Stop recommending Players HXT?

[mortuarymike-nv]

Players warranty

Curious as to the thoughts of anyone who 'd like to chime in.

I had the tip on my HXT skinny shaft replaced this week by a local cue repair guy. While trimming the new tip, the tenon on the HXT shaft snapped. Without consulting me, the repair guy cut a new tenon and installed a new ferrule. For those who may be unaware, the low deflection technology in an HXT shaft is, in fact, the ferrule. It's a hollow, polymer filled design. So, the shaft is no longer low deflection.

I called Players today to find out if the shaft would be repaired or replaced under warranty. I was told it probably would have been if I'd have just sent the shaft and broken tenon/ferrule/tip in for examination. However, since the repair man took it upon himself to fix it, the shaft is no longer covered under warranty.

I'm not particularly mad at anyone involved. Things happen and I think the repair guy tried to do what he could to make the situation right at the time. However, he is apparently unfamiliar with the correct process for replacing a tip on an HXT ferrule.

Similarly, I can understand Players position. There is no way for them to determine what exactly happened. But, I do have the ferrule with the tenon inside and a partially trimmed tip installed. It seems fairly obvious as to what transpired here. And it seems to me like a problem that should be covered under warranty.

So, what do you think? Stop recommending the HXT shaft? Not because it's not a good shaft, but this could happen to any repair guy, unknowingly voiding a customers warranty. At very least any recommendation of these shaft now requires a footnote for when tip replacement time comes around. Or, do I "blame" the repair man? He did a very nice job with the new ferrule and tip by the way, so he seems competent enough. Perhaps he should have recognized he was in unfamiliar territory with this shaft and acted accordingly.

Thoughts?

I had a players shaft warp like a broken finger, at least a 15 degree bend.
I called up players and ran down all the info like who and when did I bought the cue.
And they said go ahead and send it in.

The company that I bought it from was closing its doors when I bought it, Keystone cue and cushion.
After the cue got there they denied the warranty because of where I bought it......
I told them to send me my cue back and the said they threw it away..................

There is a good chance the factory would of denied your warranty for any reason they could come up with anyway.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Fortunately, he isn't "my repair guy." Nor is he likely to be in the future. I think I'll just buy a lathe.

Don't be too hard on the repair guy. It isn't that easy to snap a tenon, mind you, it can be done, but I doubt he would put enuff pressure on a tenon just facing it off.

It was most likely a defect and he was the unfortunate recipient of your shaft.

Sure, he should have called you, but as Mike mentioned, you probably wouldn't have gotten warranty anyway. He was just trying to do the right thing for his customer.

I replaced a tenon for a guy. The last person that put a ferrule on for him took a chunk of wood out of the tenon. I could have put a ferrule over top of it but if that ferrule ever needed to be replaced, I didn't want anyone to think that I was the last person to work on the cue.

There was no problem there and the owner was happy that I took the initiative to do it proper for him.

I told him that the tenon job was free but he insisted on paying me for it anyway.

But yes, please buy a lathe and then you can also go thru the learning process and realize that altho it isn't exactly Rocket Science, there is more craftsmanship to it than meets the eye.

Then when you FK Shit up, you can have no one to blame but yourself. I'd like to see you tune your lathe up so it runs Dead Nuts and then put a ferrule on and not turn it into something that looks like a Bugle.

Sounds like your repairman will also be better off for it.

If it had have been a factory defect and you snapped the tenon off while playing, you probably would have left it up to the repairman to find the proper replacement ferrule for you and then he would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Can't win for losing somtimes eh?

 

[trinacria]

Stop recommending your cue repair guy

correct.......ive had similar happen to me, safe to say the guy is no longer in business. not bc of me, just didn't know what he was doing, his rep got to Pruhliere levels of bad.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Trin, what exactly did the repairman do that was so bad as compared to the guy you mentioned. Sounds like 2 different dimensions here.

He made a mistake and is easy to do when working with wood and customers.

It sounds like his only mistake was not calling the owner of the shaft before taking the initiative to make it right, otherwise, it sounded like he did a nice job on the replacement ferrule.

Who is to say that the tenon wasn't a factory defect anyway.

Thats exactly why many repairmen won't touch a cue made in China these days, just not worth the hassle that they potentially can bring you.

 

[zpele]

Trin, what exactly did the repairman do that was so bad as compared to the guy you mentioned. Sounds like 2 different dimensions here.

He made a mistake and is easy to do when working with wood and customers.

It sounds like his only mistake was not calling the owner of the shaft before taking the initiative to make it right, otherwise, it sounded like he did a nice job on the replacement ferrule.

Who is to say that the tenon wasn't a factory defect anyway.

Thats exactly why many repairmen won't touch a cue made in China these days, just not worth the hassle that they potentially can bring you.

Respectfully that 'small mistake' he made was a rather large one. Because of that mistake no one will ever know if it was a defect or just his **** up.

I'm sorry but glossing over the mistake of not calling the customer is not realistic in this scenario nor would it be in any other career.

 

[ScottK]

Don't be too hard on the repair guy. It isn't that easy to snap a tenon, mind you, it can be done, but I doubt he would put enuff pressure on a tenon just facing it off.

It was most likely a defect and he was the unfortunate recipient of your shaft.

Sure, he should have called you, but as Mike mentioned, you probably wouldn't have gotten warranty anyway. He was just trying to do the right thing for his customer.

I replaced a tenon for a guy. The last person that put a ferrule on for him took a chunk of wood out of the tenon. I could have put a ferrule over top of it but if that ferrule ever needed to be replaced, I didn't want anyone to think that I was the last person to work on the cue.

There was no problem there and the owner was happy that I took the initiative to do it proper for him.

I told him that the tenon job was free but he insisted on paying me for it anyway.

But yes, please buy a lathe and then you can also go thru the learning process and realize that altho it isn't exactly Rocket Science, there is more craftsmanship to it than meets the eye.

Then when you FK Shit up, you can have no one to blame but yourself. I'd like to see you tune your lathe up so it runs Dead Nuts and then put a ferrule on and not turn it into something that looks like a Bugle.

Sounds like your repairman will also be better off for it.

If it had have been a factory defect and you snapped the tenon off while playing, you probably would have left it up to the repairman to find the proper replacement ferrule for you and then he would have been the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Can't win for losing somtimes eh?

I'm not being hard on him at all. In fact, I said in the original post I wasn't particularly mad at anyone involved. Also, the title of the thread, right, wrong, or otherwise could be taken as an assumption I thought it was a bad tenon and blamed Players. I'm not sure who's to blame, but none of it changes the fact that the situation makes him less likely to be the first guy I call next time I need work done.

You go on and keep acting like a dick though, I realize it's kinda your thing.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Curious as to the thoughts of anyone who 'd like to chime in.

I had the tip on my HXT skinny shaft replaced this week by a local cue repair guy. While trimming the new tip, the tenon on the HXT shaft snapped. Without consulting me, the repair guy cut a new tenon and installed a new ferrule. For those who may be unaware, the low deflection technology in an HXT shaft is, in fact, the ferrule. It's a hollow, polymer filled design. So, the shaft is no longer low deflection.

I called Players today to find out if the shaft would be repaired or replaced under warranty. I was told it probably would have been if I'd have just sent the shaft and broken tenon/ferrule/tip in for examination. However, since the repair man took it upon himself to fix it, the shaft is no longer covered under warranty.

I'm not particularly mad at anyone involved. Things happen and I think the repair guy tried to do what he could to make the situation right at the time. However, he is apparently unfamiliar with the correct process for replacing a tip on an HXT ferrule.

Similarly, I can understand Players position. There is no way for them to determine what exactly happened. But, I do have the ferrule with the tenon inside and a partially trimmed tip installed. It seems fairly obvious as to what transpired here. And it seems to me like a problem that should be covered under warranty.

So, what do you think? Stop recommending the HXT shaft? Not because it's not a good shaft, but this could happen to any repair guy, unknowingly voiding a customers warranty. At very least any recommendation of these shaft now requires a footnote for when tip replacement time comes around. Or, do I "blame" the repair man? He did a very nice job with the new ferrule and tip by the way, so he seems competent enough. Perhaps he should have recognized he was in unfamiliar territory with this shaft and acted accordingly.

Thoughts?

Are you sure the tenon broke while he was TRIMMING the new tip ?
Or it broke when he was removing the tip with his tool bit while the shaft was spinning ?

Safest way to remove tip is to just lay it on a table, the chisel most of the tip.
That way, there is no pressure on the tenon.
Some use robogrip to grap the tip and yank it out of the ferrule. Unfortunately, sometimes that glue bond is so tough, it could break the ferrule or the hollowed tenon of low end-mass shaft .

IF he replaced the tenon, he would have had to glue an oversize plug down the shaft ( that way he doesn't shorten the shaft ). That would add end-mass .

This problem happens often on hollowed end shafts .Once that tenon is broke, you really can't replace it . You can't glue in a tenon and drill a hole through it. It'll be too weak.

 

[Busboy]

Scott, what pin do you have? I can get you a replacement at dealer cost if you want it...?

Pretty nice deal there Rain Man don't get much better and yea I don't think its players prob I think the guy who fixed it should pay for it or half atleast I know the guy who works on my cues always calls me with anything idk anyway hope u get it all fixed if I was u I'd go with rain man he's great azer his itrader speaks for its self :thumbup::thumbup:

 

[ScottK]

Are you sure the tenon broke while he was TRIMMING the new tip ?
Or it broke when he was removing the tip with his tool bit while the shaft was spinning ?

Safest way to remove tip is to just lay it on a table, the chisel most of the tip.
That way, there is no pressure on the tenon.
Some use robogrip to grap the tip and yank it out of the ferrule. Unfortunately, sometimes that glue bond is so tough, it could break the ferrule or the hollowed tenon of low end-mass shaft .

IF he replaced the tenon, he would have had to glue an oversize plug down the shaft ( that way he doesn't shorten the shaft ). That would add end-mass .

This problem happens often on hollowed end shafts .Once that tenon is broke, you really can't replace it . You can't glue in a tenon and drill a hole through it. It'll be too weak.

There was no tip on the ferrule when I gave him the shaft. All he had to do was face off the ferrule, apply and trim the tip. I have the broken ferrule/tenon with partly trimmed tip applied. It most definitely broke while he was trimming the tip.
Also, it's not a hollow shaft.

 

[ScottK]

Pretty nice deal there Rain Man don't get much better and yea I don't think its players prob I think the guy who fixed it should pay for it or half atleast I know the guy who works on my cues always calls me with anything idk anyway hope u get it all fixed if I was u I'd go with rain man he's great azer his itrader speaks for its self :thumbup::thumbup:

Indeed. Good guy Rain Man is.

 

[ShootingArts]

sure would like to see some good pictures . . .

Scott,

Some good detailed pictures of the ferrule, tenon, and tip that broke off would be nice. We all get to four on the other side of the equal sign but I'm not too sure about the 2+2 part. Seems like there are some unanswered questions because I don't think many cue men would put nearly the loads on a shaft trimming a tip as the loads the shaft sees almost every time a ball is hit. Faulty equipment or a bad set up isn't impossible, neither is prior damage or a manufacturer's defect. Not familiar with that brand of low deflection shaft but some give very little margin for error in the manufacturing process. Seems like I remember .009" sidewall thickness on a hollow tenon from somewhere.

I'm not suggesting that you are deliberately hiding anything, just that we are a little light on information and the information we have seems unlikely to have caused the problem. About the only way I can think of for trimming a tip to break a sound tenon would be for a lot of shaft to be sticking out from the chuck or steady rest and the set-up to allow the tip to climb the tooling and put the shaft in a severe bind. Then a catch is still required to start the process.

I like seeing what failed if possible, expands everyone's knowledge particularly that of the cue repairmen and builders. Please post some pictures if possible.

Thank You,
Hu

 

[JoeyInCali]

There was no tip on the ferrule when I gave him the shaft. All he had to do was face off the ferrule, apply and trim the tip. I have the broken ferrule/tenon with partly trimmed tip applied. It most definitely broke while he was trimming the tip.
Also, it's not a hollow shaft.

If it's not a hollow shaft, it's not a low def shaft imo.

 

[ScottK]

If it's not a hollow shaft, it's not a low def shaft imo.

You're correct.
The end mass reduction was in the ferrule. Since that ferrule is no longer on the shaft, it is now just a standard maple shaft.

 

[JoeyInCali]

You're correct.
The end mass reduction was in the ferrule. Since that ferrule is no longer on the shaft, it is now just a standard maple shaft.

Do you really want a ferrule with a gap inside ?
It'd be easy to remove that ferrule .
Shorten the tenon and install a capped ferrule with a gap below the cap and the top of the tenon, Meucci style.
You can use Isoplast ferrule. The closest thing to the original Predator ferrule.

 

[ScottK]

Scott,

Some good detailed pictures of the ferrule, tenon, and tip that broke off would be nice. We all get to four on the other side of the equal sign but I'm not too sure about the 2+2 part. Seems like there are some unanswered questions because I don't think many cue men would put nearly the loads on a shaft trimming a tip as the loads the shaft sees almost every time a ball is hit. Faulty equipment or a bad set up isn't impossible, neither is prior damage or a manufacturer's defect. Not familiar with that brand of low deflection shaft but some give very little margin for error in the manufacturing process. Seems like I remember .009" sidewall thickness on a hollow tenon from somewhere.

I'm not suggesting that you are deliberately hiding anything, just that we are a little light on information and the information we have seems unlikely to have caused the problem. About the only way I can think of for trimming a tip to break a sound tenon would be for a lot of shaft to be sticking out from the chuck or steady rest and the set-up to allow the tip to climb the tooling and put the shaft in a severe bind. Then a catch is still required to start the process.

I like seeing what failed if possible, expands everyone's knowledge particularly that of the cue repairmen and builders. Please post some pictures if possible.

Thank You,
Hu

I'm uploading some pictures as we speak. I need to resize them, but they'll be up shortly.

And thank you, sir.

 

[ScottK]

Do you really want a ferrule with a gap inside ?
It'd be easy to remove that ferrule .

That's part of my question. Is this a poor design? Bad workmanship? Simple bad luck?

Even with the best QC and the most cautious repairman things will happen.

Once again, I'm not "mad" at anyone in particular. I was really just wondering if it's the HXT shaft or the repair guy I should not recommend. The answer certainly could be it's neither, just bad luck.

 

[JoeyInCali]

That's part of my question. Is this a poor design? Bad workmanship? Simple bad luck?

Even with the best QC and the most cautious repairman things will happen.

Once again, I'm not "mad" at anyone in particular. I was really just wondering if it's the HXT shaft or the repair guy I should not recommend. The answer certainly could be it's neither, just bad luck.

If the tenon broke while he was trimming the tip ( I'm assuming his tool bit isn't dull ), that tenon was crap.
An experienced tip fitter wouldn't put a ton of pressure on the tip while trimming it. HE WOULD NOT want to pop the tip while he's trimming it. Heck, I use a 4-flute carbide end mill to trip the tip to near the final size.

 

[ScottK]

Pictures as requested. If the quality is insufficient I can take more tonight with better lighting.

Thanks.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I can see why it snapped while he was trimming the tip with a razor blade.
That tenon is thin and the rest of the ferrule is just filled with some foam/lightweight material.
The tenon is very long too.

 

[ScottK]

I can see why it snapped while he was trimming the tip with a razor blade.
That tenon is thin and the rest of the ferrule is just filled with some foam/lightweight material.
The tenon is very long too.

The ferrule is 1/2". The tenon is less than that depending on the depth of that "lip" the ferrule is mounted around. If we want to count that as part of the tenon, then it's 1/2".
The tenon is less than 1/4" in diameter, though.