maybe.........................
- Thread starter trinacria
- Start date
Banks
Banned
Associations do charge for membership. In their billing, they'll often have an additional line for a PAC. With membership typically comes information on trade shows, networking and other industry updates and news, plus some advertising opportunities. Considering the average cost of what I see being in the $500/year range, that's not even noticeable. Just another marketing expense. Of course, those associations have something to add. Asking a small hall to pony up $24k a year is nothing short of absurd. I'm beginning to think that the problem with pool is the disconnect players have from reality.
If you notice....
If you notice in my first post on this I specifically stated that the problem is knowing you can trust the governing body.
That's the problem and it goes to what is the gist of the thread the core problem.
When everyone in billiards has proven to be a hustler/conman and just out for number one how do you trust that this time it will be different???
Then you end up having to wait for a white knight. Someone who can come in with millions and prove for a substantial period that he's not trying to screw everyone over.
Of course we've had those that ended up not panning out all that well too, so what do you do???
I have some ideas and have talked about them before.
Jaden
Ah yes, well, now lets discuss the trust that I need to place in the governing body. Surely you're joking. You bring this up as if there's no precedent to look back upon.
Nationwide marketing costs big bucks. Unfortunately, your idea needs to be implemented by someone with those big bucks to spend, but is also willing to get virtually nothing in return. Let's face it, what does this organizing body really get from this if they actually use the funds for the greater good? Remember, that organizing body is nothing more than the people who operate it. In this case, probably quite few.
So you need someone with tons of cash for marketing, willing to volunteer their time.
Imo, the most successful such venture that's organized and nationwide would be the Valley leagues. Unfortunately, those leagues are almost all in bars and don't cater to the younger player who needs exposed to the game. Great idea, wrong demographic. And, they too have difficulty in getting players even with the handicap system they use. If you ask me, the difficulty with leagues is it becomes recreation on a schedule. Now that recreation feels a little like a job. And any honest person here will admit to the fact that it can sometimes make scheduling the rest of your life a pita.
I'd say a better idea is to wait until the big events that already exist are overflowing and turning away players. Let the promoters of those events set the tone for smaller ones. A well organized event is a great barometer for how the industry is really going. The way for that to happen is to get the players to do the legwork and get others involved in playing. Not an easy thing to do. But, that's the group that needs to step up and help bring more shooters to the game. I know I've brought at least half a dozen players to the game. Most don't play any more, but if each of them did the same, you get the idea. And, why don't people do that? Well, because there's no benefit to them for doing it. Just like there's no benefit for a room owner to pay your tax. You need a special type of person willing to do something for the game, for nothing.
If you notice in my first post on this I specifically stated that the problem is knowing you can trust the governing body.
That's the problem and it goes to what is the gist of the thread the core problem.
When everyone in billiards has proven to be a hustler/conman and just out for number one how do you trust that this time it will be different???
Then you end up having to wait for a white knight. Someone who can come in with millions and prove for a substantial period that he's not trying to screw everyone over.
Of course we've had those that ended up not panning out all that well too, so what do you do???
I have some ideas and have talked about them before.
Jaden
I've met pros and seriously talented players who are in the american sense of success or at least respectability which are basically losers. Broke as a teenager, living on couches, no car, no girlfriend/wife/kids and ragged clothes and dirty shoes. being a pool player doesn't bring with it a sense of pride in todays culture. and everything is magnified on the web. I love this game, its people and the challenge it brings. I never said i was ashamed, read between the lines.
don't have too, WPA, BCA, etc...
I don't see events getting bigger, only smaller. all im saying is, if theres money to help promote the game, which has to start with the top talent when it comes to sports, it will be a benefit for the businesses of its industry. sameway when the color of money came out in theaters and there was a boom, people need to know that its actually happening, that poolhalls exist. snooker players are respected in england, they make a couple millions by the end of their careers, why not here.Ah yes, well, now lets discuss the trust that I need to place in the governing body. Surely you're joking. You bring this up as if there's no precedent to look back upon.
Nationwide marketing costs big bucks. Unfortunately, your idea needs to be implemented by someone with those big bucks to spend, but is also willing to get virtually nothing in return. Let's face it, what does this organizing body really get from this if they actually use the funds for the greater good? Remember, that organizing body is nothing more than the people who operate it. In this case, probably quite few.
So you need someone with tons of cash for marketing, willing to volunteer their time.
Imo, the most successful such venture that's organized and nationwide would be the Valley leagues. Unfortunately, those leagues are almost all in bars and don't cater to the younger player who needs exposed to the game. Great idea, wrong demographic. And, they too have difficulty in getting players even with the handicap system they use. If you ask me, the difficulty with leagues is it becomes recreation on a schedule. Now that recreation feels a little like a job. And any honest person here will admit to the fact that it can sometimes make scheduling the rest of your life a pita.
I'd say a better idea is to wait until the big events that already exist are overflowing and turning away players. Let the promoters of those events set the tone for smaller ones. A well organized event is a great barometer for how the industry is really going. The way for that to happen is to get the players to do the legwork and get others involved in playing. Not an easy thing to do. But, that's the group that needs to step up and help bring more shooters to the game. I know I've brought at least half a dozen players to the game. Most don't play any more, but if each of them did the same, you get the idea. And, why don't people do that? Well, because there's no benefit to them for doing it. Just like there's no benefit for a room owner to pay your tax. You need a special type of person willing to do something for the game, for nothing.
I hate it...
I hate when I mention to people that I'm a semi-pro pool player that they then start referring to me as the hustler or the pool shark.
I correct them and make sure they know what those terms mean but that just showcases the cultural stigma that has stuck to billiards at the highest level in the minds of the public.
Jaden
I hate when I mention to people that I'm a semi-pro pool player that they then start referring to me as the hustler or the pool shark.
I correct them and make sure they know what those terms mean but that just showcases the cultural stigma that has stuck to billiards at the highest level in the minds of the public.
Jaden
That subject gets discussed often in interviews with Johnny Archer and the like. Unfortunately, pool has earned that stigma. I cannot think of any other game where playing it almost requires that you play players better than yourself for money or you can't join in. Does every pick-up basketball game in the park ride on wagers? Every baseball game or softball game? What other games are there where you require cash to get involved, every time? So, whatever reputation the game has, I'm pretty sure it earned. Even when I play with my friends, it's always for 'something'. Might not be much, but it ain't for free unless I know I'm going to beat them, since I really don't care about it. But if I'm playing a stronger player, you can bet it ain't for nuthin.
Btw, I don't "Hustle". Never did. I do play for money, but I'm trying to win, period. And I make no bones about it.
More then anything they speak with one voice. I have stood in front of a city commission trying to get a variance to open a pool room and I am there totally by myself talking to people who have no idea what I am talking about. Be nice to have 5000 brothers with statistics and success stories standing along side me supporting me.
To the average person pool is completely mysterious. They know nothing more about it then what they have as preconceived ideas from the movies or myth.
There is power in numbers for things like purchasing insurance and organizing events to promote your business and sport. Linking with things like charities and positive image improvement as well as exposure for players that can be parlayed into more opportunities. To be honest there are no down sides.
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^^^^
Mac,
Fair enough, but really what the op was referring to was something that would have effect on the end user (customer). You are suggesting (quite correctly) that there needs to be some trade organization, but how to start it and what it would do is big question. Pool is in a catch 22 where it needs marketing to gain players, and needs players to do and fund the marketing. If some of the companies making products were swimming in cash, I'm sure they'd have no trouble with forking over marketing funds. But there doesn't appear to be surplus of such companies making pool gear. I certainly don't have the answers.
Mac,
Fair enough, but really what the op was referring to was something that would have effect on the end user (customer). You are suggesting (quite correctly) that there needs to be some trade organization, but how to start it and what it would do is big question. Pool is in a catch 22 where it needs marketing to gain players, and needs players to do and fund the marketing. If some of the companies making products were swimming in cash, I'm sure they'd have no trouble with forking over marketing funds. But there doesn't appear to be surplus of such companies making pool gear. I certainly don't have the answers.
Jaden, I normally agree with a lot of your posts, so I truly am not arguing with you just for something to do... Having said that:
You call this a "business expense". I also assume this would be voluntary. So a voluntary business expense would then be deemed an "investment", in my eyes...
As an "investment", sell me on it. You have the floor, and have my attention.
Tell me what my expected ROI (Return On Investment) is?
Tell me what my expected time frame for said ROI is?
It would be esoteric...
Believe me, if I decided to put something like this together, I could sell it.
I'm not trying to sell anything, I just think that it could be in a businesses best interests to get involved in something like this if it is put together the right way and would truly help to bolster an overall interest in billiards.
More interest in billiards means more people wanting to play, and people already playing wanting to play more often and that means more people in pool halls patronizing those businesses.
If I were to be putting something like this together, I would have a website that offered free instruction and would promote the member businesses on the website during and as a part of any events we had, we would hold qualifiers in the member pool halls establishments
We would mention member businesses during events, list them and our links to them in flyers and promotions.
It would definitely be both esoterically and directly beneficial to the member businesses if I were to put something like this together.
Jaden
p.s. If done right, something like this could also become the definitive body for professional pool in the US.
Believe me, if I decided to put something like this together, I could sell it.
I'm not trying to sell anything, I just think that it could be in a businesses best interests to get involved in something like this if it is put together the right way and would truly help to bolster an overall interest in billiards.
More interest in billiards means more people wanting to play, and people already playing wanting to play more often and that means more people in pool halls patronizing those businesses.
If I were to be putting something like this together, I would have a website that offered free instruction and would promote the member businesses on the website during and as a part of any events we had, we would hold qualifiers in the member pool halls establishments
We would mention member businesses during events, list them and our links to them in flyers and promotions.
It would definitely be both esoterically and directly beneficial to the member businesses if I were to put something like this together.
Jaden
p.s. If done right, something like this could also become the definitive body for professional pool in the US.
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Given what I saw in one thread where a person mentioned that rent for a building to put a room in might be as high as 20k/month, I think the business to get into is renting buildings to pool rooms. Do you know how much building you can buy for 20k/month? That's a nice big building mister. Even for 3k/month, you could put a lot of pool tables into a building that size.
Another problem I see is that table time in rooms is sometimes higher by the hour than the wages of the people playing on them. How does anyone think that is going to be fun? If the room I go to didn't offer a special for daily rates (play as long as you like at one price) I'd never go. And my rate for a day is the same as the rate for an hour for a table. Though for me it is for one person and for a table it's for any number of people.
Putting quarters in a table isn't any cheaper... That is some serious hourly rate when you start stringing racks with someone.
Another problem I see is that table time in rooms is sometimes higher by the hour than the wages of the people playing on them. How does anyone think that is going to be fun? If the room I go to didn't offer a special for daily rates (play as long as you like at one price) I'd never go. And my rate for a day is the same as the rate for an hour for a table. Though for me it is for one person and for a table it's for any number of people.
Putting quarters in a table isn't any cheaper... That is some serious hourly rate when you start stringing racks with someone.
That's why when I started playing back in the '80s I love the BB...I'd go to the busiest bars with several tables where all tables ended up being challenge tables...place is packed, wall to wall, loud rock/roll or country music blaring, put in my .50 cents, play for a beer on each game and play/drink all night for just half a buck. Play for $5-10 a rack and you could rack up a pretty nice score. Man I miss those days.... :thumbup:
Did the same in the 90s, my local haunt had free pool on Tuesdays, but I always joked, "every night is free pool night for me in here". Truth is, when you're winning that much, you're doing nothing for your game. Probably more of a disservice.
On the lines of trying to get more people to play, I don't think either of us helped matters. Though I have to admit, that same bar table was packed every night then, and now that I have not played there in years, the people I played with don't any more either, it gets way less traffic than it used to. Maybe the people enjoyed it more when there was more challenge, but at least at the time it didn't seem so.
I tried to put together a well thought out reply, but for some reason the AZ site is not allowing it.. I'll try to save it and put it in later...
(In Black) From Jadens post above:
Believe me, if I decided to put something like this together, I could sell it.
I dont doubt it :thumbup:
I'm not trying to sell anything,
I understand your personally not trying to sell anything, I simply was offering a hypothetical, with you as the seller and me as the potential buyer/customer (which I would be)..)
I just think that it could be in a businesses best interests to get involved in something like this if it is put together the right way and would truly help to bolster an overall interest in billiards.
Again, this sounds good, but is just fluff to a business owner making a decision as to spend what little (if any) money is left at the end of the month. I realize people do not like to hear this, but a business owner has very little interest in doing thing for the industry as a whole. He/She is simply concerned with his or her OWN bottom line, and putting food on the table for their family. It might be different if the pool hall business was even remotely profitable, but it isnt. Most hall owners are doing it for the love of the game, and have long ago given up the dream of making a good living as a hall owner. Their actually ALREADY doing their part for pool, by offering you a place to play the sport we all love, usually at a break even salary..
More interest in billiards means more people wanting to play, and people already playing wanting to play more often and that means more people in pool halls patronizing those businesses.
Sound good, but prove it. Show me my expected ROI in dollars, not hypotheticals, and a realistic time frame... There are much better ways to do this, and it would be on a local level, not a national scale. The easiest (but not the cheapest) way would be to simple offer the best equipment possible to your customers. This is what I do, and have done. I installed brand new Diamonds (Smart tables), Delta Elite racks, Aramith Super Pros, Aramith Red Circle Cue balls (or a Pro Cup, "measels ball", if you'd prefer). Good lighting, Clean (and safe) environment, good food, reasonable prices ($6 an hour for 1 person, $7 an hour for more than 1 / OR $1 per game, and clean equipment (balls get cleaned 4 times a week in our double dish Diamond Ball Cleaner, and swapped out for new ones every 12-14 months, Tables are cleaned daily, and new Simonis 860hr installed every 15-18 months..). NOW, having said all that, I have the best place around my area, by far, and have a lot of regular players. But I do it because I personally love pool, and want to personally play on the best and attract the best players around. If I didnt love pool, it would in no way EVER be worth the investment I made/make. Not even close.. But, luckily for pool in my area, my money is made from my bar and kitchen, and subsidizes the pool (Yes, I realize pool players do drink and eat, and that is of course factored into the overall equation. We all know pool players as a group are VERY frugal, and I'll leave it at that...)
If I were to be putting something like this together, I would have a website that offered free instruction and would promote the member businesses on the website during and as a part of any events we had, we would hold qualifiers in the member pool halls establishments
We would mention member businesses during events, list them and our links to them in flyers and promotions.
All Sounds good, but more in line with joining a 'club' or something. Promoting a pool hall nationally is cool to show people, but doesnt do much for the bottom line since pool halls are a local business type of thing.
It would definitely be both esoterically and directly beneficial to the member businesses if I were to put something like this together.
Jaden
p.s. If done right, something like this could also become the definitive body for professional pool in the US.
This is my biggest point of contention here (As the potential customer). Pool halls make money from bangers and league players, plain and simple. Pool hall business owners (and their customers) are so far detached from professional pool as can be. Professional pool has never done, and will never do ANYTHING to add to the bottom line of a room owner, yet this is the tree your suggesting barking up for money? It aint happening... I hate to tell you, but I can guarantee you that 99% of my pool customers (bangers and league players) couldnt name 5 current Pro Players. Probably couldnt even name 3 for that matter (and I've paid to have more than that come into my place to do meet n greets...)....
You'd be better off putting something together to appeal to a larger customer/donor base, at a lower price point. Like ALL pool players, not just room owners, and asking in the $10-$25 range for membership. Of course, like anything, you'd have to offer them something for their money, but that could be figured out..
Im honestly not trying to be a wet blanket here, but speak to this idea from a perspective of someone this idea would target for support.. It just doesnt do it for my dollars... Sorry.. :shrug:
Believe me, if I decided to put something like this together, I could sell it.
I dont doubt it :thumbup:
I'm not trying to sell anything,
I understand your personally not trying to sell anything, I simply was offering a hypothetical, with you as the seller and me as the potential buyer/customer (which I would be)..)
I just think that it could be in a businesses best interests to get involved in something like this if it is put together the right way and would truly help to bolster an overall interest in billiards.
Again, this sounds good, but is just fluff to a business owner making a decision as to spend what little (if any) money is left at the end of the month. I realize people do not like to hear this, but a business owner has very little interest in doing thing for the industry as a whole. He/She is simply concerned with his or her OWN bottom line, and putting food on the table for their family. It might be different if the pool hall business was even remotely profitable, but it isnt. Most hall owners are doing it for the love of the game, and have long ago given up the dream of making a good living as a hall owner. Their actually ALREADY doing their part for pool, by offering you a place to play the sport we all love, usually at a break even salary..
More interest in billiards means more people wanting to play, and people already playing wanting to play more often and that means more people in pool halls patronizing those businesses.
Sound good, but prove it. Show me my expected ROI in dollars, not hypotheticals, and a realistic time frame... There are much better ways to do this, and it would be on a local level, not a national scale. The easiest (but not the cheapest) way would be to simple offer the best equipment possible to your customers. This is what I do, and have done. I installed brand new Diamonds (Smart tables), Delta Elite racks, Aramith Super Pros, Aramith Red Circle Cue balls (or a Pro Cup, "measels ball", if you'd prefer). Good lighting, Clean (and safe) environment, good food, reasonable prices ($6 an hour for 1 person, $7 an hour for more than 1 / OR $1 per game, and clean equipment (balls get cleaned 4 times a week in our double dish Diamond Ball Cleaner, and swapped out for new ones every 12-14 months, Tables are cleaned daily, and new Simonis 860hr installed every 15-18 months..). NOW, having said all that, I have the best place around my area, by far, and have a lot of regular players. But I do it because I personally love pool, and want to personally play on the best and attract the best players around. If I didnt love pool, it would in no way EVER be worth the investment I made/make. Not even close.. But, luckily for pool in my area, my money is made from my bar and kitchen, and subsidizes the pool (Yes, I realize pool players do drink and eat, and that is of course factored into the overall equation. We all know pool players as a group are VERY frugal, and I'll leave it at that...)
If I were to be putting something like this together, I would have a website that offered free instruction and would promote the member businesses on the website during and as a part of any events we had, we would hold qualifiers in the member pool halls establishments
We would mention member businesses during events, list them and our links to them in flyers and promotions.
All Sounds good, but more in line with joining a 'club' or something. Promoting a pool hall nationally is cool to show people, but doesnt do much for the bottom line since pool halls are a local business type of thing.
It would definitely be both esoterically and directly beneficial to the member businesses if I were to put something like this together.
Jaden
p.s. If done right, something like this could also become the definitive body for professional pool in the US.
This is my biggest point of contention here (As the potential customer). Pool halls make money from bangers and league players, plain and simple. Pool hall business owners (and their customers) are so far detached from professional pool as can be. Professional pool has never done, and will never do ANYTHING to add to the bottom line of a room owner, yet this is the tree your suggesting barking up for money? It aint happening... I hate to tell you, but I can guarantee you that 99% of my pool customers (bangers and league players) couldnt name 5 current Pro Players. Probably couldnt even name 3 for that matter (and I've paid to have more than that come into my place to do meet n greets...)....
You'd be better off putting something together to appeal to a larger customer/donor base, at a lower price point. Like ALL pool players, not just room owners, and asking in the $10-$25 range for membership. Of course, like anything, you'd have to offer them something for their money, but that could be figured out..
Im honestly not trying to be a wet blanket here, but speak to this idea from a perspective of someone this idea would target for support.. It just doesnt do it for my dollars... Sorry.. :shrug:
exactly, "cultural stigma" is the right way of putting it. and its as bad for a pool player as being a junkie, no, being a junkie people feel bad for you and try to help you. its worst than that.
I think you should be in government. You've got all kinds of great ideas that other people should pay for. Tax the room owners, tax the leagues, tax anything related to pool.
But don't worry, the money will be spent by a "trustworthy governing body." Yeah, right.
right, but when your fat ass gets sick because you eat too many cheeseburgers and it costs 80 grand, than its ok to spend others people taxes, or when you get into an accident and it costs more thousands, its ok to spend money, or when a war goes on for no reason and it cost 340 million a day, its ok, bc ur american and america is great, or a stupid ****ing parade or a clock in the plaza or any other thing, but when it comes to something you love and join a forum to discuss its daily happenings, than its a stupid idea and you roll your eyes.
I don't understand people sometimes. being cynical and being indifferent are two different things. by the way, taxes are what makes the world go 'round, who pays the cops, fireman, emt, garbage man, etc.... they are indispensable and im not trying to compare the two, but when something fails over and over, but it has a large enough following, it can be made to work, if people are willing to contribute.
Good post. I agree that it would be difficult but that would be a great method to get something going. Your post reminded me of this:
Herding cats while on magic mushrooms
it seems what im saying is it would benefit the player, when the complete opposite is true, a player needs a room to play in. the end effect would be the room owner will be the one to benefit the most. another post said the room owners are the biggest power collectively.