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Shane's racking "trick"
- Thread starter arps
- Start date
Suckers do!
How do you have the US OPEN and no referee and no neutral racker? And who touches the rack after the rack is lifted? I have done it very seldom to freeze and errant ball just because I don't want to mess with reracking.
It seems to me that if this were something a player did every rack then it would be easy to see and stop.
I wonder though how many of the pros there have put in hours on the break DURING the event like Shane has?
It seems to me that if this were something a player did every rack then it would be easy to see and stop.
I wonder though how many of the pros there have put in hours on the break DURING the event like Shane has?
Bonus Ball might have done lots of stuff wrong but one thing was right, the ref racked the balls and the bonus ball girl spotted the bonus ball. :grin:
Yup, like a card player who practices base dealing?
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SVB and others practice thier break for hours just like card sharks (cheats). They change balls around and try cracks here and there until they get the best spread. They also practice legal things too, like speed. angle, and the best place to break from. Funny, the U.S is the only country that don't have refs racking and watching for fouls. If promoters can't afford a ref or won't use volenteers, maybe they should not be promoters. Johnnyt
Second dealing and bottom dealing or knowing how to set up a rack is great for entertainment purposes but used in a real game it's cheating, plain and simple.
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Niels did not play Shane in this match.
Is he able to see gaps from the bleachers?
I stopped using my Diamond wood rack years ago,
because it would not rack tight.
I think if Shane was adjusting the one ball, It was to tighten it to the rack.
Niels is one of my favorite players, but this is just sour grapes.
Is he able to see gaps from the bleachers?
I stopped using my Diamond wood rack years ago,
because it would not rack tight.
I think if Shane was adjusting the one ball, It was to tighten it to the rack.
Niels is one of my favorite players, but this is just sour grapes.
Practicing how to rack and how to break and how to read racks doesn't make one a cheater.
If someone does something that is explicitly against the rules and the rules are sufficiently precise to eliminate ambiguity then that is cheating.
The real problem as you pointed out is the lack of neutral rackers.
People simply can't decide what they want.
You want tight racks with zero gaps then use racking templates. You want inconsistent rack with gaps that either favor or hurt the breaker then use triangles and let the players rack for themselves.
Years ago when we played the RYO McDermott tour the rule IIRC was that you rack your own and the opponent can inspect it. When your opponent was satisfied then you could break. I don't consider this to be a good solution either.
Go to Justin's Bucket Splash - completely random layouts.
Or reward those who put in the TIME to learn what they need to know about the break. We keep saying it's the most important shot of the game and here you have players who put in immense hours figuring it out and we want to punish them instead of reward them.
To me if Shane is truly doing something to the rack to insure a ball on the break then perhaps all the other pros should learn how to do it and then raise the bar so that the advantage, if there is one, is nullified.
Perhaps it is sour grapes. However it is troubling that Darren Appleton and Scott Frost posted on FB in support of Niels' comment/allegation. That tells me that either it is true that the best cheated to win here at the open or it is true that pro players are campaigning to undermine the very sport that provides them a living. Either way, a major problem obviously exists.
Gee Niels, you want some cheese with that whine? What a pussy. And all this time I thought everyone was playing with the same equipment.
Reading the rack is one thing. But if the above is true, then it is against the spirit of the game at a minimum and it is certainly cheating in my view.
I've been sweating Niels' action from afar for many years now. The first United States tournament he attended was the U.S. Open in 2003. Thereafter, he became very active on the international pool scene.
I have seen him accept defeat like a gentleman many times. He is just as much a gracious winner as he is a loser.
Does he complain about table conditions or sharking or things like that? Sure.
That said, I believe him about the rack-rigging. I do not think Niels would make such an declaration unless it was 100 percent true. :frown:
Here's a photo I took in 2003 at that Open. Keith ended up defeating Niels that year, and Niels shook his hand like a professional. There were no sour grapes.
There are certain players that do whine and moan after the fact. Niels ain't one of them.
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I believe Niels 100% as I was with a pro one night along with another strong player friend of mine. We talked about Shane's 10 ball break & the pro explained what the main trick was to it & you guessed it, it was gaps. I practiced it on my home table & I was able to make at least 2 balls on the majority of my 10 ball breaks as to where I was lucky to make one the majority of the time.
I find Feijen's comment, "whoever knows the tricks/cheats gets the edge" implies that Shane is cheating. If find this statement very unprofessional to come from a world champion. He is entitled to his opinion (and I actually agree with some of them). But to call out a fellow player for cheating on a public forum like Facebook shows that he has no class. There is so much commentary about pool not being where it should be ... Well, when you have world champions that are paid by their sponsors to inspire people and new kids getting into the game, making low class public statements like this does nothing for the sport ... if people don't believe Feijen, they'll think he is scum ... if they believe Feijen, they'll think Shane is scum. Either way, it hurts the game. And it is not something I want my 10yo kid to read ... who right now, looks at these guys like they are Tiger Woods.
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I used to think the same thing. But the fact that pool is deemed to be malleable by promoters who just make up rules as they go along I think now that players should also have every right to exploit every possible advantage they can legally discover.
The spirit of the game has been one of cat and mouse between professionals who learn everything about how the balls react and the rules and the rules makers who seek to create an atmosphere that they think is fair to all but in the end proves not to be.
The US Open for example is a WPA sanctioned event. Yet, the promoters and TD feel that they have the right to and even feel obligated to jack around with the rules.
So why shouldn't the players respond with figuring out how to rack optimally?
If promoters and tournament directors are so concerned about it then why not have neutral rackers? Why not use template racks and thus every player has a 100% frozen rack to start with.
Oh wait then the players who put in 18 hour days on the break figuring out the frozen rack dynamics have an advantage over those who won't spend the time doing that.
I think if we really want the spirit of the game to be healthy we need to have a unified set of rules that are the same all over the world and every tournament everywhere should abide by those rules. We should start to act like a serious sport and then we can talk about what's really "cheating" and what's not.
Kind of unfair to tell a player who benefits from an ability to read gaps and break to his advantage that he isn't allowed to create gaps when you force him to rack for himself. To me racking for yourself is quite demeaning and it sets up the type of situation that we now have where players can be accused of rack rigging.
Efren said that he would observe the flukes that amateurs made randomly and then go to the table and figure out how to create the same shots on purpose. Why are players being called cheaters who essentially have taken what was random and made it deliberate?
Most of the players are tricking the rack. It's certainly not just Shane. Not even close. The opponent has the right to inspect the rack. Most did not.
The racking rules are the culprit, not the players.
Freddie <~~~ not just for kids
Hey, let's face it. Breaking and racking is one of pool's biggest flaws to date. Whenever they changae the rules, the rack, the spot on the table, where to break from on the table, you can be sure that a veteran pool player will figure out how to beat the odds.
Should this be considered part of the strategy to win? Corey Deuel is the master when it comes to figuring out how to beat the odds. I kind of always admired that about him, actually. :grin-square:
At the 2007 World 9-Ball Championship in Philippines, they were all doing the bird break, the soft break that I believe Corey was the first one to experiment with. Bustie has always been known as a powerful breaker, and when I saw him at the 2007 World 9-Ball Championship breaking the balls at what looked to me like 10 mph, I knew something was rotten in Denmark. Again, they were all doing it. Daryl Peach happened to master the bird break that year and won. Thereafter, they changed the rules to 3 balls past the side pocket to avoid the bird breaks in future competitions.
When I attended Allen Hopkins Skins Billiards Championship in Atlantic City, NJ, it was announced at the players meeting that nobody would be able to rack the balls, and nobody would be able to dispute the rack. That's how the tournament proceeded. The referee racked the balls each time and the match began.
This is what needs to happen, and until it does, we will continue to have these conversations. :sorry:
Should this be considered part of the strategy to win? Corey Deuel is the master when it comes to figuring out how to beat the odds. I kind of always admired that about him, actually. :grin-square:
At the 2007 World 9-Ball Championship in Philippines, they were all doing the bird break, the soft break that I believe Corey was the first one to experiment with. Bustie has always been known as a powerful breaker, and when I saw him at the 2007 World 9-Ball Championship breaking the balls at what looked to me like 10 mph, I knew something was rotten in Denmark. Again, they were all doing it. Daryl Peach happened to master the bird break that year and won. Thereafter, they changed the rules to 3 balls past the side pocket to avoid the bird breaks in future competitions.
When I attended Allen Hopkins Skins Billiards Championship in Atlantic City, NJ, it was announced at the players meeting that nobody would be able to rack the balls, and nobody would be able to dispute the rack. That's how the tournament proceeded. The referee racked the balls each time and the match began.
This is what needs to happen, and until it does, we will continue to have these conversations. :sorry:
Hey, let's face it. Breaking and racking is one of pool's biggest flaws to date. Whenever they changae the rules, the rack, the spot on the table, where to break from on the table, you can be sure that a veteran pool player will figure out how to beat the odds.
Should this be considered part of the strategy to win? Corey Deuel is the master when it comes to figuring out how to beat the odds. I kind of always admired that about him, actually. :grin-square:
At the 2007 World 9-Ball Championship in Philippines, they were all doing the bird break, the soft break that I believe Corey was the first one to experiment with. Bustie has always been known as a powerful breaker, and when I saw him at the 2007 World 9-Ball Championship breaking the balls at what looked to me like 10 mph, I knew something was rotten in Denmark. Again, they were all doing it. Daryl Peach happened to master the bird break that year and won. Thereafter, they changed the rules to 3 balls past the side pocket to avoid the bird breaks in future competitions.
When I attended Allen Hopkins Skins Billiards Championship in Atlantic City, NJ, it was announced at the players meeting that nobody would be able to rack the balls, and nobody would be able to dispute the rack. That's how the tournament proceeded. The referee racked the balls each time and the match began.
This is what needs to happen, and until it does, we will continue to have these conversations. :sorry:
And you want to know a great irony in that event? I was there and Predator had handed out their new break cue like candy on Halloween. All the players were told that they would get money if they used it on the tv table. So almost every player on the tv tables used a Predator to break with. Softly.
Firstly, I am certainly not saying that anyone has cheated. I was not there and I didn't even watch the stream. But, I do firmly believe that creating gaps on purpose is cheating, period. By all means, spend time learning the optimal break. That is what pros and students of the game to do improve. But I do believe that racking involves 100% frozen balls or (and this is key) 100% honest effort to achieve the perfect frozen rack or as close to that ideal as possible.
As an aside, I do feel that short rack games lead more to this type of unfortunate interplay than full rack games. For the life of me, I can't fathom why pros are not playing 15 ball. Then, even if someone "rigs" the rack, at least they still have to run a lot of balls in order to prevail.