I just have to ask. Do pros think of all this or do they just play? I can't imagine what works on one table with this cue ball is going to be the same on another table. I understand there are physics to pool. Does it help or hurt to understand them. I quit trying to understand half the things I hear on this site and just play. Sure I will never be great. I think it's because I don't practice and not because of squirt, swerve, CIT etc.
CIT and Cue Ball Deflection - Gearing English
- Thread starter tashworth19191
- Start date
Regardless of how you aim and compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, a lot of "feel" is required to aim and stroke effectively.
The only way to truly master aiming with english is through significant practice allowing you to build up experience-based intuition. I think the BHE/FHE and throw compensation techniques on HAPS can be helpful in this learning process, allowing some (if not many) people to be more effective sooner and advance faster than they would otherwise.
Good luck,
Dave
Pros have excellent intuition built up from many years of successful practice and experience (with a little "natural talent" thrown into the mix). For the mere mortals that don't have pro-like intuition yet, an understanding of effects along with simple technique for compensating for them can be helpful in being effective sooner and in developing intuition faster.
On the other hand, some people just like to play and have fun and aren't really that dedicated to learning and improving. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but some people want more.
Regards,
Dave
First off thanks very much for replying Dr. Dave.... I want to get better that is why I purchased your DVD's... It is I am a dummy and want to understand it more. I am practicing all the things I see in your DVD's, some make sense and other I am still trying to grasp... In the meantime, it is hurting my game because I am thinking so much, but I do believe the better I understand it that my game will get much better. :wink:
The more I read this the more my head starts to spin. Try what I do and just hit it at the point where it goes. See if it works.
Tom,
Thank you for the response and the feedback on VEPP and HAPS. I hope more of it makes more sense and is helpful over time.
Concerning "thinking too much," I think one advantage of the BHE/FHE/BHE-FHE-combo approach is that you don't need to think very much. Just carefully aim center ball, use the appropriate pivot to place the tip for the amount of english you want, and then stroke straight. Once you get the hang of it, you wont need to think about squirt or swerve at all ... the pivot automatically corrects for everything for you for all shot distances, speeds, and amounts of english without having to think about it very much.
Again, good luck,
Dave
TOO is Touch of Outside & TOI is Touch of Inside. But...
TOI is NOT a Touch of Outside 'english'. It's hitting the cue ball a 'touch' to the inside to use the cue ball squirt to create angles.
I'll leave it to CJ to elaborate if he wishes.
Best,
Rick
TOI is using deflection to make the "pocket zone" larger.
"Touch of Outside" and "Touch of Inside" - TOO is using spin to create a bigger margin of error and TOI is using deflection to make the "pocket zone" larger.
"Touch of Outside" and "Touch of Inside" - TOO is using spin to create a bigger margin of error and TOI is using deflection to make the "pocket zone" larger.
For those that are interested, I disagree with the good Dr.
'Parallel' english works for ALL shots when done correctly. Yes the more the cue is elevated it does become a bit more difficult to gauge correctly but it works just as well when gauged correctly & it works just as well for very tight pockets as it does for large pockets... when gauged correctly.
But I'm only speaking from my 48 yrs. of experience playing with mostly parallel english so these are just my opinions.
Also like someone mentioned, these dynamic methods are more feel based than scientific formula related, at least when actually playing the game.
Best to Everyone,
Rick
Actually, I think we do agree. Parallel english can most certainly work for ALL shots when done correctly. In other words, if you use the correct cue elevation based on the speed required for a given shot at a given distance and cloth conditions, every shot can work with parallel english (i.e., the squirt will perfectly cancel the swerve). Unfortunately, for the mere mortals out there, it can be very difficult to judge the cue elevations and speeds required to make this work over a wide range of shot types and distances without countless years of practice and successful experience.
Regards,
Dave
Parallel english works for all shots indeed and it usually takes a couple of years learning to use it well. But it has it's advantages: You can go straight down onto the shot line. There is no twisting/turning of the shooting hand. Your stroke is essentially the same for all shots and your preshot routine will be identical as well. IMHO it's easier to judge the exact amount of english you put on the ball too. With super low deflecting shafts I feel parellel english it is easier to use with the long finesse shots which will be more or less exactly compensated, which are the exact shots that demands the most compensation with backhand english. For smashing the ball at warp speed less than a half table away with extreme english, it is probably easier to learn how to do it with backhand english, but after a while of using parallel english you will conquer these shots as well, besides you really shouldn't be shooting many shots like that anyway.
too much "left brain" activity could put you in a serious slump.
The more you think about this stuff the worse you will play. There isn't any great players that give much thought about the "physics of pool".....we create the physics and sometimes we can even appear (to some) to defy physics. Of course this is done through knowledge much like a magician, however once you know how the tricks are done you can easily do them yourself.
I have to really watch what I read because it can have a detrimental effect. Pool is a very creative game, and too much "left brain" activity could put you in a serious slump.
'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
The more you think about this stuff the worse you will play. There isn't any great players that give much thought about the "physics of pool".....we create the physics and sometimes we can even appear (to some) to defy physics. Of course this is done through knowledge much like a magician, however once you know how the tricks are done you can easily do them yourself.
I have to really watch what I read because it can have a detrimental effect. Pool is a very creative game, and too much "left brain" activity could put you in a serious slump.
'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
Anyone who has not had something piss them off, in just the right way, at just the right moment, and said "fook-it," is not human. Sometimes you just have a gut reaction to something so injustice that the only thing you can do is unscrew.
Lou Figueroa
fookit
Lou Figueroa
fookit
Dave,
It does not take 'countless years'. All it takes is not being afraid of it & then using it & not trying to figure out the formula mentally in one's brain. As several have said it is more 'feel' related.
I would much rather trust my subconscious mind when playing pool than anything that my brain can accomplish on the table.
Yes, if one is jacked up, it is a bit more difficult.
But...I think you are forgetting that when jacked up the cue ball is not constantly ON the table.
Obviously one wants to keep the cue as 'level' as possible AND shoot as many shots that are nearly the same as opposed to elevating the cue all different amounts. In fact I never intentionally elevate my cue to create more swerve to counter the squirt.
I'm sorry, but I just don't think you have a good understanding of how those that use it approach it.
We, or at least I, don't even attempt to calculate, 'well... I'm going to use this much offset with this much speed, so if I aim there, I'll need to create this much swerve so I better elevate the cue this much.'
I'm sorry & I don't mean to sound belittling nor condescending but it just seems like you are trying to scare people off of using it or trying it.
While you & I know that what is actually going on is a bit complex & the calculations & formulas would baffle many, that need not even come into play nor into mind. All it takes is some experience with it & to allow one's subconscious mind to learn how to do it. If a 13 year old boy can do it, I'm sure others can do it as well.
The thing is, the 13 year old boy was not afraid of it.
I'm sorry, but I don't think we do agree about the difficulty factor. It's not like going to the moon & back.
Best Wishes to You,
Rick
Straightpool,
I agree with almost everything you say here. Basically the only thing that I may not be in agreement with is the couple of years to learn & use it well.
Now, 'well' is a relative term, but... given how often one uses it & how open to it & unafraid one is of it, I think it could be used well in a much shorter period of time. The human mind is an amazing 'entity', provided that one's brain does not limit it.
Best to You,
Rick
I started playing & using english when I was 13 years old & had a table in my family garage. I took 2 years of high school physics. I took two semesters of college physics when I was 18 years old.
I hardly ever if ever thought about physics at any time that I was playing pool during those years & rarely if ever since way back then.
Pool is not that difficult to play, but it is not that easy to explain in words what is actually going on with the physics.
I never once even thought of cue ball squirt until about 6 or 7 years ago. my focus was on the spin to speed ratio & the relative swerve of the cue ball. Scientifically that was probably NOT the right thing to do, but... it worked very well for me.
Like CJ Wiley said, be careful about reading too much technical stuff & just play...& play some more.
Best Wishes to You,
Rick
Well I will say that I did learn about parallel English from this forum. I keep an eye on good players. I see a shot that I am not sure I could do and I give it a try. Like severe inside English shots. I would try and try and could never do what I saw. Until I learned about different ways to play English. Tried parallel and wham the cue ball did what I wanted.
Ever ask someone how they played a shot. "Oh I used high right". So you try high right with negative results. So I guess what you don't know can keep you from getting better. Doubt you can know to much. Unless It makes you over think everything.
Ever ask someone how they played a shot. "Oh I used high right". So you try high right with negative results. So I guess what you don't know can keep you from getting better. Doubt you can know to much. Unless It makes you over think everything.
the "aiming" is to the inside of the pocket
Yes, I never understood players that were apprehensive about hitting the inside of the cue ball (TOI)....it allows you to play with more rhythm because you know where you're hitting the cue ball, you know the speed you're using and the "aiming" is to the inside of the pocket .....then the TOI makes the object ball cut slightly, hitting the center of the pocket (when properly calibrated).
When using TOI (The Touch of Inside) make sure to always shift parallel, if you pivot the object ball will undercut virtually every time.
Yes, I never understood players that were apprehensive about hitting the inside of the cue ball (TOI)....it allows you to play with more rhythm because you know where you're hitting the cue ball, you know the speed you're using and the "aiming" is to the inside of the pocket .....then the TOI makes the object ball cut slightly, hitting the center of the pocket (when properly calibrated).
When using TOI (The Touch of Inside) make sure to always shift parallel, if you pivot the object ball will undercut virtually every time.
Well this post was exactly what I hoped it would turn out to be. It turned out to be an intelligent discussion about English. I have to say that by think so much, my game now sucks. I was playing great and wanted to improve. I have never done BHE or FHE. I always used parrallel and it worked.
I started trying things from the Perfect Aim DVD and that really screwed my game up, then I tried stuff from HAPS and VEPs DVD and that made it worse. So here is my scientific evaluation after trying to improve my game...
I break hard on the initial start and see how many balls I can run for 10 sessions (14:1 style after break).
Before I started trying to improve my game my average of the 10 sessions was 19 balls.
After watching Perfect Aim and trying the domninant eye thing, my average of the 10 sessions droped to11 balls.
After forgetting about the Perfect Aim and practicing using VEPS and HAPS technigues (mostly trying to use BHE and FHE for left and right and trying to use gearing english for close simple cuts) My average for 10 sessions is now 9 balls.
Now how do I get all of this DVD stuff out of my brain so I can go back to where I was?
I started trying things from the Perfect Aim DVD and that really screwed my game up, then I tried stuff from HAPS and VEPs DVD and that made it worse. So here is my scientific evaluation after trying to improve my game...
I break hard on the initial start and see how many balls I can run for 10 sessions (14:1 style after break).
Before I started trying to improve my game my average of the 10 sessions was 19 balls.
After watching Perfect Aim and trying the domninant eye thing, my average of the 10 sessions droped to11 balls.
After forgetting about the Perfect Aim and practicing using VEPS and HAPS technigues (mostly trying to use BHE and FHE for left and right and trying to use gearing english for close simple cuts) My average for 10 sessions is now 9 balls.
Now how do I get all of this DVD stuff out of my brain so I can go back to where I was?
Well this post was exactly what I hoped it would turn out to be. It turned out to be an intelligent discussion about English. I have to say that by think so much, my game now sucks. I was playing great and wanted to improve. I have never done BHE or FHE. I always used parrallel and it worked.
I started trying things from the Perfect Aim DVD and that really screwed my game up, then I tried stuff from HAPS and VEPs DVD and that made it worse. So here is my scientific evaluation after trying to improve my game...
I break hard on the initial start and see how many balls I can run for 10 sessions (14:1 style after break).
Before I started trying to improve my game my average of the 10 sessions was 19 balls.
After watching Perfect Aim and trying the domninant eye thing, my average of the 10 sessions droped to11 balls.
After forgetting about the Perfect Aim and practicing using VEPS and HAPS technigues (mostly trying to use BHE and FHE for left and right and trying to use gearing english for close simple cuts) My average for 10 sessions is now 9 balls.
Now how do I get all of this DVD stuff out of my brain so I can go back to where I was?
When learning and trying new things, your game will almost always drop. That is because your focus has shifted, and you are shooting consciously. In time, it will go back to subconscious shooting, and that is when you really see the improvements. Don't give up yet. Nothing in pool is a magic bullet. It all takes training.