Hitting the Plateau

[trob]

I don't expect to become a world-beater over night or anything like that - but I do expect to become better little bits at a time. I'd just like to know what to practice to yield the maximum results for the 10 hours I do get on a table per week.

Though, when I move in Fall I'll be able to play daily.

I think you are getting the maximum results...this game is so much feel that playing 10 hours a Week especially when your first learning isn't gonna get it done. I don't have think about how I'm gonna do it anymore. I see the line and area I want to put the cue ball and then do it. That just comes from years of playing. I think you'll see that when you move and start to play every day..

 

[Zphix]

I think you are getting the maximum results...this game is so much feel that playing 10 hours a Week especially when your first learning isn't gonna get it done. I don't have think about how I'm gonna do it anymore. I see the line and area I want to put the cue ball and then do it. That just comes from years of playing. I think you'll see that when you move and start to play every day..

It's the same thing when I practice now - I can see the lines on most shots. This has really come to me from watching pros play, and more from watching better league players play.

I know how the CB is going to react off the rails with English, follow, draw, and combinations of.

I just can't always execute, or I'll execute too much/not enough.

Anyhow - I have times (like last night) where things are just flowing and everything feels seamless. I actually ran a rack of 8 ball (stripes ran out, then spotted the 8 and ran the solids out) and did it twice in the span of an hour and a half.

I don't think getting better is a matter of table time, but a matter of what you do with it - same as any other skill.

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

 

[The Renfro]

If you want a good place to start to build a foundation of shots the Pro Book by Bob Henning is a pretty good tool kit... If you just work on the shots in the book and their limits you will start to recognize them when they come up and start playing more on instinct than having to think through every situation.... Recognizing shots and patterns is the thing that likely separates the beginner and advanced player more often than not......

 

[justadub]

Hey, sorry for giving you a hard time earlier. No offence meant. I was actually thinking, subsequent to my last post, that I'd been a bit of a jerk- I remember being desperate to get better, quick, when I was your age, and how frustrating this can be. There are players in this world who, because of a natural talent, just get it. It sounds like this could apply to you, in terms of shot-making anyway. Myself- I spent many years learning how to pocket balls, doing endless drills for cut shots, banks, long pots. I got good, but not consistent enough, and progressed pretty slowly. I, like you, would lose to players with less knowledge, the worst being regularly losing to my brother who only plays once a week, and doesn't even think about pool between sessions. I, on the other hand had the expensive cues (relatively), the books, the dvds and an addiction to trying to watch every pool match on YouTube, every live stream from tournaments all around the world.

This was quite a motivator. Rather than doing potting drills I focused on being able to achieve tight cue ball control. I started with basic drills- lining up balls on the centre line of the table and taking them in turn. This is a good drill for close control- stop shots, shot draw/follow. Another similar drill involves setting up the obs in a circle around the centre of the table and pocketing them all moving the cue ball as little as possible.

Once I got consistent at this I had a couple of drills for moving the cue ball longer distances. One was to throw out balls onto the table (3 to start) and with ball in hand clear the table. Once I was happy with 3 I'd set up 3, 4, 5 etc. The other drill involves placing object balls on the rail, and taking on the same pot on, but trying to contact the obs on the rail with the cue ball after the pott. If I missed I would adjust the amount of English, power etc until I could achieve the canon or come within a ball width say 3 or 4 out of 5 times. This is a great drill for learning patterns and fine tuning spin-control.

I ran these drills for more hours than I care to remember, and some days it sure wasn't much fun. It took a huge amount of self control not to just run rack after rack- but in the long run it sure was worth it. The best thing is, once you get it you just get it. Sure, I still run these drills fairly regularly, but I can spend most of my time playing and enjoying the game. I'm not a world class player, just never will be and wouldn't have the time even if I had the ability- my wife and kids like me to come home once in a while! But, what putting the hours in when I was younger has done, has let me play and compete to a standard I'm happy with without the need to put in the long hours I used to.

Anyway, I wish you good luck, and hope you can get the extra table time you want. If you have the discipline then in sounds like you have the potential to be a great player. I would recommend checking out Dr Dave on YouTube. Plenty of wise words and useful drills.

Mark

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Tap tap tap

 

[Zphix]

Hey, sorry for giving you a hard time earlier. No offence meant. I was actually thinking, subsequent to my last post, that I'd been a bit of a jerk- I remember being desperate to get better, quick, when I was your age, and how frustrating this can be. There are players in this world who, because of a natural talent, just get it. It sounds like this could apply to you, in terms of shot-making anyway. Myself- I spent many years learning how to pocket balls, doing endless drills for cut shots, banks, long pots. I got good, but not consistent enough, and progressed pretty slowly. I, like you, would lose to players with less knowledge, the worst being regularly losing to my brother who only plays once a week, and doesn't even think about pool between sessions. I, on the other hand had the expensive cues (relatively), the books, the dvds and an addiction to trying to watch every pool match on YouTube, every live stream from tournaments all around the world.

This was quite a motivator. Rather than doing potting drills I focused on being able to achieve tight cue ball control. I started with basic drills- lining up balls on the centre line of the table and taking them in turn. This is a good drill for close control- stop shots, shot draw/follow. Another similar drill involves setting up the obs in a circle around the centre of the table and pocketing them all moving the cue ball as little as possible.

Once I got consistent at this I had a couple of drills for moving the cue ball longer distances. One was to throw out balls onto the table (3 to start) and with ball in hand clear the table. Once I was happy with 3 I'd set up 3, 4, 5 etc. The other drill involves placing object balls on the rail, and taking on the same pot on, but trying to contact the obs on the rail with the cue ball after the pott. If I missed I would adjust the amount of English, power etc until I could achieve the canon or come within a ball width say 3 or 4 out of 5 times. This is a great drill for learning patterns and fine tuning spin-control.

I ran these drills for more hours than I care to remember, and some days it sure wasn't much fun. It took a huge amount of self control not to just run rack after rack- but in the long run it sure was worth it. The best thing is, once you get it you just get it. Sure, I still run these drills fairly regularly, but I can spend most of my time playing and enjoying the game. I'm not a world class player, just never will be and wouldn't have the time even if I had the ability- my wife and kids like me to come home once in a while! But, what putting the hours in when I was younger has done, has let me play and compete to a standard I'm happy with without the need to put in the long hours I used to.

Anyway, I wish you good luck, and hope you can get the extra table time you want. If you have the discipline then in sounds like you have the potential to be a great player. I would recommend checking out Dr Dave on YouTube. Plenty of wise words and useful drills.

Mark

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

No offense taken. As you said, I'm someone who does just get it and it's because I love the game and I can absorb it - it's how I've been for nearly everything in my life (martial arts, pool, psychology). It's easy for me to pick up. But then I reach a moral battle where it sounds arrogant to say that though it is true.

Can you explain the OB on the rail drill a bit more though (3rd paragraph)?

I'll definitely be performing the circle ball drill and the others you recommended as well.

Thanks for the help Mark,

-Richard

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Most of you have probably seen my recent rant about my APA SL,and in agreeing that my SL is determined by how well I play under pressure opposed to in practice I now have a goal for myself: which in a nutshell to be as good in matchplay as I am in practice.

Being that I am a 4 under pressure - how exactly do you improve your game?

If I know the theory behind pool ideas, can visualize the table and it's shots, and continue to pick up knowledge about the game -- where do you actually improve?

Someone told me that I'm dedicating myself to the game, and I'm looking to go beyond the point of mere hobby players. Can't remember his exact words but it was definitely a compliment =P

Anyway, because of my dedication, hunger to learn all I can, and hunger to want to improve - what do you actually do to improve?

What's the difference between a 4 and a 7? I've talked to them deeply about pool, and they don't seem to know any more than I do - there tips to me on certain shots are things I already know and use. So what's the difference? Is it just the ability to execute?

Someone give me the ins and outs of this

Thanks,

-Richard

If you are talking about APA skill levels, we first have to point out that the rank of 7 covers a LOT of ground, from high C player to Open player. I am a "7" in 8 ball, and in tournaments I spot most of the other 7's a LOT. That being said, all 7's have a wide variety of skills that most accurately ranked 4's don't have. This includes shot selection, ability to pocket the easy shots almost every time, better cue ball control, etc. Pretty much I would expect a 7 to better at nearly everything than a 4. Deciding what to do and executing that decision are two very different things. However, they are related. Understanding what *exactly* you can do, knowing how precisely you can do it, knowing *exactly* where the cue ball is going instead of mostly where...these things are BIG differences that you might not be placing enough weight on.

My recommendation for practice is to do drills that require you to complete them. In other words, if you have a few hours to spend practicing, select a drill that is medium tough, and don't stop trying it until you run out the drill. An easy one to start with is to just throw out all 15 balls and run them without missing. Next you can graduate to run them out without letting the cue ball touch another ball. Next, don't let the cue ball touch another ball or a rail. The point is, when you really want to stop, and you are getting close to the last balls, and you want so bad to complete the runout...there is quite a bit of pressure there to execute and not miss. Try it out. This can be a form of abuse, but it works. It will build up your resilience and ability to shoot under pressure.

The other huge thing for improving is learning yourself, your game. Come to understand what you do well, what needs work. Be realistic about your percentages on various shots. Develop a killer safety game. *Practice* playing safe a lot. Practice kicking (I like to throw our 15 balls and kick them all in...it takes a while sometimes but boy can you get accurate with that cue ball). Practice your break...is your cueball flying around the table or does it plant right in the center? Figure that out. Point is, you have to identify your weaknesses and practice those. For most people, there is a big tendency to practice the things they are already good at, because it feels good. If you focus on your weaknesses, they will eventually become strengths.

WATCH! Watch people play pool. Watch the 7's. See what they are doing. Try to anticipate their choices. If they do something you don't expect, why did they do it? Ask them! Better yet, watch the pros. There are countless hours of matches on youtube. Learn all the shots you can. Notice when the pros go for it, and when they play safe. Remember that you don't pocket balls anywhere near as well as they do, so you will need to play safe *more*.

I don't thing there is one thing you can do that is more important than paying honest attention to yourself, and being honest about your capabilities.

Anyway, best of luck! Report back!

KMRUNOUT

 

[KRJ]

What's the difference between a 4 and a 7? I've talked to them deeply about pool, and they don't seem to know any more than I do - there tips to me on certain shots are things I already know and use. So what's the difference? Is it just the ability to execute?

Someone give me the ins and outs of this

Thanks,

-Richard

Rich,

I'm giving you honest feedback here. I think you believe you know more than you do. You are 19 years old, and you really believe, as an APA 4, that you know as much as good APA 7's ?? Really ? They could not begin to tell you what you don't know... not exactly the easiest thing to "sum" up in a conversation. I know apa 4's that can shoot as straight as an arrow, but the rest of their game is "off".

You can't possibly know everything already, it's just not possible. Even your "pattern" play is far from perfect, heck, most folks are. I play with a guy who is 70 years old, and I defy anyone that can run a rack of 8ball in a more efficient manner....He's been a strong player for several decades and owned a pool room... at 70 he had the highest win percentage in prolly the toughest league in the Chicago area (ACS League)

he just "see's it" before he walks to the table... a learned skill over several decades, that you may or may not be able to do one day.... and that is OK... I can't see the patterns like him and most likely never will, and that's ok, I've not played as much pool as this man, or devoted such a big part of my life to pool.

If you are not learning something new everyday in pool, you have stopped trying

 

[ScottK]

Take a look at some of the things you've said:

If I know the theory behind pool ideas, can visualize the table and it's shots, and continue to pick up knowledge about the game...

What's the difference between a 4 and a 7? I've talked to them deeply about pool, and they don't seem to know any more than I do...

You don't know what you don't know. So stop saying you know it. Sevens know a metric f*cking shit ton more than you know. It seems to you like they don't know any more than you, but that is simply your own ignorance at play.

I have knowledge down - a good analogy would be I have proven theory without personal experimentation.

Again, you don't know what you don't know. To say, or try to convince yourself otherwise, is detrimental to the task at hand.

I'm sorry that you feel that I'm ignoring advice because I'm not - everything is given it's proper attention and I can sift through loads of information and retain it all. Every piece of advice I've gotten is up there - from all of it I've made a snap decision.

Some advice on drills I've gotten yields very little results

And...

I don't expect to become a world-beater over night or anything like that

You are ignoring the advice you've gotten here. You just joined the site in March. At best you've been soliciting advice for three months, maybe four.
You're right about one thing, you're making snap decisions. The suggestions have yielded very little results because you are in search of a magic pill where none exists.
You do want to become a world beater overnight, and that just does not happen. For most people it doesn't happen even with years and years of work.

It's the same thing when I practice now - I can see the lines on most shots.

I know how the CB is going to react off the rails with English, follow, draw, and combinations of.

I don't think getting better is a matter of table time, but a matter of what you do with it - same as any other skill.

No offense taken. As you said, I'm someone who does just get it and it's because I love the game and I can absorb it - it's how I've been for nearly everything in my life (martial arts, pool, psychology). It's easy for me to pick up.

More I know, I know, I know.

You don't know. If you did, you'd be able to do it. I realize you're asking for help in gaining knowledge and skills. I admire that, but the first step in gaining knowledge or learning a skill is to admit you don't have said knowledge, nor possess said skill.

You started this thread off pretty strong, admitting you agree you're an APA 4. You couldn't even make it to the end of the first post before you started trying to convince yourself you know everything again. I'll say this again, for what I believe is the third time in one of your threads:
Perhaps the worst thing you can do is to believe you are better at this game than you actually are.

You want to take a journey to becoming a great pool player, that's great. But you can't take the first step until you recognize where you're starting.
Start being honest with yourself about your ability. It takes time to get to a high level, much more than three months.

 

[easy-e]

Zphix, do you mind if I ask what you do for a living?

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Dude you can't get to the pool table 2 to 3 times a week and expect to get good. There's a point in every players life that they played every day to get to a high level..then they can play a couple times week and play well. Your expectation are to high if thats all the time your getting in. I still play 7 days a week but I'm fortunate to have a table at home.

I don't expect to become a world-beater over night or anything like that - but I do expect to become better little bits at a time. I'd just like to know what to practice to yield the maximum results for the 10 hours I do get on a table per week.

Though, when I move in Fall I'll be able to play daily.

Zphix,

When you can play daily or even 5-6 days per week your game will improve automatically. As much as you try to improve and as much as you try to absorb & learn it will come to you naturally. You will find through the years that you will reach a plateau for a year or two and then reach another for a year or two and so on.

Contrary to everything written in this thread there's really nothing you can practice to get better if you can only play 10 hours per week. It's simply not enough time to get the reps you need to get better. At this point in time (before you move), when you can only play 10 hours per week I would suggest to you that you learn to play three-cushion billiards. Learn several simple "diamond systems" like the "corner 5" so you learn precisely where your cueball is going instead of guessing at an area. That will show great rewards in the future when you know for a fact where your cueball is going instead of just sending it to an area. Just the confidence gained from this simple thing will improve your game.

When you can play everyday start another thread about 6 months in and let us know your progress. It takes many years to improve for us mere mortals who have jobs, families, house notes, car insurance and so forth.

P.S. One of the best things you can do to improve is to gamble with better players as cheap as you can and while receiving a little weight. Do expect to pay for your education, everybody does, in all walks of life.

ONB

 

[nobcitypool]

I don't expect to become a world-beater over night or anything like that - but I do expect to become better little bits at a time. I'd just like to know what to practice to yield the maximum results for the 10 hours I do get on a table per week.

Though, when I move in Fall I'll be able to play daily.

Practice your stroke and fundamentals. I've never seen a 4 with a straight stroke or solid fundamentals. They wouldn't be a 4 if they did. When you can stroke straight, consistently and under pressure, everything else will come together.

 

[victorl]

I think the best thing you can do is find an instructor who can help solidify your fundamentals and give you a proper practice routine.

Or if you can't do that, post a video of yourself playing (not just your best runouts, but misses and mistakes as well) and you'll get lots of useful feedback on your stance, stroke, decision-making, etc. which will give you a ton of stuff to work on.

I think we really are a helpful bunch here and like giving out advice (sometimes a little too much) as long as aspiring players show humility and the desire to learn. At some point, you will start to realize how much dedication, focus and precision is required to play pool at a truly high level, and that's when you'll start to see improvement in your game.

 

[Zphix]

I'll reply a few days from now after thinking everything through.

 

[pfduser]

When I started to get serious about my game I was 14 years old. Saved my money up from cutting grass and helping my father roof houses and bought me a pool table. I started playing everyday. As soon as I got home from school and got my chores done I started playing till bedtime.(10pm). I played 15 hours a day on weekends. Summer months I played 10-15 hours a day all summer. I started going to the pool room at 15 years old. Played and gambled everybody I could. Gained their respect and they started helping me. Got good real quick after that. Point is all I did was shoot pool just about everyday until I got married in 2003. You have to pay your dues kid. Everybody that's any good at this game does. How dedicated are you?

 

[prewarhero]

People reach a plateau because they have reached the limit of what their current foundation will provide them. Your current level is devised of things like:
How close to the exact point on the CB you hit from your intended spot
Your focus
The straightness of your stroke
The the smoothness of your transition
The control of your speed

The list can go on and on. Watching better players play will not improve your game from a plateau by any meaningful level until your improve on the above mentioned items. It starts with improving those issues.

improve how you move the cue and develop a better repeatable stoke that delivers under pressure.

Most of your drills do not even need to involve an ob.

 

[trob]

If you want a good place to start to build a foundation of shots the Pro Book by Bob Henning is a pretty good tool kit... If you just work on the shots in the book and their limits you will start to recognize them when they come up and start playing more on instinct than having to think through every situation.... Recognizing shots and patterns is the thing that likely separates the beginner and advanced player more often than not......

yep... 6 years a go I would have been maybe an apa 7 (9 ball) if I was playing in that league back then.Now I'm a 9 because I finally came to the conclusion then that my position play was good enough to play good 8 ball but not 9 ball. I watched his video on the sweet 16l shots I think he called it. I still do those shots every day at the end of practice. He was absolulty right. The shots come up all the time and once you know them the game just simples itself. not only that but you will be able to make the adjustments to get around balls and change your line. I used to guess when using the rails.. Now I KNOW! It was amazing when I first realized I could go three rails aiming for a diamond and hit it. I thought that was a feel for the game I couldn't attain. His books and video's are the gospel in my opinion.

I was also fortunate to have bought target pool 20 years ago that was collecting dust lol I broke that out on a daily basis and that was a great teacher as well.

 

[BJTyler]

Zphyx:

I noticed that you list Chess as one of your hobbies. May I ask how long you have been playing and what your current rating is? I'm wondering if it might give some insight into your current frustrations in getting better at pool.

 

[Zphix]

Zphyx:

I noticed that you list Chess as one of your hobbies. May I ask how long you have been playing and what your current rating is? I'm wondering if it might give some insight into your current frustrations in getting better at pool.

Certainly - I've been playing for about 13 years, and playing seriously for about 3. Currently I'm a 1500 in the ELO rating system.

To everyone else,

It's not easy for me to say that I don't know what I don't know - simply because I don't know it. Everything in my head I believe I know and it's in my personality to take knowledge very seriously. When I know something I tend to know it backwards and forwards but I'm starting to understand that pool is different.

I concede that I don't know as much as I think because I would, inevitably, be able to do everything I think I can.

At this point I'm not exactly sure what to do to get better - drills, fundamentals, improving stroke, etc. Especially with the limited table time I have.

 

[ScottK]

Certainly - I've been playing for about 13 years, and playing seriously for about 3. Currently I'm a 1500 in the ELO rating system.

To everyone else,

It's not easy for me to say that I don't know what I don't know - simply because I don't know it. Everything in my head I believe I know and it's in my personality to take knowledge very seriously. When I know something I tend to know it backwards and forwards but I'm starting to understand that pool is different.

I concede that I don't know as much as I think because I would, inevitably, be able to do everything I think I can.

At this point I'm not exactly sure what to do to get better - drills, fundamentals, improving stroke, etc. Especially with the limited table time I have.

We'll talk on Wednesday.

 

[sparkle84]

If you are talking about APA skill levels, we first have to point out that the rank of 7 covers a LOT of ground, from high C player to Open player.

KMRUNOUT

How true. It should also be pointed out that the overwhelming majority of APA 7's fall into the high C/ low B category. Which means that most of them aren't well versed in the intricacies of the game. The thing about leagues is that it's not really conducive to learning about pool. Most league players aren't interested in getting better (and most don't) they're interested in a night out socializing with friends. Nothing wrong with that but for someone who really wants to learn the game their time could be better spent exploring other avenues.

If the pool bug has got you and you're truly sincere about improving you probably need to change direction a bit. Having good fundamentals and a straight stroke isn't essential to improving but without them improvement will proceed at a snails pace. You don't seem the type that wants that so you absolutely must get with a qualified instructor to find out where you stand in that area. If that means quitting playing for a month and saving the money you would have spent then maybe that's what you should do.

Another option is to find someone to tape you and post a video in the Ask the instructor forum and get some feedback that way.

Find the best player you can and attempt to make friends with them. I'm not talking about typical APA 7's but guys who would absolutely destroy them on the table. Hopefully there's a guy or 2 in your area like that.
Try to get friendly with them before starting to ask questions about pool. When pool is talked about then explain your situation honestly. Don't ask them to play. Ask if they're not busy could they watch you for awhile and evaluate where you're at and what do they think you should work on. If they do get on the table with you make sure you pick up the time &/or drinks.

Pool is a lot more complicated than you think and if you can get friendly with a guy like that so he's willing to work with you it will reap huge benefits.

Nobody here has seen you play so it's impossible to give advice. At your level I'd guess that just about any drill would lead to some improvement in some area. You asked for tips/drills for position play before so I'll tell you what the 1st step is for learning to play position. Stop shots. To play good position you must be able to execute stop shots at all speeds and distances. Every time. That's where everything starts. Everything is an extension off of that baseline. If that baseline is flawed then the extensions off it will also be flawed.

Good Luck