So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

JB Cases said:
So you are able to read Buddy's mind? Or are you speculating on what you think Buddy was thinking?

IF there was a dump on then yes, Buddy cutting the 8 to the right sends the nine left as he would well know.

But again IF there was a dump then why don't you also speculate that Buddy Hall, veteran of countless money matches and situations, veteran of countless tournaments, would have enough sense to not even let the match get to hill hill and then if it got to hill hill have enough sense not to run out to that combination?
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Err, Buddy missed the 8 ball in the previous rack.
It wasn't supposed to go hill hill.
Did you want Buddy to miss those two balls Lebron left him too ?
Buddy missed the 8 and unfortunately left Lebron a tough 8.
Lebron whacked at it and left Buddy two ducks .

Buddy breaks the last rack hard . 9-ball on the break don't count.
Scratches on the 1-ball.
LeBron misses the 2-ball. Buddy almost scratches again going 2 to the 5.
Gets to the 8 ball again and misses the combo.

The sum of all parts lead me , Jay and a whole lot of people to a dump conclusion. Maybe the ref and a friend of the promoter will change his mind someday.

back to painting for me..
 
Old Nine Baller said:
John,

I asked you in this or the other thread: When was the earliest you remember hearing about this alleged dump"? Please try to be close to the year, don't just say "years ago" if you will.

ONB
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And I told you I can't pinpoint it like that. The first time it came up on AZB as I recall. If you have some specific reason for asking then post that because if I knew a year I would certainly tell you.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Err, Buddy missed the 8 ball in the previous rack.
It wasn't supposed to go hill hill.
Did you want Buddy to miss those two balls Lebron left him too ?
Buddy missed the 8 and unfortunately left Lebron a tough 8.
Lebron whacked at it and left Buddy two ducks .

Buddy breaks the last rack hard . 9-ball on the break don't count.
Scratches on the 1-ball.
LeBron misses the 2-ball. Buddy almost scratches again going 2 to the 5.
Gets to the 8 ball again and misses the combo.

The sum of all parts lead me , Jay and a whole lot of people to a dump conclusion. Maybe the ref and a friend of the promoter will change his mind someday.

back to painting for me..
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Buddy missed the eight by a fraction of an inch and then Lebron ends up jacked up over the ball. Buddy RAN OUT to the eight in that game after trying to play a legimate safe where the one banked into the side. Buddy could have dogged position on the three EASILY but he didn't. Instead he played it perfect with inside spin to kill the cue ball and get perfect on the three to run out to the eight.

So IF Buddy INTENDED to dump then why not dump earlier in the rack at 7:8?

why wait until the 8 ball?

HIll Hill game, scratches on the one, why go for that scratch? Why not just choose the other route and hook yourself? Why not miss the five? you honestly think Buddy was trying to scratch from the two to the five? Really? He couldn't pick an easier path for the scratch attempt? If so then again he is the stupidest dumper in the world trying that type of scratch at that point. Far easier to simply under hit it and leave himself tougher on the five which he could then have missed without suspicion.

I have known Buddy Hall for almost 20 years now. Never known him to be a complete idiot when it comes to playing pool. He is a pretty precise player when he is on so if he was focused on dumping I fully believe that he doesn't do it so stupidly as to miss the easy shots. I fully believe he would have missed position so as to leave tougher shots that were missable. That's my opinion on the subject and I could be wrong.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Err, Buddy missed the 8 ball in the previous rack.
It wasn't supposed to go hill hill.
Did you want Buddy to miss those two balls Lebron left him too ?
Buddy missed the 8 and unfortunately left Lebron a tough 8.
Lebron whacked at it and left Buddy two ducks .

Buddy breaks the last rack hard . 9-ball on the break don't count.
Scratches on the 1-ball.
LeBron misses the 2-ball. Buddy almost scratches again going 2 to the 5.
Gets to the 8 ball again and misses the combo.

The sum of all parts lead me , Jay and a whole lot of people to a dump conclusion. Maybe the ref and a friend of the promoter will change his mind someday.

back to painting for me..
Click to expand...

Buddy missed the eight by a fraction of an inch and then Lebron ends up jacked up over the ball. Buddy RAN OUT to the eight in that game after trying to play a legimate safe where the one banked into the side. Buddy could have dogged position on the three EASILY but he didn't. Instead he played it perfect with inside spin to kill the cue ball and get perfect on the three to run out to the eight.

So IF Buddy INTENDED to dump then why not dump earlier in the rack at 7:8?

why wait until the 8 ball?

HIll Hill game, scratches on the one, why go for that scratch? Why not just choose the other route and hook yourself? Why not miss the five? you honestly think Buddy was trying to scratch from the two to the five? Really? He couldn't pick an easier path for the scratch attempt? If so then again he is the stupidest dumper in the world trying that type of scratch at that point. Far easier to simply under hit it and leave himself tougher on the five which he could then have missed without suspicion.

I have known Buddy Hall for almost 20 years now. Never known him to be a complete idiot when it comes to playing pool. He is a pretty precise player when he is on so if he was focused on dumping I fully believe that he doesn't do it so stupidly as to miss the easy shots. I fully believe he would have missed position so as to leave tougher shots that were missable. That's my opinion on the subject and I could be wrong.
 
JB Cases said:
Oh please. Forget about the dump allegations. Playing for 50k winner take all is pressure no matter how they got there.

You're going to sit here and now say that if someone were to put you into a tournament with 50k first prize that you would feel no pressure because you didn't put up any of your own money?

You know I would love to see a list of events you have won? I have scoured the net and can't find anything about you in the midwest. With the skill you show on video and the fact that you feel no pressure you should be tearing up the Midwest 9 Ball tour. you talk about this match as if you would have never missed a ball for 50k. I think you would have dogged it so bad people would be calling you a dumper. :-)
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I have know doubt I could of would of fell apart... I have a little anxiety every once in awhile,I get chances and can't capitalize. Just part of my game.:)
And i do play bad.

I'm married with kids and I'm very thankful. Really just a banger but I can tell you this with a guarantee...You don't have be a great player to see what happened here.


tearing up the Midwest 9 Ball ....I'm so thankful I have a job.:)




 
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Old Nine Baller said:
As JB has written, if it was a dump it should never have come down to Hall's last shot of the match.

ONB
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Celtic said:
It was not supposed to either. Hall missed late when Lebron was up 8-7 and Lebron missed the 8 leaving Hall two ducks. As much as Hall did not want the game going hill/hill there is only so much you can miss while still leaving things less then brutally obvious.

As to the mention of him breaking the balls very hard in the last rack as CJ mentioned before as evidence of him trying to win. In this event the 9 on the break was not a win so at the very least he knew he could not win the game accidently with a golden break, the 9 would have been spotted.

When it comes to dumping one does not simply go and fire the cueball into a corner pocket and give their opponent ball in hand, you play it close and make it look good. What Buddy and Lebron did was pretty clearly explained in a movie a few years earlier with a guy named Vincent dumping to a guy named Eddie. You don't make the dump obvious, you make it look close so people like JB remain oblivious.
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My main point is that it shouldn't have gone to 8-7 either.

I've seen dumps where the weaker player who was getting weight couldn't make a ball in the ocean and the better player had to keep missing to let him win. Lebron did remind me of this and so did Hall in the finals.

P.S. I have all 7 matches on DVD so you don't need to explain to me shot by shot what happened:).

P.Ps. I think Vincent said something along the line of "As soon as I broke I knew which ball it would be" (to miss).

ONB
 
Old Nine Baller said:
John,

I asked you in this or the other thread: When was the earliest you remember hearing about this alleged dump"? Please try to be close to the year, don't just say "years ago" if you will.

ONB
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JB Cases said:
And I told you I can't pinpoint it like that. The first time it came up on AZB as I recall. If you have some specific reason for asking then post that because if I knew a year I would certainly tell you.
Click to expand...

Sorry John, I must've missed that post from you. I'm not trying to play games or anything, I was just wondering the earliest that you'd heard about it.

I read about it in 2004 on the Southern Billiards website and the guys talking about it had known about it for years. Scroll down to the 3rd reply.

http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834/Splits-takedowns-savers-etc-are-wrong#.U4PCBmfQecw

ONB
 
Even Efren played awful shots when he first started playing TV matches in the USA

It's ironic that everyone that I know that HAS played on ESPN gives Buddy the benefit of the doubt. This is because we can actually relate to the situation, not just watch the shots like Buddy's playing in the 'Challenge of the Shortstops" on streaming video.

If you added ALL the "accusers" together not one of them can relate to playing on ESPN under the $50,000 Winner Take All Pressure. I've even heard knockers try to say there wasn't any pressure......WTF??? - This is ludicrous in every sense of the word!!!*

Playing on TV is a TOTALLY different experience mentally, and physically.....it's almost impossible to play normally (sweaty/shaky hands, hot from TV lights, nerves on end, difficult staying down - staying in rhythm), even Johnny Archer, who's played in 16+Mosconi Cups says his hands still shake playing those TV matches.

Missing a combination under the 90 degree TV lights is apples to oranges to missing one playing in APA, or a $10. tournament (or whatever you're used to).

I'm not "sticking up for Buddy," I'm merely stating the facts as I know them from playing almost 30 TV matches in my career (real TV, not Streaming Video).

Even Efren played awful {at times} when he first started playing TV matches in the USA, and missed shots that he would NEVER have missed under "normal" conditions.

*
lu·di·crous adjective \ˈlü-də-krəs\
: very foolish

Full Definition of LUDICROUS

1
: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2
: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish




JB Cases said:
So you are able to read Buddy's mind? Or are you speculating on what you think Buddy was thinking?

IF there was a dump on then yes, Buddy cutting the 8 to the right sends the nine left as he would well know.

But again IF there was a dump then why don't you also speculate that Buddy Hall, veteran of countless money matches and situations, veteran of countless tournaments, would have enough sense to not even let the match get to hill hill and then if it got to hill hill have enough sense not to run out to that combination?
Click to expand...
 
Old Nine Baller said:
Sorry John, I must've missed that post from you. I'm not trying to play games or anything, I was just wondering the earliest that you'd heard about it.

I read about it in 2004 on the Southern Billiards website and the guys talking about it had known about it for years. Scroll down to the 3rd reply.

http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834/Splits-takedowns-savers-etc-are-wrong#.U4PCBmfQecw

ONB
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Yes I hadn't heard of it then - but then later on here someone brought it up.

But this is exactly the point I am making. RH Gilmer, a saint of a man, got it wrong. He says he watched the match over and over and over and yet he still didn't recall the sequence correctly.

And the story about Earl doesn't wash right.

Think about it? Who is the THEY that scheduled the COC just to keep Earl out?

Matt Braun? Why would he not want Earl playing? The players don't schedule Matt's event he does. In past years it's even conflicted with the US Open overlapping by a few days.

And why wouldn't Earl have chirped about this conspiracy before and after the event to other people? You know the old saying a happy customer tells ten people and an unhappy one tells everyone.

So surely Earl would have made waves about it knowing what we know of Earl.

Now, let's look at the timeline...how far in advance of an event does Vegas make lines? How much time would the players have known about it in time to ask Earl to be a part of it?

I assume that based on Earl claiming to have been asked it would have had to have been months prior and at that point without the line up complete. Would Vegas have made lines known to the public months before the event? Do they do that for other sporting events? Alright so let's say that the lines were public months in advance..... why then only 11 bets on LeBron at 20:1? Wouldn't that have given those players plenty of time to arrange for dozens of shills to be in vegas to make bets? Wouldn't it have enticed regular folks to bet and thus been way more than 11 bets?

So the timing of all that Mr. Gilmer wrote doesn't make sense to me.

I can certainly see Earl not agreeing to be a part of any conspiracy to dump. But I doubt he was even asked. I would think that given Earl's volatility it would be imprudent to include him. Although, the real answer is....we will just never know.
 
8pack said:


I have know doubt I could of would of fell apart... I have a little anxiety every once in awhile,I get chances and can't capitalize. Just part of my game.:)
And i do play bad.

I'm married with kids and I'm very thankful. Really just a banger but I can tell you this with a guarantee...You don't have be a great player to see what happened here.


tearing up the Midwest 9 Ball ....I'm so thankful I have a job.:)
Click to expand...

I will be happy to bring you to Vegas to do the experiment I oulined above. We show good players matches where the pro misses easy shots and ask them what they think. The majority, with no prompting, will likely say folded under pressure.

Then we show the same clips to others but ask them, do you think it was a dump or folding under pressure? The percentage that say dump, when the word dump is introduced as a possibility, will be way higher.

The fact of it is if no one told you that this was a possible dump then you too would be highly unlikely to see it as such.
 
JB Cases said:
I will be happy to bring you to Vegas to do the experiment I oulined above. We show good players matches where the pro misses easy shots and ask them what they think. The majority, with no prompting, will likely say folded under pressure.

Then we show the same clips to others but ask them, do you think it was a dump or folding under pressure? The percentage that say dump, when the word dump is introduced as a possibility, will be way higher.

The fact of it is if no one told you that this was a possible dump then you too would be highly unlikely to see it as such.
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If you want to do this correctly, you'd have to take the best player in the world and then run your experiment. Buddy Hall was the number one player in the world at that time, correct?
 
daphish1 said:
If you want to do this correctly, you'd have to take the best player in the world and then run your experiment. Buddy Hall was the number one player in the world at that time, correct?
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I don't know, I thought someone said Earl Strickland was the top player back then?

That's not the point.

When Steve Davis, the best player in the world lost to Dennis Taylor no one thought it was a dump. Steve missed shots that no one would expect and no one thought he dumped to Dennis.

The point is without context, in effect someone telling you that there could be a dump, then most people don't see it as a dump. But once the idea of a dump is introduced most people can't see it any other way.
 
JB Cases said:
Yes I hadn't heard of it then - but then later on here someone brought it up.

But this is exactly the point I am making. RH Gilmer, a saint of a man, got it wrong. He says he watched the match over and over and over and yet he still didn't recall the sequence correctly.

And the story about Earl doesn't wash right.

Think about it? Who is the THEY that scheduled the COC just to keep Earl out?

Matt Braun? Why would he not want Earl playing? The players don't schedule Matt's event he does. In past years it's even conflicted with the US Open overlapping by a few days.

And why wouldn't Earl have chirped about this conspiracy before and after the event to other people? You know the old saying a happy customer tells ten people and an unhappy one tells everyone.

So surely Earl would have made waves about it knowing what we know of Earl.

Now, let's look at the timeline...how far in advance of an event does Vegas make lines? How much time would the players have known about it in time to ask Earl to be a part of it?

I assume that based on Earl claiming to have been asked it would have had to have been months prior and at that point without the line up complete. Would Vegas have made lines known to the public months before the event? Do they do that for other sporting events? Alright so let's say that the lines were public months in advance..... why then only 11 bets on LeBron at 20:1? Wouldn't that have given those players plenty of time to arrange for dozens of shills to be in vegas to make bets? Wouldn't it have enticed regular folks to bet and thus been way more than 11 bets?

So the timing of all that Mr. Gilmer wrote doesn't make sense to me.

I can certainly see Earl not agreeing to be a part of any conspiracy to dump. But I doubt he was even asked. I would think that given Earl's volatility it would be imprudent to include him. Although, the real answer is....we will just never know.
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Simple,
They changed the line once 11 people bet the max on Mike
I think he was just wrong in remembering or saying that they knew the line in advance.
 
itsfroze said:
Simple,
They changed the line once 11 people bet the max on Mike
I think he was just wrong in remembering or saying that they knew the line in advance.
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So they didn't expect more than ten bets at 20:1?

You see the whole story is twisty.
 
JB Cases said:
I will be happy to bring you to Vegas to do the experiment I oulined above. We show good players matches where the pro misses easy shots and ask them what they think. The majority, with no prompting, will likely say folded under pressure.

Then we show the same clips to others but ask them, do you think it was a dump or folding under pressure? The percentage that say dump, when the word dump is introduced as a possibility, will be way higher.

The fact of it is if no one told you that this was a possible dump then you too would be highly unlikely to see it as such.
Click to expand...


This isn't that important to me...just something posted here for all to see and share are views on. No one can change things now. Not you, not even Mr Wiley.:smile:

It is a very interesting topic.

If someone accused you of something like this,would you keep quiet?
I know I wouldn't.

If I didn't know anything about the game or player's,(after watching this match) I would of bet you Mr Buddy Hall wasn't a world class player.:wink:
 
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8pack said:
This isn't that important to me...just something posted here for all to see and share are views on. No one can change things now. Not you, not even Mr Wiley.:smile:

It is a very interesting topic.

If someone accused you of something like this,would you keep quiet?
I know I wouldn't.

If I didn't know anything about the game or player's,(after watching this match) I would of bet you Mr Buddy Hall wasn't a world class player.:wink:
Click to expand...

Buddy didn't keep quiet. He said there was no dump. You and many others call him a liar.
 
wow my thread sure dug up a bunch of stuff.

The thing is, if you take ONE missed combo, it's one thing.

If you add into the fact that Buddy kept playing shape to hook himself on a dozen other shots, or to scratch, that gets a bit harder.

We've had Presidents lie to the whole country, IN COURT, on TV, etc...
Does anyone think that Buddy would admit to something this nasty? I can't fault him one bit in denying things. What I can do is look at the evidence of the match and follow some reasoning behind what I see.

There is a lot of convenient ignoring of evidence going on, much like what happens when people who argue for religious view of reality go into debates.

Usually the main thing is "well you were not there so how do you know the earth was not formed in a day?".

A. We all know how Buddy shoots, in a LOT of other pressure matches.
B. We all know what is the "right" shot to get position and not scratch looks like.
C. When a hundred experienced players say the game looks "funny", it maybe IS.
D. Look at the match video, pretty tough to deny any of the shots that Buddy shoots that come close to a hook or a scratch were done by accident. You can see his speed selection was done ONLY to get the hook, not to get shape.

I am sure no-one outside of the people directly involved will know 100% what happened. But I'm 95% sure what went on was not a straight up pool match. That's good enough for me to say that is what happened without any further evidence against it.
 
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