Sounds the same to me. I don't see any difference, other than one is a bit better defined...but they both mean the same thing...as Randy clearly explained.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Warm-up Strokes Vs. Measuring Strokes
- Thread starter BasementDweller
- Start date
Really?
In the first he says no connection. In the second he limits his statement to the speed of the warm up strokes vs a break stroke.
Warm up and final strokes are connected in that players, during warm ups, try to define and isolate the contact point on the CB they want to strike. Players also use their warm ups to establish a tempo that will generate a specific stroke speed. Some players use their warm up strokes to refine their grip position, finger tension, and elevation of their grip hand in preparation for their final stroke. And while the connection between the warm up strokes and a final break speed for a rotation or 8ball game maybe be significantly different, that is not the case at 1pocket.
Lou Figueroa
I think it's important to point out that what the pros do is most likely at a higher level of execution than what the average player or even accomplished amateur can do. A pro can concentrate on visualization because of all the road work and experience they have on any and every shot. They make their calculations about stroke, position, contact point on the CB, spin, and speed almost instantaneously.
The majority of pool players out there need to chew on things a bit
Lou Figueroa
Well, I'm not going to argue with you, as that seems to be your purpose. Your personal disdain for conventional instruction is well documented here (and that's your privilege). 
Randy used just one example, out of many that can be cited. What we teach works well for the majority of players that decide to implement the process. Neither of us expects EVERYONE to agree with us, and the ones that don't can figure out a different way.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Randy used just one example, out of many that can be cited. What we teach works well for the majority of players that decide to implement the process. Neither of us expects EVERYONE to agree with us, and the ones that don't can figure out a different way. Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Well, I'm not going to argue with you, as that seems to be your purpose. Your personal disdain for conventional instruction is well documented here (and that's your privilege).
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Well, fiddle-de-dee.
And your disdain for anyone who can think on their own is well documented as well. Frankly I think people should think twice about signing up with any camp that feels that to disagree is to disrespect. Or an instructor who cops out rather than discuss and debate the issue at hand.
In any case, having played and studied the game for close to 50 years I think my opinions are well informed enough. Maybe you guys have just become too accustomed to spoon-feeding "players" who barely know which end of the cue stick to use
Lou Figueroa
Thinking on your own doesn't necessarily correlate to thinking correctly or intelligently. In this case, I don't necessarily disagree with most of what Lou or Scott or Randy have said. Seems like you guys are arguing over a very silly point but that seems par for the course here.
Par is good.
I think we were doing fine until Scott decided to be Randy's spokesmodel, got his panties in a bunch over a misperceived dis', and then played the "personal disdain" card.
Lou Figueroa
headed for
the 19th hole
Who was arguing?
I thought this was a good thread.
Fifty years in pool is huge, but still a kid in my eyes.
"Arguing with a fool only proves that there are two!"
randyg
er, Scott said, "Well, I'm not going to argue with you, as that seems to be your purpose. Your personal disdain for conventional instruction is well documented here (and that's your privilege)."
So he dan't want to argue, thinks I disrespected you because i disagreed with you further back up the thread, and now is casting aspersions in my general direction rather than continuing with what I also thought was an interesting discussion.
Lou Figueroa
will let the
"kid" comment
slide, for now
Agree with you 99%
Royce,
I agree with you almost totally here. Actually, you described Quiet Eye better than I did. And visually is a large part of that.
However, I believe that they do play by feel. Sure, they understand (probably better than us) the principles of pool, but I think that they also use a great deal of feel. Example being, where I may try to figure a diamond system for a three rail kick, they appear to instinctively know where to aim.
Also, rather than being bogged down about their grip, stance, follow thru (process-oriented stuff), they are to be more result-oriented. They mentally overcome challenges (often even of flawed mechanics). It's my understanding that when struggling pro athletes seek coaching, they're led back to those mechanics. They've usually developed a flaw. It's the part that they pay less attention to.
Kind of like having the best shaft possible. I may need an OB Classic plus to play my best. But, their so talented that it may not make a difference.
Daren, doesn't have an OB plus yet, but will be ordering one soon. Hopefully, I can get that traditional shaft "feel" back and rest this 314-2!
Royce,
I agree with you almost totally here. Actually, you described Quiet Eye better than I did. And visually is a large part of that.
However, I believe that they do play by feel. Sure, they understand (probably better than us) the principles of pool, but I think that they also use a great deal of feel. Example being, where I may try to figure a diamond system for a three rail kick, they appear to instinctively know where to aim.
Also, rather than being bogged down about their grip, stance, follow thru (process-oriented stuff), they are to be more result-oriented. They mentally overcome challenges (often even of flawed mechanics). It's my understanding that when struggling pro athletes seek coaching, they're led back to those mechanics. They've usually developed a flaw. It's the part that they pay less attention to.
Kind of like having the best shaft possible. I may need an OB Classic plus to play my best. But, their so talented that it may not make a difference.
Daren, doesn't have an OB plus yet, but will be ordering one soon. Hopefully, I can get that traditional shaft "feel" back and rest this 314-2!
RBC
Deceased
Royce,
I agree with you almost totally here. Actually, you described Quiet Eye better than I did. And visually is a large part of that.
However, I believe that they do play by feel. Sure, they understand (probably better than us) the principles of pool, but I think that they also use a great deal of feel. Example being, where I may try to figure a diamond system for a three rail kick, they appear to instinctively know where to aim.
Also, rather than being bogged down about their grip, stance, follow thru (process-oriented stuff), they are to be more result-oriented. They mentally overcome challenges (often even of flawed mechanics). It's my understanding that when struggling pro athletes seek coaching, they're led back to those mechanics. They've usually developed a flaw. It's the part that they pay less attention to.
Kind of like having the best shaft possible. I may need an OB Classic plus to play my best. But, their so talented that it may not make a difference.
Daren, doesn't have an OB plus yet, but will be ordering one soon. Hopefully, I can get that traditional shaft "feel" back and rest this 314-2!
I really think that playing by feel is almost all related to visual.
I think we're on the same page actually.
Royce
Details....details....
How about "younger" and "older"?
There just appears to be a trend away from the long, fluid warm-up strokes. Why that is, I'm not entirely sure.
It sounds like we are all leaning towards the idea that amateur players are using a portion of their practice strokes to check the straightness of their cueing and maybe to gauge the speed of the shot, while pros aren't really worried too much about either since they can just see or feel the shot almost instinctively. So they can just focus on the fine tuning.
If this is true, it makes me wonder if many of us aren't just fooling ourselves a bit while down over the ball. Can we really straighten out our strokes during the course of a few practice strokes? Can we really get the speed of the shot down while cueing a few practice hits?
I'm kind of thinking that if all the heavy lifting is done before you get down over the ball, there's probably not much we can do at that point to ensure our strokes will be straight. I suppose we all need some way to check our alignment and maybe that's what most of us are doing, but possibly in a very noisy sort of way.
As far as the gauging the speed of the shot is concerned, a good way to test this out would be to shoot some lag shots with and without the extended practice strokes. I may try this out when I get a chance. I'll shoot some lag shots with the typical practice stroke routine, where I loosen up the arm and try to get a feel for the shot and then I'll do it the other way -- where I try to get the feel for the shot while standing, then I get down and just focus on a really measured hit on the cue ball.
I'm starting to wonder if many of us are just adding too much noise to the shot. Instead of taking in the totality of the shot while standing (and not just the aim part) we think we can take in much of the shot after we are down on it. Whereas, I'm thinking the trend amongst the elite players is to take it ALL IN while standing and then just get down and focus on hitting the cue properly.
Of course, these are just my current observations and they are subject to change…
Thanks to everyone who has chimed in here.
Last edited:
Lots of great points made in this thread. Excellent discussion...
Is it possible to maybe do a bit of both? I feel like I start with a measuring stroke and finish with a final practice stroke?
In golf, when it comes time to putt I always walk (or try to park the cart) in a way that allows me to approach the green and read the contour from a distance. So, I begin reading my putt before I ever step to the green. Once I have the line in my mind, I take a couple of practice strokes next to the ball, while visualizing the line to the hole, and then to zero in on the speed I'm wanting to duplicate. I'm consistently one of the better putters in whatever foursome I'm with. On that note, Often my brother in law is in the group and he pointed out that my putting improved greatly since I put a pool table in my house.
Similarly in pool, I've found that I approach my next shot at the table much in the same way, staring down the OB's contact spot needed to make the shot I'm visualizing. I catch myself doing that from the moment I get out of the chair sometimes...
Then, after surveying the table and figuring out best position on the next ball(s) and I get down to hit the cue ball, the length and aggressiveness of my PSR strokes are dictated by the overall dynamics of the shot. Longer bridge distance, longer stroke, etc... So, probably more of a measurer at that point. If CB is in a cluster and I need to be more careful as to not touch or move another ball on the table, that is taken into consideration, but I still try as much as possible to keep glancing at my aiming point.
So, my eyes are primarily on the OB at first, looking specifically at the spot on the OB where I want the CB to make contact... Then I'll glance at the CB to visualize if what I have lined up will allow the CB to strike the OB where I envision it needs to happen to pocket the ball... (still measuring) If I'm off by just a little, that's when I make small adjustments with my bridge hand and do a final practice stroke (now warm-up stroke)and then hit the CB. If I'm off by more than feels comfortable, I'll stand up and re-approach the CB. At time of striking the CB, my eyes are on my OB's aiming point. And all of this happens in a matter of a few seconds. I am generally what you'd call a relatively normal to fast-paced player.
With all of that said, what I think holds me back in this game more than anything is my last conscious thought before I strike the ball. Keeping distracting things out of my mind and going on "auto-pilot" is a challenge for me, but when I force the issue to think to myself "stroke straight through it right there" then I make the shot and get the shape I wanted. Going about it this way has greatly improved my game.
Conversely, when I think things like "don't miss this shot....," or "wow, that chick is hot..." or "that guy is trying to walk by..." I usually miss...
Is it possible to maybe do a bit of both? I feel like I start with a measuring stroke and finish with a final practice stroke?
In golf, when it comes time to putt I always walk (or try to park the cart) in a way that allows me to approach the green and read the contour from a distance. So, I begin reading my putt before I ever step to the green. Once I have the line in my mind, I take a couple of practice strokes next to the ball, while visualizing the line to the hole, and then to zero in on the speed I'm wanting to duplicate. I'm consistently one of the better putters in whatever foursome I'm with. On that note, Often my brother in law is in the group and he pointed out that my putting improved greatly since I put a pool table in my house.
Similarly in pool, I've found that I approach my next shot at the table much in the same way, staring down the OB's contact spot needed to make the shot I'm visualizing. I catch myself doing that from the moment I get out of the chair sometimes...
Then, after surveying the table and figuring out best position on the next ball(s) and I get down to hit the cue ball, the length and aggressiveness of my PSR strokes are dictated by the overall dynamics of the shot. Longer bridge distance, longer stroke, etc... So, probably more of a measurer at that point. If CB is in a cluster and I need to be more careful as to not touch or move another ball on the table, that is taken into consideration, but I still try as much as possible to keep glancing at my aiming point.
So, my eyes are primarily on the OB at first, looking specifically at the spot on the OB where I want the CB to make contact... Then I'll glance at the CB to visualize if what I have lined up will allow the CB to strike the OB where I envision it needs to happen to pocket the ball... (still measuring) If I'm off by just a little, that's when I make small adjustments with my bridge hand and do a final practice stroke (now warm-up stroke)and then hit the CB. If I'm off by more than feels comfortable, I'll stand up and re-approach the CB. At time of striking the CB, my eyes are on my OB's aiming point. And all of this happens in a matter of a few seconds. I am generally what you'd call a relatively normal to fast-paced player.
With all of that said, what I think holds me back in this game more than anything is my last conscious thought before I strike the ball. Keeping distracting things out of my mind and going on "auto-pilot" is a challenge for me, but when I force the issue to think to myself "stroke straight through it right there" then I make the shot and get the shape I wanted. Going about it this way has greatly improved my game.
Conversely, when I think things like "don't miss this shot....," or "wow, that chick is hot..." or "that guy is trying to walk by..." I usually miss...
Last edited:
I think players use their warm up strokes to get comfortable and for the body to demonstrate to the eyes and brain that it’s going to do as instructed. But I also believe that this evolves with a player's experience and skill level.
For amateur players that may mean getting loose, making sure they’re aligned in the general direction of the shot and pocket, and that they're about to hit the CB somewhere on the side or half of the CB they think will pocket the ball and garner some semblance of position. To a large extent their warm ups are a confidence builder.
Later on, much of that isn’t even a thought. Instead the more advanced player doesn’t have to guess about where to hit the CB. Lining up on the shot is second nature. They know precisely the tiny little spot on the CB that will produce the results they want, with a high degree of confidence. And they know what speed to employ to make the shot and lay the CB down where they want. For them the warm ups are just to double check what they’ve already decided and visualized in their mind’s eye.
For the pros… I dan’t know, but I would guess that they’re at the point where it’s not about one shot but, in instances where it applies, the runout. IOWs by the time they approach the table they’ve already constructed the run out in their head and the warm up and delivery are almost unnecessary and become subconscious. They’re in the moment and playing in the manner that all those Zen and Inner Game books talk about.
Overall when I think about all this it reminds of how it was learning to drive. How left-hand turns in traffic or parallel parking were death-defying acts. Years later you don't even think about it and are on the phone and sipping your Starbucks while changing lanes in heavy LA traffic at 80 MPH.
Lou Figueroa
Ok, you've spelled don't that way twice in this thread, and ~40 times on AZB. Since I know you're an accomplished writer, I must ask: what's up with that? Is it an affectation, a regional dialect, digital Tourette's, or what?
Ok, you've spelled don't that way twice in this thread, and ~40 times on AZB. Since I know you're an accomplished writer, I must ask: what's up with that? Is it an affectation, a regional dialect, digital Tourette's, or what?
lol. OK.
So it's kind of hard to explain because it doesn't really follow any kind of linear logic but it goes something like this: I am a pool forum dinosaur going all the way back to RSB and ASP in the late 90's. And there are a couple of things from that era that I still try and pay tribute to.
First and foremost is Smorg. If you don't recognize the name check out some of the items of his that folks have reposted in the weird bets thread. And in tribute, I often use "(insert flashback music)" to start off a tale, which was one of his trademarks. And I often try and use post scripts under my sig to emulate what he'd do, at which he was a master.
The other thing that was often, for unknown reasons, a touchstone back then was "I Love Lucy." Like, "Lucy, you got some splain' to do" as Ricky Richardo would often say. And one of the other things he'd often do was mispronounce "don't" as "dan't."
Now, I know none of that makes any sense whatsoever. But it does to me somehow, and maybe a few other pool forum old-timers, in some small way. Anywho's, that's the story and it's habit now. Hope not to offend
Lou Figueroa
Last edited: