Pros playing on bar boxes.....
- Thread starter tksix
- Start date
I have to agree. Although I'm not a personal fan of barbox play (which, if we take it away, we'd take away BigTruck's source of income!), I do appreciate the level of play I see when pros play on them. The delicate touch of sheer cue ball control is exquisite. Granted, to stroke afficionados it's "bunt pool," but there is an art to a precise touch and precision in navigating small windows.
I use to bash barbox play not too long ago as well, because I thought the play was constrained by coin-op play. Then, one year while vacationing with my folks out in Lakewood, Colorado, I went to Greenfields Sports Bar which is a local APA haunt, which I knew had only barboxes, but for the short distance, I had no choice. It was within walking distance, and I felt like having a beer or three.
Well, the night I went, they had "open table night" -- which basically meant they unlocked the side of every table and everyone got to play for free for the whole night.
This pushed my "anti-coin-op" bias aside, because now I was free to play any game I wanted -- including ones that required spotting balls, etc.
I started lining up the pints of Guinness, and went to work setting up for some 14.1 practice. Set up a break ball, and ka-blam! Rack after rack, and I was having a blast. Ended up having a 140+ run that night, and I was enjoying it the whole time. (It's nice to let your hair down on your fundamentals every once in a while, and feel free to whack 'em with reckless abandon even on the most ridiculous of breakshots that you'd never attempt on a big table.) I stumbled out of there that night, but smiling ear to ear. That was the most fun I had playing pool in a l-o-n-g time!
So, I have a "tip o' the hat" nod to bar tables for that kind of experience.
-Sean
This is a classic example of why bar boxes are so much fun for people, from beginner to advanced. They let you feel like a pro, or at least let you feel like you know what you are doing. And it's this enjoyment that inspires people to keep playing, some of which will want to improve and move to bigger tables. But even if they have no interest in that, they'll keep coming back to that fun little box. Which imo, is way better than not playing at all.
Yes, bar boxes have always been about maximizing space and revenue, and because of that, pool has been available to many more people than it otherwise would have without them. I am one of those people that had limited access to pool halls but as a young teen, I could walk 2 blocks into a local mom and pop store that had a Valley in the back game room. Even today, I have to drive at least 30 minutes to a proper pool hall. Which isn't real far, but sometimes an hour drive is an hour drive and I've got several bar tables within walking distance.
I don't mind watching pros playing on any size table. I don't mind what game or rules they play. I like variety, it's the spice of life. I would like to see more 10 foot tournaments but I don't feel that all have to be that way.
I don't know that I agree...
I've traveled the whole country and played on many ten footers. The ten footer at Steinway plays good, but the best ten footer hands down is the diamond blue label ten footer.
In fact, that is my favorite table to play on period... An Ernesto tight gold crown and a diamond blue label nine footer are tied for my second favorite...
Of barboxes, only the diamond's are enjoyable to play on.
I've played on the Steinway ten footer and the tenfooter at shit I can't remember now, is it St louis maybe??? and a handful of others across the nation.
I played on the diamond ten footer that's in Ohio, can't remember the name of the city it's in or the pool hall, but it was the ten footer from Mark Gregory's? tourney that first used the ten footer.
All the poolhall's and tables blend together, but that one stands out in my mind because it was so enjoyable to play on.
It was the first blue label that I played on and the rails banked true (that stands out in my mind).
While the ten footer at Steinway plays good, it seemed a little gaffy to me (don't know why or how though).
Jaden
I've traveled the whole country and played on many ten footers. The ten footer at Steinway plays good, but the best ten footer hands down is the diamond blue label ten footer.
In fact, that is my favorite table to play on period... An Ernesto tight gold crown and a diamond blue label nine footer are tied for my second favorite...
Of barboxes, only the diamond's are enjoyable to play on.
I've played on the Steinway ten footer and the tenfooter at shit I can't remember now, is it St louis maybe??? and a handful of others across the nation.
I played on the diamond ten footer that's in Ohio, can't remember the name of the city it's in or the pool hall, but it was the ten footer from Mark Gregory's? tourney that first used the ten footer.
All the poolhall's and tables blend together, but that one stands out in my mind because it was so enjoyable to play on.
It was the first blue label that I played on and the rails banked true (that stands out in my mind).
While the ten footer at Steinway plays good, it seemed a little gaffy to me (don't know why or how though).
Jaden
YEs and no...
I think it detracts people from growing in billiards more than it attracts them.
This is why I think that is. It is TOO much easier to pocket balls on a little table.
This makes learning the nuances of the game more difficult because you don't need to.
People who learn on a little table and then move to the bigger table get frustrated and then move back to the little table to avoid that frustration.
They're two different games. You don't play position the same way, there are really no long shots on a bar box, so you don't have to move around the table as much and you choose the easier shape and the longer shot on a barbox versus the big table.
If you play the same way on a big table, you'll miss MANY more shots.
For serious pool players, you need to learn and play the first few years exclusively on the big table IMO, and THEN move down to and figure out how to play on a little table.
Jaden
I think it detracts people from growing in billiards more than it attracts them.
This is why I think that is. It is TOO much easier to pocket balls on a little table.
This makes learning the nuances of the game more difficult because you don't need to.
People who learn on a little table and then move to the bigger table get frustrated and then move back to the little table to avoid that frustration.
They're two different games. You don't play position the same way, there are really no long shots on a bar box, so you don't have to move around the table as much and you choose the easier shape and the longer shot on a barbox versus the big table.
If you play the same way on a big table, you'll miss MANY more shots.
For serious pool players, you need to learn and play the first few years exclusively on the big table IMO, and THEN move down to and figure out how to play on a little table.
Jaden
I seem to remember Shane saying this as well, I think he said it during a TAR interview if memory serves? but I may be wrong, I believe he said it was his best game in his opinion.
I think a bar box is just a type of pool table. There are all kinds of tables out there, be it a 7 foot bar box, 8 foot table, 9 foot table or the 10 foot tables we see now. They are all pool tables and granted the 10 foot may be the most challenging the smaller tables still take skill and in some ways are more of a challenge (more clusters, tighter position play required in some instances, etc).
I definitely don't think it's disrespectful for a pro to play on one even though it may not be as big a challenge. By the same token many golf courses are easier but 'pros' still play on them and people still enjoy watching them play.
Personally, I love to watch the pros play on bar boxes
I like to see racks stacked together and like the pressure of knowing that if one of them makes even one mistake it could cost them the match. To me, that's excitement Of course by same token I also prefer winner breaks, etc...One other thing I don't think you can argue is there are definitely more bar boxes in this country than all other tables combined. Most importantly, those are the tables that I would wager over 70% of the average pool players in this country play on and those are the tables they know and are familiar with. That's why I agree with what has already been mentioned that the IPT made a good choice in having 8 ball be the game, the average working Joe is more familiar with it and understood it better...hence more interest.
So bash me if you want but my opinion is bar boxes should not be bashed in any way. They are still a pool table and great pool CAN be played on them.
:thumbup:
I love watching a good safety battle between pros. However I would like to see them try tougher shots rather than playing safe. I think you see a more aggressive game on a bar box. Rarely do you see a pro try a long bank on a 9 ft. I doubt the stats would show a significant difference between tables.
Diamond Bar Table
:groucho:If there ever was a perfect marriage between a pool table and a game, it would be a pro cut Diamond bar table and a game of 8 ball.
Diamond is the best playing bar table Period. :thumbup:
When you get to the bigger tables....lets just say there has been allot of great competition in this arena for 100's of years, but the Diamond Bar Table and the way it plays, and the advanced board play needed at times to extrapolate an 8ball run out can be truly invigorating if you have the knowledge to see it unfold. I watched Shane play shape for a ball @ 4 Bears this past March/April, that no one saw was there, and it was truly one of those shots that will always stick with ya.
No Diamonds YET @ the Bear:sad:
:groucho:If there ever was a perfect marriage between a pool table and a game, it would be a pro cut Diamond bar table and a game of 8 ball.
Diamond is the best playing bar table Period. :thumbup:
When you get to the bigger tables....lets just say there has been allot of great competition in this arena for 100's of years, but the Diamond Bar Table and the way it plays, and the advanced board play needed at times to extrapolate an 8ball run out can be truly invigorating if you have the knowledge to see it unfold. I watched Shane play shape for a ball @ 4 Bears this past March/April, that no one saw was there, and it was truly one of those shots that will always stick with ya.
No Diamonds YET @ the Bear:sad:
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There used to be a nice players pool hall in Memphis called... Players
I'm sure several posters here remember it and I know one was even owner of it. Anyway, they had an old Irving Kaye barbox with pockets that were tighter than who'd a thunk it... Many times that table put the trap on people
So yeah, a tight bar box can definitely be a challenge
There used to be a nice players pool hall in Memphis called... Players
Anyway, they had an old Irving Kaye barbox with pockets that were tighter than who'd a thunk it... Many times that table put the trap on people
So yeah, a tight bar box can definitely be a challenge
Yeah,
Madsen's in NE had all Irv's in there, pockets were tight, just had to stand UP, after each shot, next take a step back and ''away'' from the table, THEN walk to your next shot. This way the head of the animal on each corner pocket ironscouldn't rip ya a good one.
While I agree with a lot of what you say about them being different, I do not believe it detracts from them growing in the game no more than t-ball detracts from kids growing to be baseball players. For this reason I don't think it's mandatory that people start on full size tables and work down...although if someone prefers that, more power to them. I actually learned that way, but I don't think that's how it has to be for everyone.
People play either seriously, (money and improvement) or for fun. Serious people will grow no matter what table they are on, and people will play only for fun if that's what they are most interested in. Whether one is more interested in improvement or just goofing off, these are personal traits, and a table doesn't make you this way or the other. At best, it can only enable what you already have in you personally. So whether you are committed to improvement or only to having fun, a table can never keep one from doing what they wish to do.
You take away bar tables and that will not improve the overall skill levels of our pool population. You will simply decrease the amount of people playing...which decreases the pool of possible talent and opportunities. It's like a AA school with less than a thousand kids vs the AAAA school with 4000 kids.
Sean,
I recently covered the biggest entry Big Table event EVER on american soil. We had Efren, Busty, Josh Roberts, Chip & Joey, Bergman, Scott Frost and Corey Deuel. I also covered the Ultimate 10 Ball, Big Dog Billiards, Green Room, Memphis Open and all Fight Night Matches and the action room at Derby City and Tunica. All on Big tables. I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting about.
I love some aspects of play on all tables. I think players should play all games and on all tables to be well rounded.
Ray :thumbup:
I recently covered the biggest entry Big Table event EVER on american soil. We had Efren, Busty, Josh Roberts, Chip & Joey, Bergman, Scott Frost and Corey Deuel. I also covered the Ultimate 10 Ball, Big Dog Billiards, Green Room, Memphis Open and all Fight Night Matches and the action room at Derby City and Tunica. All on Big tables. I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting about.
I love some aspects of play on all tables. I think players should play all games and on all tables to be well rounded.
Ray :thumbup:
I have to agree. Although I'm not a personal fan of barbox play (which, if we take it away, we'd take away BigTruck's source of income!
I use to bash barbox play not too long ago as well, because I thought the play was constrained by coin-op play. Then, one year while vacationing with my folks out in Lakewood, Colorado, I went to Greenfields Sports Bar which is a local APA haunt, which I knew had only barboxes, but for the short distance, I had no choice. It was within walking distance, and I felt like having a beer or three.
Well, the night I went, they had "open table night" -- which basically meant they unlocked the side of every table and everyone got to play for free for the whole night.
This pushed my "anti-coin-op" bias aside, because now I was free to play any game I wanted -- including ones that required spotting balls, etc.
I started lining up the pints of Guinness, and went to work setting up for some 14.1 practice. Set up a break ball, and ka-blam! Rack after rack, and I was having a blast. Ended up having a 140+ run that night, and I was enjoying it the whole time. (It's nice to let your hair down on your fundamentals every once in a while, and feel free to whack 'em with reckless abandon even on the most ridiculous of breakshots that you'd never attempt on a big table.) I stumbled out of there that night, but smiling ear to ear. That was the most fun I had playing pool in a l-o-n-g time!
So, I have a "tip o' the hat" nod to bar tables for that kind of experience.
-Sean
like you said, this is just your opinion.
Lots of people were interested in watching the match.
i have no problem with pros playing on bar boxes. after all...it's what 90% of the pool playing public plays on most of the time. if you look at the UK 8 ball (or whatever you want to call that game) tournaments (i know there is a video of jayson shaw playing in one on youtube), they play on the same size table as you would find in the average bar over there. nothing wrong with that in my opinion. to me, it helps the average observer be able to relate to exactly what the guy is actually doing. that 8 pack shane ran on earl was impressive no matter what size table...especially with earl chirping in the background for most of it.
SVB has told me he doesn't think pros should be playing 8 Ball on a 9 footer. Too much room, too easy. He says bar boxes are actually tougher as you have to play tighter position, break out clusters, etc.
My opinion on 10 footers is you are just widening the gap between the pros and their audience, which is the amatuers. I much prefer watching top level players play 8 ball on the bar box and try and learn to help my own game.
My opinion on 10 footers is you are just widening the gap between the pros and their audience, which is the amatuers. I much prefer watching top level players play 8 ball on the bar box and try and learn to help my own game.
its a different game entirely but 8ball bar table I think is the universal game and the most fun, so much strategy, granted that 8 pack by shane was awesome but until then no player had put more than 2 together shane just got the break going
remember shane and biado went back to for I think 2o racks break an running on the 9 foot table at SCI so its not just table size.
bar table is ideally for the amateurs and it serves a great purpose for so many people to play and for me I think it is great watching pro players on bar table because they know one mistake and your in the chair for a LONG TIME and additionally no matter how good you are if you have no shot on the one then you are kicking or pushing not always run outs
remember shane and biado went back to for I think 2o racks break an running on the 9 foot table at SCI so its not just table size.
bar table is ideally for the amateurs and it serves a great purpose for so many people to play and for me I think it is great watching pro players on bar table because they know one mistake and your in the chair for a LONG TIME and additionally no matter how good you are if you have no shot on the one then you are kicking or pushing not always run outs
Banks
Banned
I've learned and still play primarily on barboxes. If anything, I'd say that it helped me to learn what I can do with a CB, since the pocketing was a little easier. Took me a little bit to get accustomed to a big table, but my game isn't very far off on them(or so I tell myself). Heck, I've run 3 of both 8 and 9 on big tables and barboxes, so it isn't that much of a difference. It's sort of similar to playing on a Diamond.. get the pockets down, the speed down and then it's a matter of tuning out any "intimidation" factor.
I don't avoid the big tables. They're just too costly to play as much on and a bit further away, especially since my table time is now virtually free. Plus, I prefer the easy-going bar atmosphere.