature=player_detailpage#t=1612

I used to be tortured by guys like this years ago. They looked like they were hitting outside or center and would hit to the inside of the cue ball. The rock hardly moved and they were always in line.

Best,
Mike

I know dude me too.... tortured!!!!!

things have changed...

 

[Mikjary]

I know dude me too.... tortured!!!!!

things have changed...

The only consolation I have is that not all top players were aware of TOI and suffered with me. I have a few close friends that didn't know about it until I showed them. They played on the Camel Tour and one is a Hall of Famer. It was that close mouthed when you had the nutz! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[JayCall]

The only consolation I have is that not all top players were aware of TOI and suffered with me. I have a few close friends that didn't know about it until I showed them. They played on the Camel Tour and one is a Hall of Famer. It was that close mouthed when you had the nutz! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

awesome..:dance:

 

[CJ Wiley]

.they are gone, but not forgotten. 'Their Game was my Teacher'

Yes, we were all taught to be "closed mouthed" and I respected that for many years. Times have changed and the gambling days are behind us......as far as I'm concerned it's now a time of revealing the advantages that many of us had for many years.

The players that were most aware of TOI are now either gone from this earth, missing from society, or involved in other non-pool related activities. I miss the Vernon Elliot's, Wade Cranes, Eddie Taylors, and Jersey Reds of the world....they are gone, but not forgotten. 'Their Game was my Teacher'

The only consolation I have is that not all top players were aware of TOI and suffered with me. I have a few close friends that didn't know about it until I showed them. They played on the Camel Tour and one is a Hall of Famer. It was that close mouthed when you had the nutz! :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Yes, we were all taught to be "closed mouthed" and I respected that for many years. Times have changed and the gambling days are behind us......as far as I'm concerned it's now a time of revealing the advantages that many of us had for many years.

The players that were most aware of TOI are now either gone from this earth, missing from society, or involved in other non-pool related activities. I miss the Vernon Elliot's, Wade Cranes, Eddie Taylors, and Jersey Reds of the world....they are gone, but not forgotten. 'Their Game was my Teacher'

CJ, I really respect your knowledge and respect for the history of the game. I read a lot of billiards books, "Hustler Days" was an excellent read, and I learned all about Jersey Red, amongst others, who you just mentioned. I know this is a little off topic, but being from Syracuse, N.Y., I have read the books by Babe Cranfield, and love watching old footage of Irving crane and babe cranfield(both upstate New Yorkers). Did you ever get a chance to see them play in their later years, our did your paths cross at any time in the eighties?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Allen Hopkins was the best action around that area

CJ, I really respect your knowledge and respect for the history of the game. I read a lot of billiards books, "Hustler Days" was an excellent read, and I learned all about Jersey Red, amongst others, who you just mentioned. I know this is a little off topic, but being from Syracuse, N.Y., I have read the books by Babe Cranfield, and love watching old footage of Irving crane and babe cranfield(both upstate New Yorkers). Did you ever get a chance to see them play in their later years, our did your paths cross at any time in the eighties?

No, they were a bit before my time. New York had some great players, however, they were not necessarily known for their gambling and therefore didn't attract "Road Men".

The joke was they would want to play a race to 100 in straight pool to decide who broke first playing a $500. 9-Ball set.....then run 100 and out on you to "win the flip".....and ultimately fire one set and quit. :shrug:

Allen Hopkins was the best action around that area, although he was certainly no bargain to beat playing any game.......by any body.

 

[CJ Wiley]

for the Game to get more popular {again}, it must become easier

Like any advanced pool system it's challening to explain the TOI in writing without video. Even on video it took me 10 hours of demonstration and description to be satisfied that TOI is communicated properly.

Before you think it's a 10 hour video I'll put your mind at ease, it's been cut down to just over an hour. The point is there's a lot involved in explaining something that ends up being simple. I took the 3 major calculations you have to make to play pool and blended them into one system so every shot can have similar qualities.

This was one of the biggest challenges of my career thus far - the playing is easy compared to truly communicating how I do the 'Touch of Inside' technique.

The key is to explain it in a way that you can REALLY do it, and not just say "wow, it's amazing, but I could never do that". After you watch {and apply} this TOI Video anyone can make improvements (at their own level, whatever that may be) and jump up levels in their performance.

From my vantage point, for the Game to get more popular {again}, it must become easier for MANY to play better and learn easier. This is my outcome and my long term goal and {I} will do whatever it takes for my teacher to rise in popularity, and 'The Game is my Teacher'.