Do handicapped leagues & tourneys hinder personal advanment?

If pool were much larger and more popular, there would be room for D, C, B, and A leagues, with more money and glory to be won at the higher levels than the lower. Then players have an incentive to make the next level.

In the meantime (probably forever), handicaps (1) bring people into the game and into leagues, growing the pie for everyone and (2) force me to focus when I'm playing someone in a league match who has almost no chance to beat me even.

All in all, if you blame handicaps for your lack of advancements, you're probably just prone to making excuses. If it weren't the handicaps, it would be something else.

Cory
 
I'll go for that Cory, it is up to the individual. I still worry about the general mindset though; people telling teammates to keep handicap down, tournament directors not doing a proper job of letting people who pay their dues reap the rewards and the lack of urgency in the masses to improve, that use to spread like a disease the way handicap mentality now does.
As i stated earlier, there's a place for them for sure, I just don't think we're using it properly just yet.
 
And while we're here I would like to give a shout out to all those players playing in the US Amateur that had preliminaries all over the country this week. Most come from handicapped leagues and they're all stepping up to not only play even but they're investing time and money to compete in a national event that comes with little to no monetary reward . Kudos to ALL OF THEM
 
I took the op thread question not as "does playing against handicapped players keep you from advancing?", but "does handicap keep the handicappED player from advancing?". And that is a very big YES it does. There is an APA tournament here next weekend, where just APA skill level 5s will be playing each other in finals for trip to nationals.

There is absolutely no incentive to get better than a 5 if you are looking to make nationals as a 5. So there are players who sit at their level and never push to make the changes necessary to advance, they say they are a five for life.

I look at the professional open tournaments (no handicap) as the biggest push to get better. either you advance your skill set or you are eliminated early. And the pool knowledge of a no handicap tournament is far greater than that of a handicapped tournament, therefore I will sit and watch one for great pool, and ignore the other.

Most are so set on winning, they don't care how they get there, even if it means accepting a handicap. If I beat the nine ball ghost, but get lucky on two balls with a cue ball position roll here or there, I'm not satisfied at all. My goal is to get through racks with every shot executed well. And it's the same in tournaments for me. If I advance, it's because I earned it 100%. No handicap. If that means I have to be dead money for a while in the open tournaments, so be it. Just have to get better and advance.

Great thread, and great discussion. When addressing the state of pool in America, this is what I always think of first-handicapping and the complacency it brings to the table.
 
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And while we're here I would like to give a shout out to all those players playing in the US Amateur that had preliminaries all over the country this week. Most come from handicapped leagues and they're all stepping up to not only play even but they're investing time and money to compete in a national event that comes with little to no monetary reward . Kudos to ALL OF THEM

Yes, sir, Mr Tucker. I agree with everything you are doing and that all those players you mentioned should be commended. To play even is where the learning and drive to advance starts.

I've read and watched your material over the years and I thank you for your dedication to teaching this great game. You serve the sport well. Kudos to you and hope to see you back at the turning stone some time.
 
Most if my pool friends are apa players. The ones that have time want to improve. The ones that don't have the time or don't put in the time view it as nothing more than a competitive hobby that they enjoy here or there. My buddy that's bartending right now is a 6 and even said tonight that he would like my help to get to a 7. The misconception lies somewhere between players that just want to have fun and the ones that want to improve for personal reasons. In there falls the player that says they want to stay the same for a small goal of taking advantage of the system.
 
Most if my pool friends are apa players. The ones that have time want to improve. The ones that don't have the time or don't put in the time view it as nothing more than a competitive hobby that they enjoy here or there. My buddy that's bartending right now is a 6 and even said tonight that he would like my help to get to a 7. The misconception lies somewhere between players that just want to have fun and the ones that want to improve for personal reasons. In there falls the player that says they want to stay the same for a small goal of taking advantage of the system.

Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner.

As I said earlier, those who want to improve, WILL improve. They will work at it, and get advice, maybe lessons, and become better at the game.

Those who aren't interested or motivated to improve, likely won't.

It has nothing to do with the handicap system of any league or tournament. It does have to do with the makeup of said individual.

If keeping their handicap down is more important than wanting to improve, you have your answer right there. The system doesn't create the situation, the individual reacts to the situation as fits his/her goals from the activity. They can improve if they want to. They can sit on their skill level if they want to, too. The "system" doesn't make the choice, the individual does.

I want to improve. My life schedules don't allow me the time to truly devote enough time to truly improve in a meaningful way, at this time. But I can tell you that the APA skill level system sure as hell isn't stopping me from wanting to improve. I WANT to go up in skill level, when I am playing consistent enough to DESERVE that ranking. It is a big deal to me. And to many that I play with, too.
 
I'm of the opinion that handicap tourney's DO hinder personal growth, but maybe not for the reason you may be thinking. I'll explain.

I play in most of the local tourney's we have here. Thursday 8-ball on bar boxes. Friday 9 ball on 9 footers. Sometimes Sunday 9-ball on bar boxes. I spot everyone there from 1 to 8 games, and I win more than I probably should. The point to the handicap is that it is supposed to help the lower players and hinder the higher players, but it ends up having the exact opposite effect most of the time. MOST of the time, when I play 9 ball on Fridays, and I have to go to 9 and have to play a 2, they are terrified to play me before we even hit the first ball. I have the immediate advantage, so I I lay off out of simple complacency. I know I shouldn't, but I know in my mind that the 2 is not a threat and I don't play my high game. The ONLY time I get interested is when I'm playing someone who is a 6 or higher, and in that regard I don't help my own game in the slightest. So in the grand scheme, I do not improve my own game. with these matches. It's simple...if I don't feel threatened, then I don't shoot my best game, and I know that's wrong. I should play my best every time, but it's impossible without someone shooting back at me.

Now given that, I DO play in as many open tournaments as I can get to, but that's hard to do given my day job. but I get better playing in the ones that I know I can get my butt handed to me in.

So my view in this is YES, handicapped tournaments DO hinder personal growth.

Just my experiences..
 
I'm of the opinion that handicap tourney's DO hinder personal growth, but maybe not for the reason you may be thinking. I'll explain.

I play in most of the local tourney's we have here. Thursday 8-ball on bar boxes. Friday 9 ball on 9 footers. Sometimes Sunday 9-ball on bar boxes. I spot everyone there from 1 to 8 games, and I win more than I probably should. The point to the handicap is that it is supposed to help the lower players and hinder the higher players, but it ends up having the exact opposite effect most of the time. MOST of the time, when I play 9 ball on Fridays, and I have to go to 9 and have to play a 2, they are terrified to play me before we even hit the first ball. I have the immediate advantage, so I I lay off out of simple complacency. I know I shouldn't, but I know in my mind that the 2 is not a threat and I don't play my high game. The ONLY time I get interested is when I'm playing someone who is a 6 or higher, and in that regard I don't help my own game in the slightest. So in the grand scheme, I do not improve my own game. with these matches. It's simple...if I don't feel threatened, then I don't shoot my best game, and I know that's wrong. I should play my best every time, but it's impossible without someone shooting back at me.

Now given that, I DO play in as many open tournaments as I can get to, but that's hard to do given my day job. but I get better playing in the ones that I know I can get my butt handed to me in.

So my view in this is YES, handicapped tournaments DO hinder personal growth.

Just my experiences..

I'm having a hard time understanding this. Would you be doing better and improving if that 2 had to also go to 9? Sounds like you just get lazy and blame it on the tournament, as if leaving out handicaps is going to make you try harder when you'd already be a heavy favorite.
 
I think he is saying playing the 2 is limiting his growth as he doesn't see it as a threat so doesn't try his hardest. I don't think he is blaming it on the 2 but instead blaming it on himself that he can't seem to feel the 2 as a threat so coasts through it without trying as hard as he would against a better player.

I agree with it all being up to the individual. I strive to be better and only use my handicap as a measuring point and constantly trying to get better. Others either don't want to put in the time to get better, have formed such bad habits and without help won't get better or are out to have fun and pool becomes a side thing to spending a night with friends.
 
Most if my pool friends are apa players. The ones that have time want to improve. The ones that don't have the time or don't put in the time view it as nothing more than a competitive hobby that they enjoy here or there. My buddy that's bartending right now is a 6 and even said tonight that he would like my help to get to a 7. The misconception lies somewhere between players that just want to have fun and the ones that want to improve for personal reasons. In there falls the player that says they want to stay the same for a small goal of taking advantage of the system.

Maybe that's true for YOUR league in your AREA.. but not here. In 2 years I've seen a lot of people who want to get better but also don't want to screw there team or there chances to goto vegas. You win tri cups in the 2nd or 3rd session and your team is close you can't afford people to go up unless you want to throw that chance away. again the more I think about it the more I believe the 23 rule is the real problem..not the handicap. If it was just a handicap people would want to get better..you throw in the 23 rule and now you can't afford to unless you want to blow your team eventually. Our lo's always crowed about how perfect the apa handicap system is..it makes every match a coin flip..anyone can win. Then why do you need the 23 rule? If every match is even why does it matter how many good or bad players our on a team. It's all the same!!! Thats when the back pedaling on how great there handicap system is lol I'm starting Tap last night..I'm looking forward to seeing how they compare.
 
Maybe that's true for YOUR league in your AREA.. but not here. In 2 years I've seen a lot of people who want to get better but also don't want to screw there team or there chances to goto vegas. You win tri cups in the 2nd or 3rd session and your team is close you can't afford people to go up unless you want to throw that chance away. again the more I think about it the more I believe the 23 rule is the real problem..not the handicap. If it was just a handicap people would want to get better..you throw in the 23 rule and now you can't afford to unless you want to blow your team eventually. Our lo's always crowed about how perfect the apa handicap system is..it makes every match a coin flip..anyone can win. Then why do you need the 23 rule? If every match is even why does it matter how many good or bad players our on a team. It's all the same!!! Thats when the back pedaling on how great there handicap system is lol I'm starting Tap last night..I'm looking forward to seeing how they compare.

You've said it right there. They obviously care more about the handicap and keeping their team together than they do about improving.

They made the choice. They could get better, but they choose not to.
 
If I ever went back to being a house pro two weekly events I would run would be;
A handicapped chip tournament and a race to 1 quadruple elimination ala Paul Schofield tournament but keep the entry at $10. The chip is handicapped but I think both events are fun for the players but promote improvement.
For weekend events again I like Paul's quad elim no handicaps and would keep entry down with short races all the way through.

If I look back over the years one theory I might have is that the better player (including myself) probably did more than they know to induce handicap tournaments by way of raising entry fees to weekly tournaments so they could win more $$$. At first it was like don't worry we're going to give the lower tier a game on the wire and when that really wasn't enough and Pandora's box had been opened things got a lil out of hand.
Back off the money and get more playing for the passion and I think we'll attract more players wanting to improve and taking pride in their game?
 
it is a simple thing

Most competitors only get good enough to beat the competition if they rise to that level.

World records fall over and over when two or three rivals are constantly pressuring each other to get better. The same is true at all levels of play, the competition has a large influence on how good an individual gets. Many a local champion thought they had reached their very best until someone came along and started kicking their butt. Then the old champion found a little more and won. The challenger found a little more too. Soon they were in an upward spiral with both performing well beyond what they would have believed possible not long before.

Open competition either brings out a person's very best or makes them give up. Handicaps and point systems might get more people into the competition but they also remove a lot of the incentive to be the best a competitor can be.



Some people don't like to compete. You could guaranty them a high finish every event and they still wouldn't compete. Most people putting on events don't get this, some people hate putting any pressure at all on themselves. Then there are the casual competitors. They enjoy competing for a few dollars or a piece of chrome but they go home and forget about the competition until next week. Finally there are the competitors that truly love to compete. If they dominate local competition they go out to seek better competition wherever that might take them.

There needs to be a place for all three types, so handicaps have their place. I'm none too sure point limits do. Point limits, the APA low point limit in particular, seems geared to get people into the league but then keep breaking up teams to expand the league. Good for the league if people don't get disgusted and quit, I don't see where the very low limit APA has does much for competition.

Hu
 
Most competitors only get good enough to beat the competition if they rise to that level. <br />
<br />
World records fall over and over when two or three rivals are constantly pressuring each other to get better. The same is true at all levels of play, the competition has a large influence on how good an individual gets. Many a local champion thought they had reached their very best until someone came along and started kicking their butt. Then the old champion found a little more and won. The challenger found a little more too. Soon they were in an upward spiral with both performing well beyond what they would have believed possible not long before.<br />
<br />
Open competition either brings out a person's very best or makes them give up. Handicaps and point systems might get more people into the competition but they also remove a lot of the incentive to be the best a competitor can be. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Some people don't like to compete. You could guaranty them a high finish every event and they still wouldn't compete. Most people putting on events don't get this, some people hate putting any pressure at all on themselves. Then there are the casual competitors. They enjoy competing for a few dollars or a piece of chrome but they go home and forget about the competition until next week. Finally there are the competitors that truly love to compete. If they dominate local competition they go out to seek better competition wherever that might take them. <br />
<br />
There needs to be a place for all three types, so handicaps have their place. I'm none too sure point limits do. Point limits, the APA low point limit in particular, seems geared to get people into the league but then keep breaking up teams to expand the league. Good for the league if people don't get disgusted and quit, I don't see where the very low limit APA has does much for competition. <br />
<br />
Hu<br/>
Well said
 
(snip)

If the majority of the time you are playing against people with handicaps lower than yourself, might be a good time to find a tougher league.

Yet, that better player, to win, HAS TO overcome the disadvantage he's given up front by by the handicap, so that just might make him a better player in other such tough situations in other venues.

Jeff Livingston
 
I'm having a hard time understanding this. Would you be doing better and improving if that 2 had to also go to 9? Sounds like you just get lazy and blame it on the tournament, as if leaving out handicaps is going to make you try harder when you'd already be a heavy favorite.


Definitely not blaming the 2 for being a 2. Just saying they aren't even a remote threat, so I can't get mentally geared up for a hard game. I KNOW it's going to be a cake walk, and that's the problem. I need people to shoot back at me to make me concentrate. Besides, it's not a lot of fun hammering a 2 relentlessly, which is what would happen if I played a hard match with them. 2's don't enter open tourney's. typically unless you're a 9 or better, people don't bother donating in an open tournament.

Shorter version.. clubbing baby seals doesn't make you a better hunter. You just eat a lot more and get fat.
 
A point not mentioned is how do you give a player a handicap in many memories dalitise of pool,when the player could be playing any one of many games?

9 ball?

10 ball?

8 ball?

One pocket?

Rotation?

Straight Pool?

On are bar box the game is different than on a 4-1/2 x 9, or Bar Box?.
 
You are at a pool table playing pool. I'm not sure how that can hurt a player's development.
 
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