So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

[PINKLADY]

Matt Braun you mean?

I am not sure why you listed the other promoters. Do they all have stories of the top players mentioned dumping in their events that we don't know about?

I have never heard Mark, Greg, Badi, or Barry mention anything about those players dumping. Have you?

yes, Matt Braun - i edited. thank you.

it'd take me too long to quadruple-quote & edit-out to stay on topic, but essentially, you didn't want a list of current & past "assumed dumpers/savers" from the other poster (JoeyinCali or ONB).

my reference was NOT solely about the COC-thing. it was a suggestion to end this by sending you straight to the higher source(s), to confirm your beliefs.

what you choose to do with the information, is entirely up to you....

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Again why did Buddy go to the shot? he didn't have to, he could have missed any of the other balls, he could have played out of position. He could have even played the position on the combo so that it was even more off angle.

You keep hanging onto that missed combo as if it's the smoking gun but in fact it's not. My contention is that an experienced player like Buddy doesn't even play it like that if he intends to miss. Instead he would play it so that the cue ball position makes a miss much more likely and thus more believeable.

All it would take is a little extra juice to put the cue ball in positions where the position play isn't so perfect. But he didn't do that....no he played for optimal cue ball position to make the combo and then dogged it.

Again, if it was a dump, and people have called me to tell me it was, these champions were the worst dumpers on the planet to let it go hill/hill with Buddy facing what you think was an unmissable combination on the nine.

John,

This combo was not a hanger. He did miss it to the wrong side though. It's tough to miss it that far to the short rail.

Here are two pics of Hall's shot and one of his miss. It did not miss by 5 inches as someone has previously stated.

ONB

 

[JB Cases]

yes, Matt Braun - i edited. thank you.

it'd take me too long to quadruple-quote & edit-out to stay on topic, but essentially, you didn't want a list of current & past "assumed dumpers/savers" from the other poster (JoeyinCali or ONB).

my reference was NOT solely about the COC-thing. it was a suggestion to end this by sending you straight to the higher source(s), to confirm your beliefs.

what you choose to do with the information, is entirely up to you....

I should call Badi Nazhat to ask him about the 91 Challenge of Champions? Or Mark or Greg or Barry? Did they have something to do with that event?

Or is to ask them if they think Varner, Hall, Sigel, Rempe, Howard and Lebron are known to dump frequently?

What do you suppose the fruit of those conversations would be if I were to actually do that? Would they go on record saying all these guys are frequent dumpers? Would they tell me that they had inside information that the 91 COC was a conspiracy to let Lebron win?

Why not just tell us what you know and get it over with so I don't need to call them and ask them?

Although I will see Mark at BCA and if the opportunity arises I will tell him you asked me to ask him about whether these players are all dumpers.

 

[JB Cases]

John,

This combo was not a hanger. He did miss it to the wrong side though. It's tough to miss it that far to the short rail.

Here are two pics of Hall's shot and one of his miss. It did not miss by 5 inches as someone has previously stated.

ONB


View attachment 338171

View attachment 338172

View attachment 338173

This is the point I have trying to make. It was a slightly off-angle combo, certainly not wired. With two diamonds between the cue ball and the 8 and at least six inches or more between the 8 and the 9.

It's totally missable because even a fraction of an inch, a teeny tiny spot over on the eight sends the 8 to the wrong place on the 9.

In this type of shot you could make it when trying to miss it. IMO.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

This is the point I have trying to make. It was a slightly off-angle combo, certainly not wired. With two diamonds between the cue ball and the 8 and at least six inches or more between the 8 and the 9.

It's totally missable because even a fraction of an inch, a teeny tiny spot over on the eight sends the 8 to the wrong place on the 9.

In this type of shot you could make it when trying to miss it. IMO.

John,

Yes, it was slightly off-angle but it should've been missed to the long rail if anything, not the short rail, especially by a player of Hall's caliber. He didn't even set up correctly for the shot as some here have mentioned.

That said, this combo was not a "hanger" for anyone, I don't care who it is. I do think Hall missed it badly to the wrong rail though.

ONB

 

[PINKLADY]

I should call Badi Nazhat to ask him about the 91 Challenge of Champions? Or Mark or Greg or Barry? Did they have something to do with that event?

Or is to ask them if they think Varner, Hall, Sigel, Rempe, Howard and Lebron are known to dump frequently?

What do you suppose the fruit of those conversations would be if I were to actually do that? Would they go on record saying all these guys are frequent dumpers? Would they tell me that they had inside information that the 91 COC was a conspiracy to let Lebron win?

Why not just tell us what you know and get it over with so I don't need to call them and ask them?

Although I will see Mark at BCA and if the opportunity arises I will tell him you asked me to ask him about whether these players are all dumpers.

1) call Matt Braun about the COC. Jay posted that he kicked him out & closed the doors.... ASK HIM.

2) call all others about any others, not including the COC.

3) go straight to the higher source(s).

4) because IF - i knew ANYthing - you wouldn't take my Word on it.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Some people in this thread need to clear PM space please.

ONB

 

[JB Cases]

1) call Matt Braun about the COC. Jay posted that he kicked him out & closed the doors.... ASK HIM.

2) call all others about any others, not including the COC.

3) go straight to the higher source(s).

4) because IF - i knew ANYthing - you wouldn't take my Word on it.

1. Then Jay has no knowledge of what was said unless he has a transcript. Of course there was talk that there was a dump but in my opinion it was all speculation even from Jay and Matt Braun. Perhaps that's why Matt Braun then (allegedly) told the players that there was to be no hint of collusion going forward. Which is what he should have if there was a taint of it the year previously.

2. Why should I? My point remains that on these PUBLIC forums none of these players have that reputation and you know as well as I do that there are plenty of rumormongers here who live to put players down. So if they had anything about these players in other events or money matches it would have already been all over AZB many times.

3. For what? Are these "higher sources" going to divulge to me what they know or think they know? Why would they do that?

4. Well you are insinuating that they have told you that these six players were known dumpers so you might as well state that whether I believe you or not. Easier to just come out and say it.

To me unless you were involved in any dumps anything you know would be hearsay from someone else and if they weren't involved then it's their speculation. Now I get it if that information comes from someone you trust.

Here is the thing with using it though. You can really **** UP someone's life by using information that you got from someone you trust that may not be 100% right. That other person might be right or they might only believe they are right. You passing it on though without some other verification is wrong IMO.

I did this once on here. Out of pique I released a tidbit that I was told by someone I consider to be an extremely reliable source. I still think it's probably true. But, I was the asshole that opened up the can of worms in public when I didn't need to. It made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the course of the conversation for me to use that information, I could have made my points without it.

That information painted someone as a kind of thief. I didn't need to go there based on third-party information no matter how much I looked up to and trusted them.

So I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from here. Not saying a dump didn't occur. Just saying that it's unproven and I wish people would converse about it with that in mind instead of making it out to be 100% fact that it happened.

 

[8pack]

The word pressure has come up a few times.

Did these players have to put up any money to Play?

If No, I don't see the pressure thing as big deal.

 

[Celtic]

John,

This combo was not a hanger. He did miss it to the wrong side though.

He missed that on the "right" side, given what his intentions were.

Buddy knew full well that missing the combo by cutting the 8 across the 9 to the short rail was WAY safer and an assured miss then attempting to overcut the combo to the long rail and hope to not catch the point on the huge pocket and have the ball drop.

That is one of the key shots in the match that showed it was clearly a dump, it is not so much that Buddy missed that shot but HOW he missed that shot that really matters. He aimed to do exactly what it did.

Had he overcut the combo and bobbled the shot things would be a lot less clear, but he aimed that shot so that the 9 never had a prayer of falling in. And don't sit there and try to say "everyone misses, that was a tough combo". Buddy did not "miss" that shot at all, he did exactly what he wanted.

 

[JB Cases]

He missed that on the "right" side, given what his intentions were.

Buddy knew full well that missing the combo by cutting the 8 across the 9 to the short rail was WAY safer and an assured miss then attempting to overcut the combo to the long rail and hope to not catch the point on the huge pocket and have the ball drop.

That is one of the key shots in the match that showed it was clearly a dump, it is not so much that Buddy missed that shot but HOW he missed that shot that really matters. He aimed to do exactly what it did.

Had he overcut the combo and bobbled the shot things would be a lot less clear, but he aimed that shot so that the 9 never had a prayer of falling in. And don't sit there and try to say "everyone misses, that was a tough combo". Buddy did not "miss" that shot at all, he did exactly what he wanted.

So you are able to read Buddy's mind? Or are you speculating on what you think Buddy was thinking?

IF there was a dump on then yes, Buddy cutting the 8 to the right sends the nine left as he would well know.

But again IF there was a dump then why don't you also speculate that Buddy Hall, veteran of countless money matches and situations, veteran of countless tournaments, would have enough sense to not even let the match get to hill hill and then if it got to hill hill have enough sense not to run out to that combination?

 

[JB Cases]

The word pressure has come up a few times.

Did these players have to put up any money to Play?

If No, I don't see the pressure thing as big deal.

Oh please. Forget about the dump allegations. Playing for 50k winner take all is pressure no matter how they got there.

You're going to sit here and now say that if someone were to put you into a tournament with 50k first prize that you would feel no pressure because you didn't put up any of your own money?

You know I would love to see a list of events you have won? I have scoured the net and can't find anything about you in the midwest. With the skill you show on video and the fact that you feel no pressure you should be tearing up the Midwest 9 Ball tour. you talk about this match as if you would have never missed a ball for 50k. I think you would have dogged it so bad people would be calling you a dumper.

 

[PINKLADY]

1. Then Jay has no knowledge of what was said unless he has a transcript. Of course there was talk that there was a dump but in my opinion it was all speculation even from Jay and Matt Braun. Perhaps that's why Matt Braun then (allegedly) told the players that there was to be no hint of collusion going forward. Which is what he should have if there was a taint of it the year previously.

2. Why should I? My point remains that on these PUBLIC forums none of these players have that reputation and you know as well as I do that there are plenty of rumormongers here who live to put players down. So if they had anything about these players in other events or money matches it would have already been all over AZB many times.

3. For what? Are these "higher sources" going to divulge to me what they know or think they know? Why would they do that?

4. Well you are insinuating that they have told you that these six players were known dumpers so you might as well state that whether I believe you or not. Easier to just come out and say it.

To me unless you were involved in any dumps anything you know would be hearsay from someone else and if they weren't involved then it's their speculation. Now I get it if that information comes from someone you trust.

Here is the thing with using it though. You can really **** UP someone's life by using information that you got from someone you trust that may not be 100% right. That other person might be right or they might only believe they are right. You passing it on though without some other verification is wrong IMO.

I did this once on here. Out of pique I released a tidbit that I was told by someone I consider to be an extremely reliable source. I still think it's probably true. But, I was the asshole that opened up the can of worms in public when I didn't need to. It made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the course of the conversation for me to use that information, I could have made my points without it.

That information painted someone as a kind of thief. I didn't need to go there based on third-party information no matter how much I looked up to and trusted them.

So I hope this helps you to understand where I am coming from here. Not saying a dump didn't occur. Just saying that it's unproven and I wish people would converse about it with that in mind instead of making it out to be 100% fact that it happened.

you are exactly right, John. which is why i wanted to point out, that if you (and/or anyone else!), actually picked up the phone, instead of all being verbose, that this could, conceivably, END.

you are coming from the point of legal proof; they are according to "The Court of Pool".

and i am not stating, that i know any thing.
i also, will not be the one responsible for Buddy putting a gun to his head.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

He missed that on the "right" side, given what his intentions were.

Buddy knew full well that missing the combo by cutting the 8 across the 9 to the short rail was WAY safer and an assured miss then attempting to overcut the combo to the long rail and hope to not catch the point on the huge pocket and have the ball drop.

That is one of the key shots in the match that showed it was clearly a dump, it is not so much that Buddy missed that shot but HOW he missed that shot that really matters. He aimed to do exactly what it did.

Had he overcut the combo and bobbled the shot things would be a lot less clear, but he aimed that shot so that the 9 never had a prayer of falling in. And don't sit there and try to say "everyone misses, that was a tough combo". Buddy did not "miss" that shot at all, he did exactly what he wanted.

Whether in pro Golf or any other sport, there is a "proper" way to miss, what they call the "pro" side. Hall definitely missed to the "shortstop" side and he was not a shortstop. It does look bad.

I don't know what his intentions were although I lean in one direction.

P.S. Stating that "That is one of the key shots in the match that showed it was clearly a dump" does not help your cause. As JB has written, if it was a dump it should never have come down to Hall's last shot of the match.

ONB

 

[Celtic]

So you are able to read Buddy's mind?

Dude, you have clearly chosen to believe it was an honest loss no matter how much evidence is given to you. The other 95% of the people on this thread will go on believing what the evidence fairly strongly shows.

That is where we are now and that is where we clearly will be no matter how many posts either of us make on the subject. Do you at least agree with that or do you want to argue about that now for 15 pages?

 

[JB Cases]

you are exactly right, John. which is why i wanted to point out, that if you (and/or anyone else!), actually picked up the phone, instead of all being verbose, that this could, conceivably, END.

you are coming from the point of legal proof; they are according to "The Court of Pool".

and i am not stating, that i know any thing.
i also, will not be the one responsible for Buddy putting a gun to his head.

How could it end?

The accusations are out there and some people here are adamant that it was a conspiracy even though they have no proof other than hearsay? So if people are willing to be insulting and pissy over hearsay about an event that happened 23 years ago then how do you think it will end?

We had this out years ago. It has resurfaced. It will continue to resurface.

Buddy says it wasn't a dump. Guess no one gives weight to the guy who was actually playing and all the weight to the people who were not playing. Buddy can't win in this situation anyway.

I think I am going to start looking for all the matches where a top player dogged it and start insinuating that it was a dump. Just to get conversation going.......

 

[JB Cases]

Dude, you have clearly chosen to believe it was an honest loss no matter how much evidence is given to you. The other 95% of the people on this thread will go on believing what the evidence fairly strongly shows.

That is where we are now and that is where we clearly will be no matter how many posts either of us make on the subject. Do you at least agree with that or do you want to argue about that now for 15 pages?

I have stated my position a dozen times. Again that position is I don't KNOW if a dump happened or not. I think that it didn't based on my analysis of the hearsay and the video.

I take exception to you saying that you KNOW for a fact that it did based on the same evidence because you cannot know it for a fact. You can believe it did, but you cannot KNOW it did.

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Old Nine Baller]

We had this out years ago. It has resurfaced. It will continue to resurface.

John,

I asked you in this or the other thread: When was the earliest you remember hearing about this alleged dump"? Please try to be close to the year, don't just say "years ago" if you will.

ONB

 

[TheThaiger]

This is the point I have trying to make. It was a slightly off-angle combo, certainly not wired. With two diamonds between the cue ball and the 8 and at least six inches or more between the 8 and the 9.

It's totally missable because even a fraction of an inch, a teeny tiny spot over on the eight sends the 8 to the wrong place on the 9.

In this type of shot you could make it when trying to miss it. IMO.

There's not a combo in the world I cannot miss.

 

[Celtic]

As JB has written, if it was a dump it should never have come down to Hall's last shot of the match.

It was not supposed to either. Hall missed late when Lebron was up 8-7 and Lebron missed the 8 leaving Hall two ducks. As much as Hall did not want the game going hill/hill there is only so much you can miss while still leaving things less then brutally obvious.

As to the mention of him breaking the balls very hard in the last rack as CJ mentioned before as evidence of him trying to win. In this event the 9 on the break was not a win so at the very least he knew he could not win the game accidently with a golden break, the 9 would have been spotted.

When it comes to dumping one does not simply go and fire the cueball into a corner pocket and give their opponent ball in hand, you play it close and make it look good. What Buddy and Lebron did was pretty clearly explained in a movie a few years earlier with a guy named Vincent dumping to a guy named Eddie. You don't make the dump obvious, you make it look close so people like JB remain oblivious.