BCA Membership

[Bella Don't Cry]

I don't mean any disrespect,,, but this thread is very annoying I own a automotive repair shop, this thread sounds like this,,,,, a vehicle comes in with a severe engine noise and I notice that the windshield is cracked. So I say, ok, start with replacing the windshield and see what that does!

Everyone is trying to figure out how to fix pool, well, before you start, is it reasonable to say that maybe the players themselves can do something?

The players need to start promoting themselves. The players need to get a fan base for themselves. The players need to draw the crowd. The players need to support the game!!!

You know what the players do???? They go tournaments, mostly on other people's money, play, and go back home! Very few are marketing themselves and the game! They need to get out there, in the pool halls on off nights and mix and mingle with all the customers! Not trying to rob a C player out of 200 for a game the C player can't refuse!

I have played in many different pool halls and many times I have worked my way in to a table with a bunch of people who can't hold the stick right, I get them started within a few minutes and there off and smashing the balls around! If I've gone to 100 people, 95 of them thanked me,,, and a few asked for lessons! I'm a good B player and to those people, I look like efren, but the point is I brought people into the game!

Can you imagine if the pros did that?? Especially the ones with a stroke,,,, make the cue run around the table and you see there eyes wide open! Before you fix the BCA and CSI and all that,,,,, fix the problem. THE POOL PLAYERS!!!
(Not all, just most) Our American poster boy and the likes are not helping, if anything, they are hurting what most of us want out of pool!

Again, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone! I applaud all endeavors trying to promote the game! But it's only gonna go as far as the players want it to.

My opinion,,,,, from what I see, don't look for much of a change, no matter what BCA and CSI and APA and whoever else there is!

Good luck to all

All preacher's needs a pedestal. Even if it's only a bed rock. :thumbup:

 

[Mark Griffin]

Bca membership

I don't mean any disrespect,,, but this thread is very annoying I own a automotive repair shop, this thread sounds like this,,,,, a vehicle comes in with a severe engine noise and I notice that the windshield is cracked. So I say, ok, start with replacing the windshield and see what that does!

Everyone is trying to figure out how to fix pool, well, before you start, is it reasonable to say that maybe the players themselves can do something?

The players need to start promoting themselves. The players need to get a fan base for themselves. The players need to draw the crowd. The players need to support the game!!!

You know what the players do???? They go tournaments, mostly on other people's money, play, and go back home! Very few are marketing themselves and the game! They need to get out there, in the pool halls on off nights and mix and mingle with all the customers! Not trying to rob a C player out of 200 for a game the C player can't refuse!

I have played in many different pool halls and many times I have worked my way in to a table with a bunch of people who can't hold the stick right, I get them started within a few minutes and there off and smashing the balls around! If I've gone to 100 people, 95 of them thanked me,,, and a few asked for lessons! I'm a good B player and to those people, I look like efren, but the point is I brought people into the game!

Can you imagine if the pros did that?? Especially the ones with a stroke,,,, make the cue run around the table and you see there eyes wide open! Before you fix the BCA and CSI and all that,,,,, fix the problem. THE POOL PLAYERS!!!
(Not all, just most) Our American poster boy and the likes are not helping, if anything, they are hurting what most of us want out of pool!

Again, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone! I applaud all endeavors trying to promote the game! But it's only gonna go as far as the players want it to.

My opinion,,,,, from what I see, don't look for much of a change, no matter what BCA and CSI and APA and whoever else there is!

Good luck to all

I agree that the 'pros' should be way more proactive. But that is not what I feel is the biggest problem facing our industry. I do agree there needs to be a mental adjustment with many players.

Mark Griffin

 

[Mark Griffin]

BCA membership

Mark,

I for one hope they realize that they cast away the rudder and we went adrift and downhill. We all know that you had the best chance of anyone to walk right past them with a new organization.....I wouldn't have wanted to do it, what a job it could be.

Perhaps being a industry leader comes with more responsibility than just housing the rules. I wish them well. I've promised my support for BEF at this point. If they contact me as ask I will support them but I want to hear what's on their minds. Perhaps they should say something. I'm sure they only want to get so involved but how involved is what I would like to know.

Wouldn't it be nice if they gave us all something to support.

Robin-
I like this post. I would rather work with existing organizations than to create new ones. Next year I'm going to try and convince the BCA to see my viewpoint on a few key issues. One has huge potential to change our landscape- which is better for all players

Keep in Mind- I'm not specifically addressing pro pool. By creating more players, more pros will be generated.

I'm pretty optimistic about the concepts- now it's all about the politics.

Mark Griffin

 

[Marc]

Bca

I understand that CSI has tried before to have qualifiers nationwide for a big tournament and that for whatever reason didn't work out as planed.
But not because of it should we stop thinking about qualifiers.
I think they are the way to go.

The invitational events are ultra right fascism,I think.

In a lot of individual sports, like golf, an average player or semi-pro cannot just pay an entry fee and play a Pro event. He needs to qualify for it.

I think a serious Pro Pool Tour should pay good enough so that the organizer can make a lot of the money back via qualifiers around the country.

Back when the IPT qualifiers, the whole world held qualifiers and players where quitting their jobs to play pool,cuz they supposedly had a change to win a Tour card to guarantee them $100.000 a year.
And they were paying $2000 entry fees!

Well, BCA or CSI may not be able to make pro tournaments that pay as well as the IPT did, but with good enough added money and a lower entry for the qualifers I think they could attract a lot of players.

Now, if a 5th place finish in the Pro events pays between $2000/$4000 in a field of 128, do not expect players to die for a spot.Because it's too hard to place that high and all you are doing if you do is break event or clear a few hundred at best.

The money should be better in Pro events,if it's not the qualifiers won't be successful.


It puzzles me that neither the CSI,BCA,Charlie Williams,and the few other organizers have not come up with a good idea for a successful Pro tour.

I think we, the players are dying to play and we would support any decent tour with decent payouts.

Whoever does the right thing will get all the players, and then we can start talking about having a true Ranking system.

 

[cleary]

I don't mean any disrespect,,, but this thread is very annoying I own a automotive repair shop, this thread sounds like this,,,,, a vehicle comes in with a severe engine noise and I notice that the windshield is cracked. So I say, ok, start with replacing the windshield and see what that does!

Everyone is trying to figure out how to fix pool, well, before you start, is it reasonable to say that maybe the players themselves can do something?

The players need to start promoting themselves. The players need to get a fan base for themselves. The players need to draw the crowd. The players need to support the game!!!

You know what the players do???? They go tournaments, mostly on other people's money, play, and go back home! Very few are marketing themselves and the game! They need to get out there, in the pool halls on off nights and mix and mingle with all the customers! Not trying to rob a C player out of 200 for a game the C player can't refuse!

I have played in many different pool halls and many times I have worked my way in to a table with a bunch of people who can't hold the stick right, I get them started within a few minutes and there off and smashing the balls around! If I've gone to 100 people, 95 of them thanked me,,, and a few asked for lessons! I'm a good B player and to those people, I look like efren, but the point is I brought people into the game!

Can you imagine if the pros did that?? Especially the ones with a stroke,,,, make the cue run around the table and you see there eyes wide open! Before you fix the BCA and CSI and all that,,,,, fix the problem. THE POOL PLAYERS!!!
(Not all, just most) Our American poster boy and the likes are not helping, if anything, they are hurting what most of us want out of pool!

Again, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone! I applaud all endeavors trying to promote the game! But it's only gonna go as far as the players want it to.

My opinion,,,,, from what I see, don't look for much of a change, no matter what BCA and CSI and APA and whoever else there is!

Good luck to all

Pool can be best described as the tail wags the dog. Everyone is so hung up on fixing pro pool but what does that do for the industry? There is basically no fan base, no money... So scrap it and find a new system. Enough with the "pro tournaments" that can barely fill field, barely fill the stands and barely break even in the end for everyone... Forget all that. You're on a treadmill wondering why you havnt went anywhere.

Pool in itself isn't doing that bad, just "pro pool". So ditch the labels and focus on "pool". Handicap tournaments that everyone can play. You want to put on a show for 200 sleeping fans in the stands or increase payouts and entries? Handicap and we all play. or just keep being something you're not and wonder why nothing works

 

[JumpinJoe]

I'll keep saying this for as long as I have to: The U.S. is not set up to handle big money events as other continents are. We don't get hundreds of thousands from our government to add to pool tournaments.

The WPA is definitely a necessary organization ---- not just in case that some day we may get into the Olympics, but because they are there to assure fairness in international events.

If you want to see just how biased and unfair things can get, then get rid of the WPA. You have no idea how many battles they fight on behalf of all the players in the world. I should know, because I served on their board of directors for 4 years.

The US has to regroup and keep it small because that's all they can afford, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The BCA board of directors changes frequently, and their flip-flopping as to whether or not they should be supporting pro pool is a reflection of those constantly changing regimes with differing viewpoints. They need to develop a long-range plan and to stop sending mixed signals.

The one thing they have been consistent in is paying the WPA dues every year in order for North American players to participate in big international events. They get nothing in return for that. Zilch, zero, nada. Sending players to participate overseas does not help them sell goods in the United States.

However, if the players can form an alliance with the BCA by working together to grow the sport, for example: Going out to shops and making appearances at their members businesses ---- we may be able to have a situation that starts to benefit all.

But concessions must be made on both sides. Maybe the BCA can help players find sponsorship situations that will benefit both sides.

One of the funniest things I've hear in awhile.
"If the players can go out to shops and make appearances at member businesses"

Lmao. They are NEVER going to try and help themselves. NEVER.

 

[Island Drive]

Handicapping obviously works, the apa has their angle and keeps on going. Create a better one, designed by one who thinks of the game first then themselves a distant second....

The BCA Name/logo has power if used wisely, starting back after WWII and before. Utilize this logo/name to signify the validity of a chosen handicap system and implement via room owners ONLY. Every room would then implement or not the free program offered by the BCA with their annual membership. This is a Win for business, mfg. and adds value and a BCA approval to support its end user, the room owner. From this....regionals then Nationals would follow, along with ACIU billiard program winners and offer up, like the BCA does for the Jr. Nationals, free room/board/meals for the National BCA Amateur Champion.

Be cool to have that feather in your cap, top amateur in the states.

 

[The Renfro]

Not too sure that the WPA has a focus (thoughts) on Europe or Asia? It may just be a focus on developing continents rather than a conscience decision of thought. If USA were to develop (into the power-house it should be) then you may see WPA taking a more invested interest? Possibly
You are right about the whole Olympic thing - Time to move on and forward :thumbup:

It was their mission statement... Even tho they have rewritten it I can recall that it clearly stated to develope and promote pool in Europe and Asia... I will check the wayback machine and see if I can still find it...

 

[Mark Griffin]

BCA membership

Marc,
I was going to highlight what was wrong with this post. But I'm on an iPad and don't know how.

Your whole thread is ONLY about pro players. That is NOT what pool is all about The qualifier method can work - but who is paying to make it happen? It takes a LOT of work and the rooms and players just don't get it.

I appreciate your concerns and understand what you are saying about entries and prize funds, but you make it sound like the IPT was a sound business plan. Kevin Trudeau lost over $11,000,000.

You guys have GOT to get a grasp on reality. Just forget 'someone' doing a pro tour. That is not the goal. The goal is to create the opportunity and the organization to cause the creation of a pro tour.

One other thing- the next person that suggest that Charlie Williams goes out and does a pro tour needs to have their head examined. (BTW, a 'good idea for a successful pro tour' is a far cry from cheap qualifiers and a large prize fund!) no promoter has ever made anything substantial from qualifiers - the overall concept of instant money needs to replaced by establishing proper criteria.

I know you are not understanding what I am saying - and that is fine. I just get frustrated when so many ideas are put forth - and they don't address the real problem.

Rant over,

mark Griffin

I understand that CSI has tried before to have qualifiers nationwide for a big tournament and that for whatever reason didn't work out as planed.
But not because of it should we stop thinking about qualifiers.
I think they are the way to go.

The invitational events are ultra right fascism,I think.

In a lot of individual sports, like golf, an average player or semi-pro cannot just pay an entry fee and play a Pro event. He needs to qualify for it.

I think a serious Pro Pool Tour should pay good enough so that the organizer can make a lot of the money back via qualifiers around the country.

Back when the IPT qualifiers, the whole world held qualifiers and players where quitting their jobs to play pool,cuz they supposedly had a change to win a Tour card to guarantee them $100.000 a year.
And they were paying $2000 entry fees!

Well, BCA or CSI may not be able to make pro tournaments that pay as well as the IPT did, but with good enough added money and a lower entry for the qualifers I think they could attract a lot of players.

Now, if a 5th place finish in the Pro events pays between $2000/$4000 in a field of 128, do not expect players to die for a spot.Because it's too hard to place that high and all you are doing if you do is break event or clear a few hundred at best.

The money should be better in Pro events,if it's not the qualifiers won't be successful.


It puzzles me that neither the CSI,BCA,Charlie Williams,and the few other organizers have not come up with a good idea for a successful Pro tour.

I think we, the players are dying to play and we would support any decent tour with decent payouts.

Whoever does the right thing will get all the players, and then we can start talking about having a true Ranking system.

 

[liakos]

All preacher's needs a pedestal. Even if it's only a bed rock. :thumbup:

Couldn't agree with you more that's why I stand on bedrock,,,, solid surface! Not like most,,,, on straw made pedestal just waiting to fall

 

[Mark Griffin]

Bca membership

JumpinJoe,

I agree. Here is another example of non realistic thinking. It takes coordination to make things happen. IF any business plan relies on the pool players and the pool rooms for the advancement- then they are doomed.

It is unfortunate but the historical behavior has shown that the players and room owners 'don't get it' - but with a total package and attainable goals, I think enough will get involved which can get the ball rolling.

I'm just hoping my health improves enough so I can a run at my latest 'idea' - if it works it will blow a lotta minds and make pool way better.

In the meantime I will listen to anything that anybody says. I might learn something. I always remember Efren - when he says he will watch beginners play. They will shoot impossible shots without knowing they are impossible. And every now and then something magical happens. I am hoping for the same from AZB.

Everybody have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year:thumbup:
Mark Griffin

One of the funniest things I've hear in awhile.
"If the players can go out to shops and make appearances at member businesses"

Lmao. They are NEVER going to try and help themselves. NEVER.

 

[liakos]

I agree that the 'pros' should be way more proactive. But that is not what I feel is the biggest problem facing our industry. I do agree there needs to be a mental adjustment with many players.

Mark Griffin

In a nutshell, the biggest problem facing the industry is the industry itself! From top to bottom, everyone is out for themselves! It's like a war ravaged country and the citizens are trying to feed themselves anyway they can! If that means they have to steal,,,, so be it, as long as they eat!

Until the entire industry understands there needs to be a a major sacrifice from top to bottom, pool will not rise!

I love this sport more than most will ever know, and I don't want to see it like this. But gone are the days of the yesterday! And the the players of today,,,,???? It all about themselves! I don't blame them,, everyone's trying to survive

Above all else, Mark, I wish you luck on your endeavor!

 

[SouthernDraw]

The players need to start promoting themselves. The players need to get a fan base for themselves. The players need to draw the crowd. The players need to support the game!!!

That is something that the BCA should be capable of conducting. I have only been to one BCA trade show, but that was as a spectator for the WPBA. But, they should be conducting seminars for their membership each year. For instance, a seminar on the newest software for running a room more efficiently. Or newest research and trends in pool, for retailers or distributors. I would assume that the central office sets an event calendar for everyone to follow. They could bring in a local advertising/public relations consultant to meet with players and help them build a plan to promote their own brand (their name). Of course, this would take bringing players on in some type of membership form, as well as having an event where it was compulsory that the players attend in order to play in the event. I highly doubt that most players would think that they need this.

 

[hang-the-9]

One of the reasons for making a post is to cause discussion. I think the BCA is a topic that should be discussed. There are many different opinions.

Most will agree that the pool industry is not very healthy.
Many will agree that the BCA is not very active in pool events.

BUT - what should be their role? Should they 'do' tournaments? Does the NFL 'do' football games?

I believe the US needs organization - (the BCA is the agent for the WPA) - I don't agree on forming NEW organizations since that has never worked. I also don't think it is all about 'points events' - and even if it was, who is going to fund them?

Look at the bigger picture and look towards the future.

I think I can 'fix' todays problems. and I think that is better than starting over.

Mark Griffin

BCA, or another organization like it, should be just like the any other major sport, set tournaments scheduled and a year end prize(s). Bonus for point leaders like the Camel tour did, Mosconi Cup selection (say 3 of the 5 spots go to the points leaders and 2 more for those that may be worthy but missed a few tour stops). Advertisements for tournaments and also for players, salaries for the pro players (say 10k a year base with whatever you get for tournaments so you can at least travel on that 10k).

 

[Paul Schofield]

It is difficult for me to imagine that the BCA would ever employ an idea that "might work". I think any new idea would be favored if it had a proven successful track record and be, at worst, revenue neutral. (I don't really know. Just some thoughts.)

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

It was their mission statement... Even tho they have rewritten it I can recall that it clearly stated to develope and promote pool in Europe and Asia... I will check the wayback machine and see if I can still find it...

IF that is the case, then they (WPA) haven't done a bad job, have they?

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Marc,
I was going to highlight what was wrong with this post. But I'm on an iPad and don't know how.

Your whole thread is ONLY about pro players. That is NOT what pool is all about The qualifier method can work - but who is paying to make it happen? It takes a LOT of work and the rooms and players just don't get it.

I appreciate your concerns and understand what you are saying about entries and prize funds, but you make it sound like the IPT was a sound business plan. Kevin Trudeau lost over $11,000,000.

You guys have GOT to get a grasp on reality. Just forget 'someone' doing a pro tour. That is not the goal. The goal is to create the opportunity and the organization to cause the creation of a pro tour.

One other thing- the next person that suggest that Charlie Williams goes out and does a pro tour needs to have their head examined. (BTW, a 'good idea for a successful pro tour' is a far cry from cheap qualifiers and a large prize fund!) no promoter has ever made anything substantial from qualifiers - the overall concept of instant money needs to replaced by establishing proper criteria.

I know you are not understanding what I am saying - and that is fine. I just get frustrated when so many ideas are put forth - and they don't address the real problem.

Rant over,

mark Griffin

Mark,
100% agree.
Focus should be POOL.
If it's good for POOL - get it done!

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

JumpinJoe,

I agree. Here is another example of non realistic thinking. It takes coordination to make things happen. IF any business plan relies on the pool players and the pool rooms for the advancement- then they are doomed.

It is unfortunate but the historical behavior has shown that the players and room owners 'don't get it' - but with a total package and attainable goals, I think enough will get involved which can get the ball rolling.

I'm just hoping my health improves enough so I can a run at my latest 'idea' - if it works it will blow a lotta minds and make pool way better.

In the meantime I will listen to anything that anybody says. I might learn something. I always remember Efren - when he says he will watch beginners play. They will shoot impossible shots without knowing they are impossible. And every now and then something magical happens. I am hoping for the same from AZB.

Everybody have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year:thumbup:
Mark Griffin

Mark,
Sometimes the 'beginner' at playing pool, sometimes is an expert in another field.
TRANSFERABLE skills are reasons why 'GOOD BUSINESS' gets done.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year guys! :thumbup:

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

In a nutshell, the biggest problem facing the industry is the industry itself! From top to bottom, everyone is out for themselves! It's like a war ravaged country and the citizens are trying to feed themselves anyway they can! If that means they have to steal,,,, so be it, as long as they eat!

Until the entire industry understands there needs to be a a major sacrifice from top to bottom, pool will not rise!

I love this sport more than most will ever know, and I don't want to see it like this. But gone are the days of the yesterday! And the the players of today,,,,???? It all about themselves! I don't blame them,, everyone's trying to survive

Above all else, Mark, I wish you luck on your endeavor!

I feel your emotion Liakos.
My love for Pool is unmeasurable too :thumbup:

 

[calcuttaman]

Pool can be best described as the tail wags the dog. Everyone is so hung up on fixing pro pool but what does that do for the industry? There is basically no fan base, no money... So scrap it and find a new system. Enough with the "pro tournaments" that can barely fill field, barely fill the stands and barely break even in the end for everyone... Forget all that. You're on a treadmill wondering why you havnt went anywhere.

Clap, clap.

Pool in itself isn't doing that bad, just "pro pool". So ditch the labels and focus on "pool". Handicap tournaments that everyone can play. You want to put on a show for 200 sleeping fans in the stands or increase payouts and entries? Handicap and we all play. or just keep being something you're not and wonder why nothing works

Well said. Wisconsin is a very good example. There is more pool tournaments and more added money in this state then anywhere. On any given weekend there is 3-6+ tournaments all over the state with anywhere from $100 -$1000+ added in EACH tournament. Pool is not dead in Wisconsin.