So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

[JB Cases]

Maybe you just haven't learned the high level pool that's going on. But when I watch other videos with Buddy Hall, he has his cue ball hitting perfect positions. Watching this Challenge of Champions shows Buddy Hall missing position after position, missing shots so easy most 'C' ranked players can see something odd going on. I know when I watched him miss that 8-9 combo, there was no way someone like Buddy Hall misses without throwing the match.

Only an idiot would try and convince themselves and others that there wasn't a dump. You have confirmation from someone involved that there was a fix going on. How do you deny evidence? You generally can argue well Mr. Barton, but in this case. You've gone off the deep end. You keep trying to deny the words of people involved. The only way you'll be happy is if you get a signed affidavit from everyone involved. But even then you'll argue that the signatures are forged.

I see the dump plain and clear. You could put me in that exact same situation, a million on the line. Not the $20k they were pressured with. I will make that shot all day long. I've faced way harder shots to win matches than that combo and have made them. You need to drop your attitude towards others and just stop trying to be correct all the time man. It's not healthy.

so then why bother running the racks he did run?

why does the best nine ball player not dump it off and lose 9-5? why let it come all the way down to that shot leaving the fate of the game on deliberately missing an 'easy' combo?

and one where the result is unpredictable as the nine came back and hooked lebron iirc.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I don't think the combo was particularly easy. but let's say it was....why would the number one nine ball player in the world set himself up with an easy combo instead of just giving himself more angle and making it tougher?

on one hand you call him the best player and then don't give him credit for not being good enough to have insured that the set doesn't come down to this shot.

Strange things happen when guys are dumping. Since you've never seen a "dump" match you wouldn't know.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

so then why bother running the racks he did run?

why does the best nine ball player not dump it off and lose 9-5? why let it come all the way down to that shot leaving the fate of the game on deliberately missing an 'easy' combo?

and one where the result is unpredictable as the nine came back and hooked lebron iirc.

The 9 did come back and hook Lebron.

ONB

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Wait a sec. You mean to tell me, you guys are STILL arguing if it was a dump or not?
Are you guys out of your mind?
It's already been confirmed as a dump by key players involved.
What is there to argue about?

The only people who really should be allowed to ask or think it wasn't a dump or not, are the current newest generation of players.

Anyone who's been around long enough to hear any of the big mouthed participants swell up with pride, and brag about how they ripped off the book, will never ever question if it was a dump or not.

The people who have no clue, don't actually realize that they don't have a clue cause they were never privy to that info, so why take anything they have to say seriously?

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

so then why bother running the racks he did run?

why does the best nine ball player not dump it off and lose 9-5? why let it come all the way down to that shot leaving the fate of the game on deliberately missing an 'easy' combo?

and one where the result is unpredictable as the nine came back and hooked lebron iirc.

If Buddy Hall were to of lost 9-5, he would of instantly been accused of dumping. Remember that because you aren't looking for the dump, you won't see it as a dump. It's not that you are incapable of seeing it, but you're refusing to see it. If I were to record thousands of people missing that 8-9 combo, how much would you bet that less than 5% of those thousands would miss it so the 8 winds up on the rail? Wanna make it so only AA players take the shot? I'd wager less than 1% ever miss it so the 8 ball ends up on the rail.

You don't want the match to be a dump, but as the evidence shows. There was a dump. As I said, anything less than a signed affidavit by the players isn't good enough evidence. Even then you'll get another excuse together for why the signed affidavit is forged and not good enough evidence for you. Only evidence you present will be held as factual evidence, everything else to you is insufficient. I know you want to be correct inn everything you do, but put on the big boy pants John. It's time to accept the fact that the people involved have admitted in conversations of a dump. The ref even says he got wind of the dump after the dump happened. You can't wish things to be true no matter how much you idolize that person.

 

[JB Cases]

If Buddy Hall were to of lost 9-5, he would of instantly been accused of dumping. Remember that because you aren't looking for the dump, you won't see it as a dump. It's not that you are incapable of seeing it, but you're refusing to see it. If I were to record thousands of people missing that 8-9 combo, how much would you bet that less than 5% of those thousands would miss it so the 8 winds up on the rail? Wanna make it so only AA players take the shot? I'd wager less than 1% ever miss it so the 8 ball ends up on the rail.

You don't want the match to be a dump, but as the evidence shows. There was a dump. As I said, anything less than a signed affidavit by the players isn't good enough evidence. Even then you'll get another excuse together for why the signed affidavit is forged and not good enough evidence for you. Only evidence you present will be held as factual evidence, everything else to you is insufficient. I know you want to be correct inn everything you do, but put on the big boy pants John. It's time to accept the fact that the people involved have admitted in conversations of a dump. The ref even says he got wind of the dump after the dump happened. You can't wish things to be true no matter how much you idolize that person.

who would have instantly accused him?
Jay Helfert says he nor only heard rumors but was convinced of of it watching the matches?

why not make the instant accusation then?

I hear your arguments and all I see is more confirmation bias. I leave the possibility open that there was a collusion based on evidence which might come to light such as a confession.

You leave no possibility that there might not have been one based only on hearsay and the video.

You speak in terms of what would have been if......and I merely analyzed the video as presented based on what the players did.

If this were a court these accusations would be tossed out on a lack of evidence.

it isn't a court. ..just public opinion...you have yours and I have mine. attacking me personally isn't going to change my opinion. speculating on what I will or won't accept as further evidence is silly. you're attacking me as if I am able to change anything.

I would like you to keep in mind though that there have been many times on this forum where people have been accused of terrible violations with people citing "evidence" and then a few days later they were exonerated after the story was debunked.

it is easy to acccuse. far harder to take the defensive position and look deeper at an accusation.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Wait a sec. You mean to tell me, you guys are STILL arguing if it was a dump or not?
Are you guys out of your mind?
It's already been confirmed as a dump by key players involved.
What is there to argue about?

The only people who really should be allowed to ask or think it wasn't a dump or not, are the current newest generation of players.

Anyone who's been around long enough to hear any of the big mouthed participants swell up with pride, and brag about how they ripped off the book, will never ever question if it was a dump or not.

The people who have no clue, don't actually realize that they don't have a clue cause they were never privy to that info, so why take anything they have to say seriously?

I believe there is only one person arguing it wasn't a dump.
That after resting his case and promising not to worry about what happened decades ago.
Expect thousands of words to follow.

 

[JB Cases]

I believe there is only one person arguing it wasn't a dump.
That after resting his case and promising not to worry about what happened decades ago.
Expect thousands of words to follow.

other posters also took the position that the video did not conclusively show a dump.

I reopened the case, so what? why should you care?

it is just conversation. ..scroll on by if you don't have anything to contribute.

 

[JB Cases]

and for the record....saying you heard someone say something is called hearsay.

funny that no one in the billiard media mentioned this in 20 years if it was such an open secret. I mean we have seen every other facet of players lives exposed and talked about but this was off limits?

 

[spartan]

I believe there is only one person arguing it wasn't a dump.
That after resting his case and promising not to worry about what happened decades ago.
Expect thousands of words to follow.

+1
Cracked me up. Love the double entendre
When he says rest his case he means his "cue case" LOL
So he will say he only rested his cue case and can carry on with thousands of words

 

[spartan]

and for the record....saying you heard someone say something is called hearsay.

Hearsay need not be heard only (though that may be how the word "hearsay" was derived )

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay

1.
unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge:
I pay no attention to hearsay.
2.
an item of idle or unverified information or gossip; rumor:
a malicious hearsay.

 

[JB Cases]

Hearsay need not be heard only (though that may be how the word "hearsay" was derived )

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay

1.
unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge:
I pay no attention to hearsay.
2.
an item of idle or unverified information or gossip; rumor:
a malicious hearsay.

which is what we are dealing with here. unverified information acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge.

again....I am 100% confident that I can find a match where the favorite loses after missing shots and simply by mentioning that there might be a dump the majority of 100 viewers will find examples of a dump on that video.

conversely if I show the same video to 100 people and ask them to tell me why the favorite lost but do not anchor the scene by introducing the possibility of a dump then for sure very few people would raise that possibility on their own.
so at the end all we have is rumors from third parties and flat out denials from one of the players and the promoter. that promoter went on to produce about 20 to 30 more events or more for ESPN in casinos.

so the whole premise here that an unproven dump killed pool because casinos don't book matches is just not proven. pool went on to get decently sized through the 90s. booming on the success of the color of money.

so many things just don't add up.

in my opinion if the line was so awesome then there should have been dozens of bets on lebron just because of the outside chance. even a 9-1 bet against him was still a great bet.

sorry but the news that Mike was at 20-1 would have spread through the Vegas billiard community like a brush fire in Santa Ana winds with dozens of rail birds making their way to the Mirage to place bets.

I can certainly see the players having bets in. I see that as a huge conflict of interest for obvious reasons. I see the possibility of a dump.

but what I don't see by watching the video is the smoking gun...quite the opposite. ...I find all these guys to be the worst dumpers on earth based on these videos.

 

[JB Cases]

+1
Cracked me up. Love the double entendre
When he says rest his case he means his "cue case" LOL
So he will say he only rested his cue case and can carry on with thousands of words

the case was rested in another thread but the prosecution continued so I did as well.

and you give too much credit as no double entendre was meant.

 

[Ron Swanson]

which is what we are dealing with here. unverified information acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge.

again....I am 100% confident that I can find a match where the favorite loses after missing shots and simply by mentioning that there might be a dump the majority of 100 viewers will find examples of a dump on that video.

conversely if I show the same video to 100 people and ask them to tell me why the favorite lost but do not anchor the scene by introducing the possibility of a dump then for sure very few people would raise that possibility on their own.
so at the end all we have is rumors from third parties and flat out denials from one of the players and the promoter. that promoter went on to produce about 20 to 30 more events or more for ESPN in casinos.

so the whole premise here that an unproven dump killed pool because casinos don't book matches is just not proven. pool went on to get decently sized through the 90s. booming on the success of the color of money.

so many things just don't add up.

in my opinion if the line was so awesome then there should have been dozens of bets on lebron just because of the outside chance. even a 9-1 bet against him was still a great bet.

sorry but the news that Mike was at 20-1 would have spread through the Vegas billiard community like a brush fire in Santa Ana winds with dozens of rail birds making their way to the Mirage to place bets.

I can certainly see the players having bets in. I see that as a huge conflict of interest for obvious reasons. I see the possibility of a dump.

but what I don't see by watching the video is the smoking gun...quite the opposite. ...I find all these guys to be the worst dumpers on earth based on these videos.

Or, just popping into the real world for a second, we have 100 people being informed of what's really happening by those with knowledge and expertise.

Please avoid all forms of jury service.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I believe there is only one person arguing it wasn't a dump.
That after resting his case and promising not to worry about what happened decades ago.
Expect thousands of words to follow.

There is, as they say, ALWAYS one.

 

[JB Cases]

There is, as they say, ALWAYS one.

Actually there are many in this thread who feel the same way I do.

 

[JB Cases]

Or, just popping into the real world for a second, we have 100 people being informed of what's really happening by those with knowledge and expertise.

Please avoid all forms of jury service.

Once again, it's called ANCHORING. If an "expert" tells you something then you are much more likely to believe it without question.

It doesn't even take an expert.

Just the mention that there might have been a dump skews the viewer's perception to suddenly start looking for evidence of a dump.

 

[JB Cases]

Anyway, I rest my case AGAIN. If people read through this thread I don't ever say that I am positive no dump happened.

As a fan I HOPE it didn't. As a critical thinker I FEEL it didn't based on my analysis of all that's been said and the footage we have seen.

If someday Mike Lebron or any of the other players admit to it then I will be disappointed.

And lastly, even if a dump happened it had zero effect on pool in my opinion and that is an undeniable fact. Sports betting would not have made a difference in pool's popularity. Pool was on TV a LOT in the 90s and casinos across the country were adding money to events they hosted. ESPN broadcast a ton of hours.

Two things killed pro pool on tv in my opinion, Don Mackey's heavy handed tactics and the federal ban on tobacco advertising. RJ Reynolds already had one foot out the door due to the PBT's demands and because Earl Strickland walked out of the finals against Corey Deuel in one of the events.

With no men's pro pool on television pool began to wane as it was only carried by women's events. Imagine what would happen to basketball if suddenly the NBA wasn't on TV and only WNBA was broadcast. General interest would go down.

Anyway, that's my points....discuss. I am out.

 

[Johnnyt]

Betting on pool in the states would have been huge for pool. Take the legal betting away from snooker and see it come down to pools level quickly. Johnnyt

 

[Old Nine Baller]

who would have instantly accused him?
Jay Helfert says he nor only heard rumors but was convinced of of it watching the matches?

why not make the instant accusation then?Would you want to be in the pool scene after making an accusation that you couldn't prove? It's easier years later.

I hear your arguments and all I see is more confirmation bias. I leave the possibility open that there was a collusion based on evidence which might come to light such as a confession.

You leave no possibility that there might not have been one based only on hearsay and the video.

You speak in terms of what would have been if......and I merely analyzed the video as presented based on what the players did.

If this were a court these accusations would be tossed out on a lack of evidence.

it isn't a court. ..just public opinion...you have yours and I have mine. attacking me personally isn't going to change my opinion. speculating on what I will or won't accept as further evidence is silly. you're attacking me as if I am able to change anything.

I would like you to keep in mind though that there have been many times on this forum where people have been accused of terrible violations with people citing "evidence" and then a few days later they were exonerated after the story was debunked.

it is easy to acccuse. far harder to take the defensive position and look deeper at an accusation.

John,

Have you ever read this thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=261494 including the posts about Shane trying to steal a ball and a game at the DCC 2012 Bankpool finals against Morra. Did you ever see the DVD?

There it is on video and many here still will not believe that Shane did what he clearly did. Even commentators M. Wilson & D. DiLiberto acknowledged it on camera but not many here will accept it.

Jay Helfert barely made a peep about it by the way, he also preferred to sweep it under the rug:

Let's just say Shane made a mistake and lesson learned. And let it go at that. I too like Shane a lot and think he is a great representative for American pool, but even he can make a mistake. Hopefully he learns from this experience that he will always be in the spotlight and people watch everything he does closely (on or off the table!), just like any other public figure. If it had happened to almost any other player on an outside table we'd probably never hear about it.

You see John, even when a despicable act is caught on camera and the guilty person pays for his crime many people here still deny it.

Regarding the COC; Only a confession by all 7 co-conspirators would ever convince you anyway. Have you ever watched the DVD of the 7 matches? You were wrong about Lebron making that jump-shot and running the rack out, what else are you wrong about?


ONB