What I've learned after 2 months of tap..

trob

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I posted a story a while back how bad the apa operators are in our area and that I was going to get tap in york. Well I accomplished that. I got enough teams together to start a league here in York and we've even infiltrated a sports bar down town with 2 teams that was an apa strong hold that at one time wouldn't let other leagues in. I thought in this league I'm going to keep myself a six. I'm going to play the sandbag game like everyone else... They made me a 7 after 1 damn week of play lol and I tried for a few weeks to keep misses up and lost a few matches but last night I decided the hell with it..it's not me. so here's the few things I've learned.

!) I CAN'T SAND BAG.. I've been playing this game for 25 years with the thought process that I want to destroy the guy across from me and I like it that way. I worked hard to be a good local player and I'm not intentionally missing for some handy cap league. It's just against my nature.
2) I play in this league so I can play with my wife and son who both aren't good players but enjoy the game and I like a night out with them.They don't have my drive to be as good at the game and that's ok because they enjoy playing it. so on the table what I get out the league Is I love spotting games and the pressure of digging myself out of the hole.! beating up on lesser teams in bca and acs every week gets old and this makes it pretty equal matching up handy caps and keeps that keeps it interesting.

I know you lifer apa or tap players will think I'm an idiot and I won't be able to compete in regionals let alone if we ever make it to nationals but oh well. You know sandbagging to me is like steroids.. a lot of players did it in baseball because they had to to keep up with the players who were getting better by already doing it. If everyone would just be honest and play there speed It wouldn't be necessary. :thumbup:

One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
 
I play in a local bar league with my wife for the same reason as you. My wife can't even make a proper bridge and she really has little interest in getting better. But she plays so we can hang out with friends. The only goal for our team is that everyone, including the other teams, all have a good time.
 
trob said:
So I posted a story a while back how bad the apa operators are in our area and that I was going to get tap in york. Well I accomplished that. I got enough teams together to start a league here in York and we've even infiltrated a sports bar down town with 2 teams that was an apa strong hold that at one time wouldn't let other leagues in. I thought in this league I'm going to keep myself a six. I'm going to play the sandbag game like everyone else... They made me a 7 after 1 damn week of play lol and I tried for a few weeks to keep misses up and lost a few matches but last night I decided the hell with it..it's not me. so here's the few things I've learned.

!) I CAN'T SAND BAG.. I've been playing this game for 25 years with the thought process that I want to destroy the guy across from me and I like it that way. I worked hard to be a good local player and I'm not intentionally missing for some handy cap league. It's just against my nature.
2) I play in this league so I can play with my wife and son who both aren't good players but enjoy the game and I like a night out with them.They don't have my drive to be as good at the game and that's ok because they enjoy playing it. so on the table what I get out the league Is I love spotting games and the pressure of digging myself out of the hole.! beating up on lesser teams in bca and acs every week gets old and this makes it pretty equal matching up handy caps and keeps that keeps it interesting.

I know you lifer apa or tap players will think I'm an idiot and I won't be able to compete in regionals let alone if we ever make it to nationals but oh well. You know sandbagging to me is like steroids.. a lot of players did it in baseball because they had to to keep up with the players who were getting better by already doing it. If everyone would just be honest and play there speed It wouldn't be necessary. :thumbup:

One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
Click to expand...

After reading the recent thread, I think a better name for sandbagging is HUSTLING.
After all, a sandbagger is doing the same thing. Slowing his "speed" until the money is right. Glad you are now happy with your new league.

Side note.....you may have had a lot of trouble with the APA operators in your area. Not in my area anymore. The players got together and ousted the last one. We now have a stand up guy in charge. A little advice.....if you don't want a pissing match with certain az members, but want to tell us how good tap league is, just don't mention APA at all. It is unnecessary to make your point.
 
Tap, tap, tap...and no that's not a joke! Way to go to play your speed no matter what! If all league players were like you, our game would SOAR to new heights! I hope to meet you some day, and shake your hand! :thumbup2:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

trob said:
So I posted a story a while back how bad the apa operators are in our area and that I was going to get tap in york. Well I accomplished that. I got enough teams together to start a league here in York and we've even infiltrated a sports bar down town with 2 teams that was an apa strong hold that at one time wouldn't let other leagues in. I thought in this league I'm going to keep myself a six. I'm going to play the sandbag game like everyone else... They made me a 7 after 1 damn week of play lol and I tried for a few weeks to keep misses up and lost a few matches but last night I decided the hell with it..it's not me. so here's the few things I've learned.

!) I CAN'T SAND BAG.. I've been playing this game for 25 years with the thought process that I want to destroy the guy across from me and I like it that way. I worked hard to be a good local player and I'm not intentionally missing for some handy cap league. It's just against my nature.
2) I play in this league so I can play with my wife and son who both aren't good players but enjoy the game and I like a night out with them.They don't have my drive to be as good at the game and that's ok because they enjoy playing it. so on the table what I get out the league Is I love spotting games and the pressure of digging myself out of the hole.! beating up on lesser teams in bca and acs every week gets old and this makes it pretty equal matching up handy caps and keeps that keeps it interesting.

I know you lifer apa or tap players will think I'm an idiot and I won't be able to compete in regionals let alone if we ever make it to nationals but oh well. You know sandbagging to me is like steroids.. a lot of players did it in baseball because they had to to keep up with the players who were getting better by already doing it. If everyone would just be honest and play there speed It wouldn't be necessary. :thumbup:

One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
Click to expand...
 
trob said:
One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
Click to expand...

I don't play in leagues now... but when I did, I'd miss intentionally... I didn't miss to just keep my handicap down... I'd would miss to keep my handicap higher.
Most times you couldn't tell if I missed on purpose or not. Maybe it's called strategy... but I'd call it playing the percentages. As long as it was a legal shot, the miss itself is the strategy. The game isn't just about trying to pocket every shot. Playing the game isn't always about winning... sometimes it's about not losing.

Why try to pocket the ball if a loss is inevitable should you not pocket it? Why not legally play safe or actually miss the shot? Why lose the game on purpose?
.
 
That's not the same thing.. Sure I've missed on purpose when I don't have an out and I'm trying to force them into a bad situation. That's called defense. I'm talking about having a wide open run out and you intentionally bang a ball into the rail.


Ralph Kramden said:
I don't play in leagues now... but when I did, I'd miss intentionally... I didn't miss to just keep my handicap down... I'd would miss to keep my handicap higher.
Most times you couldn't tell if I missed on purpose or not. Maybe it's called strategy... but I'd call it playing the percentages. As long as it was a legal shot, the miss itself is the strategy. The game isn't just about trying to pocket every shot. Playing the game isn't always about winning... sometimes it's about not losing.

Why try to pocket the ball if a loss is inevitable should you not pocket it? Why not legally play safe or actually miss the shot? Why lose the game on purpose?
.
Click to expand...
 
trob said:
That's not the same thing.. Sure I've missed on purpose when I don't have an out and I'm trying to force them into a bad situation. That's called defense. I'm talking about having a wide open run out and you intentionally bang a ball into the rail.
Click to expand...

I usually call a safe in that situation. So there are no mistaking my intentions. Even though I don't have to call it, its more sportsman like.
 
trob said:
So I posted a story a while back how bad the apa operators are in our area and that I was going to get tap in york. Well I accomplished that. I got enough teams together to start a league here in York and we've even infiltrated a sports bar down town with 2 teams that was an apa strong hold that at one time wouldn't let other leagues in. I thought in this league I'm going to keep myself a six. I'm going to play the sandbag game like everyone else... They made me a 7 after 1 damn week of play lol and I tried for a few weeks to keep misses up and lost a few matches but last night I decided the hell with it..it's not me. so here's the few things I've learned.

!) I CAN'T SAND BAG.. I've been playing this game for 25 years with the thought process that I want to destroy the guy across from me and I like it that way. I worked hard to be a good local player and I'm not intentionally missing for some handy cap league. It's just against my nature. Trob, this is why I friended you. You are a class act, and I agree, in principle.
2) I play in this league so I can play with my wife and son who both aren't good players but enjoy the game and I like a night out with them.They don't have my drive to be as good at the game and that's ok because they enjoy playing it. so on the table what I get out the league Is I love spotting games and the pressure of digging myself out of the hole.! beating up on lesser teams in bca and acs every week gets old and this makes it pretty equal matching up handy caps and keeps that keeps it interesting.

I know you lifer apa or tap players will think I'm an idiot and I won't be able to compete in regionals let alone if we ever make it to nationals but oh well. You know sandbagging to me is like steroids.. a lot of players did it in baseball because they had to to keep up with the players who were getting better by already doing it. If everyone would just be honest and play there speed It wouldn't be necessary. :thumbup:

One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
Click to expand...

Ralph Kramden said:
I don't play in leagues now... but when I did, I'd miss intentionally... I didn't miss to just keep my handicap down... I'd would miss to keep my handicap higher.
Most times you couldn't tell if I missed on purpose or not. Maybe it's called strategy... but I'd call it playing the percentages. As long as it was a legal shot, the miss itself is the strategy. The game isn't just about trying to pocket every shot. Playing the game isn't always about winning... sometimes it's about not losing.
 I could care less about my "rating" I always considered it a guide at best. Sometimes just blocking a pocket,(esp. against a S/L 3-4)is better than making the ball.
Why try to pocket the ball if a loss is inevitable should you not pocket it? Why not legally play safe or actually miss the shot? Why lose the game on purpose?
.
Click to expand...

Winning is important, but sometimes it is how you win
 
trob said:
So I posted a story a while back how bad the apa operators are in our area and that I was going to get tap in york. Well I accomplished that. I got enough teams together to start a league here in York and we've even infiltrated a sports bar down town with 2 teams that was an apa strong hold that at one time wouldn't let other leagues in. I thought in this league I'm going to keep myself a six. I'm going to play the sandbag game like everyone else... They made me a 7 after 1 damn week of play lol and I tried for a few weeks to keep misses up and lost a few matches but last night I decided the hell with it..it's not me. so here's the few things I've learned.

!) I CAN'T SAND BAG.. I've been playing this game for 25 years with the thought process that I want to destroy the guy across from me and I like it that way. I worked hard to be a good local player and I'm not intentionally missing for some handy cap league. It's just against my nature.
2) I play in this league so I can play with my wife and son who both aren't good players but enjoy the game and I like a night out with them.They don't have my drive to be as good at the game and that's ok because they enjoy playing it. so on the table what I get out the league Is I love spotting games and the pressure of digging myself out of the hole.! beating up on lesser teams in bca and acs every week gets old and this makes it pretty equal matching up handy caps and keeps that keeps it interesting.

I know you lifer apa or tap players will think I'm an idiot and I won't be able to compete in regionals let alone if we ever make it to nationals but oh well. You know sandbagging to me is like steroids.. a lot of players did it in baseball because they had to to keep up with the players who were getting better by already doing it. If everyone would just be honest and play there speed It wouldn't be necessary. :thumbup:

One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
Click to expand...

You deserve credit for taking action instead of just complaining by starting your own tap league.

I watched Mike Sigel give a demonstration of his league and I would suggest taking a look at it. His bih system seems to make it difficult to profit from sandbagging.

If sandbagging is an issue, that might be a solution.
 
When I keep score I don't let people call shots all the time just so they can be credited for a miss instead of a safe. I have had a lot of people call super hard banks when the pocket was clearly blocked by balls and you had some odd angle to begin with as a called shot.

I just mark it up as a safe since its clear they are just hitting the ball with no chance of it going in and putting the cueball in a bad spot for the opponent. I don't care if they called the pocket as a shot, there is no chance of it going in, you try to hide the cueball, it's a safe.
 
hang-the-9 said:
When I keep score I don't let people call shots all the time just so they can be credited for a miss instead of a safe. I have had a lot of people call super hard banks when the pocket was clearly blocked by balls and you had some odd angle to begin with as a called shot.

I just mark it up as a safe since its clear they are just hitting the ball with no chance of it going in and putting the cueball in a bad spot for the opponent. I don't care if they called the pocket as a shot, there is no chance of it going in, you try to hide the cueball, it's a safe.
Click to expand...

i see your point ..to an extent. on the other hand you have to really know your opponents ability . just because you think it may not go does not mean the shooter may think that also.

you remind me of a captain i had a conversation with a while back about marking safes. he thinks like you do. we discussed my pattern selection in my last rack that i won.

i had 2 balls left. one is a hanger in a corner the other is on a side rail with 2 of my opponents balls on either side. i opted to bank cross side then go for the hanger. i over cut by a 1/2 inch and hit the tip of the side pocket.

teir captain marked a safe on that shot. i asked why did he do that ? he said because i passed on an easy shot and made what he thought was an impossible shot.

i asked ...what if i had made that bank ? he said then it would not have been a safe.

i said...let me get this straight. i make a bank...its an offensive shot. of i miss a bank its a defensive shot. he said yea that is correct. i said bullshit. you cannot mark the same shot one way if its good and the other way if you miss.

he said because i passed up an easy hanger and tried a hard bank it was a defensive shot. i asked ...have you ever heard of strategy ? i was shooting to win a match..not just trying to pocket every easy shot.

i said you can not mark an obvious offensive shot a safe just because some one missed or passed up an easy hanger for a harder shot. the rule book states if it is not an obvious offensive shot it is a safty. no where does it state just because you missed a hard shot it should be marked defense.

under your score keeping i would be the worlds biggest sand bagger. :grin-square:

in the last 8 ball ltc i faced a 6 and won 4-3, it went 42 innings with me playing 22 safes iirc and my opponent playing 12 iirc. with your scorekeeping you would have marked about 35 safes on me.:grin-square:
 
alstl said:
I watched Mike Sigel give a demonstration of his league and I would suggest taking a look at it. His bih system seems to make it difficult to profit from sandbagging.
Click to expand...

That's a two way street. You actually don't want a system where there wouldn't be an advantage, but rather a system where it is harder to actually sandbag.

If you have a system where it isn't worth sandbagging then it is very likely a system that is poor at its primary function; providing a system of handicaps across the range of users. For a handicap system to work, there must be an advantage to the lower handicapped player to offset the difference in skill. As long as this exists some people will try to manage their handicaps.
 
trob said:
One last funny thing.. I noticed it's not called sandbagging anymore. It's called STRATEGY! lol Look call it what you want but if your intentionally missing or doing anything to keep your handy cap down it is what it is. Own it don't make excuses for it.
Click to expand...


Well played sir. Unfortunately, I've run into this same mindset in my league. Some people have just have their priorities all mixed up.
 
lorider said:
i see your point ..to an extent. on the other hand you have to really know your opponents ability . just because you think it may not go does not mean the shooter may think that also.

you remind me of a captain i had a conversation with a while back about marking safes. he thinks like you do. we discussed my pattern selection in my last rack that i won.

i had 2 balls left. one is a hanger in a corner the other is on a side rail with 2 of my opponents balls on either side. i opted to bank cross side then go for the hanger. i over cut by a 1/2 inch and hit the tip of the side pocket.

teir captain marked a safe on that shot. i asked why did he do that ? he said because i passed on an easy shot and made what he thought was an impossible shot.

i asked ...what if i had made that bank ? he said then it would not have been a safe.

i said...let me get this straight. i make a bank...its an offensive shot. of i miss a bank its a defensive shot. he said yea that is correct. i said bullshit. you cannot mark the same shot one way if its good and the other way if you miss.

he said because i passed up an easy hanger and tried a hard bank it was a defensive shot. i asked ...have you ever heard of strategy ? i was shooting to win a match..not just trying to pocket every easy shot.

i said you can not mark an obvious offensive shot a safe just because some one missed or passed up an easy hanger for a harder shot. the rule book states if it is not an obvious offensive shot it is a safty. no where does it state just because you missed a hard shot it should be marked defense.

under your score keeping i would be the worlds biggest sand bagger. :grin-square:

in the last 8 ball ltc i faced a 6 and won 4-3, it went 42 innings with me playing 22 safes iirc and my opponent playing 12 iirc. with your scorekeeping you would have marked about 35 safes on me.:grin-square:
Click to expand...

If there were two opponent balls blocking the pocket you were banking to with no room for your ball to go past, I'd mark a safety. Hard shot is a lot different than a "you need an earthquake to move balls for it to go in" shot.

Specifically this is one shot I marked as a safe, he was calling the bank of the red ball past the two green balls. The layout it not exact but to bank it with how the cueball and object balls were would have been a super good shot, to bank it with two balls solidly in the way is not a shot at all.

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hang-the-9 said:
If there were two opponent balls blocking the pocket you were banking to with no room for your ball to go past, I'd mark a safety. Hard shot is a lot different than a "you need an earthquake to move balls for it to go in" shot.

Specifically this is one shot I marked as a safe, he was calling the bank of the red ball past the two green balls. The layout it not exact but to bank it with how the cueball and object balls were would have been a super good shot, to bank it with two balls solidly in the way is not a shot at all.
Click to expand...

That's a grey area to me. I'd mark it depending upon the person's skill level. If a high level player were going for something like that was obviously blocked, I'd mark it a safety. I see lower players going for shots kinda often that I know won't go, but they're still going for it. Just because they don't know doesn't mean it doesn't count as a shot. That could apply to self-defenses, too.
 
The whole "sandbagging" thing has been around for years and it's pretty much turned me completely off for trying to play on a team here in town...

I've always played at 5-6 level over the years of off and on league play and the last time I played was at a regional tournament...I was playing a "2" and had played a really nice safe on him where he had a dead-straight shot from about a foot away where there was no way he was going to make that shot, then get any kind of a leave to get out...Time out was called and after about 45 seconds of coaching, this dude's stance all of a sudden looks like a pro and his stroke somehow turns into a monster and makes me look like a beginner by pulling off a 2-rail draw shot for perfect shape on his next ball, then proceeds to run 6 balls to get out and win...And this happened right in front of the league operator...I unscrewed and told the league operator he had seen my last dollar...

Sandbagging is a plague and I don't see any way to stop it from happening...
 
haywood said:
The whole "sandbagging" thing has been around for years and it's pretty much turned me completely off for trying to play on a team here in town...

I've always played at 5-6 level over the years of off and on league play and the last time I played was at a regional tournament...I was playing a "2" and had played a really nice safe on him where he had a dead-straight shot from about a foot away where there was no way he was going to make that shot, then get any kind of a leave to get out...Time out was called and after about 45 seconds of coaching, this dude's stance all of a sudden looks like a pro and his stroke somehow turns into a monster and makes me look like a beginner by pulling off a 2-rail draw shot for perfect shape on his next ball, then proceeds to run 6 balls to get out and win...And this happened right in front of the league operator...I unscrewed and told the league operator he had seen my last dollar...

Sandbagging is a plague and I don't see any way to stop it from happening...
Click to expand...

Curious as to what league you were playing in?
 
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