Solution to Supporting Pro Pool

Fast Lenny

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
Pro pool being self sustaining or being profitable with longevity is an interesting problem, I am amazed that no one has figured it out yet but maybe its just not meant to be. It seems pro pool survives basically on donations from the little sponsors who love the game and promoters too. I know the promoters either make very little, break even and possibly lose lots of money doing a pro event. I would love to see online betting support pro pool with events taking place either weekly or monthly that can be bet on but not sure how feasible it is even though its been talked about.

The money is in the leagues/amateurs which some of that money could support a pro tour but once again it would be a donation because you would be throwing lots of money at it with probably very little money coming back to you so I don't fault league owners for not taking the lions share to do so. I know it took years and a good investment to build those leagues to where they are today and its nice to see anyone make a buck legitimately with pool.

Now if pros started a league for amateurs ran by professional players and "pooled" the money to pay themselves all salaries based on rankings from each season or for working whatever city/state they live in it might be a possibility. With decent prize money for each event also there might be something there but somehow someone would get greedy and screw it all up plus there needs to be organization and egos put aside which would be a huge hurdle. I would play in a league ran by pros and promoted by them before any other and I believe most amateurs would too.

Pros are located in every state so they could go out and promote the league and win over the amateur players by showing up on league nights, bsing and giving lessons/exhibitions. They could be responsible for certain areas in each city or state and collect the monies which go to fund the tour which they get paid a salary for and also each month an event to play in to win more money. Essentially pro pool players would be employees of the league, salary plus bonuses with the tournament monies.

I could imagine amateur players playing in the finals of a national league tournament for not just prize money but for a spot on the pro tour that had a salary and you have potential to win more at each event. The pro tour would be funded by this league and pro players could make a living as I would think in the US there are 500,000 in pool leagues with something like 250-300,000 in APA alone. I envision a poster with a bunch of pool players looking sharp on it, "Pro-Am Pool League - Play with the Best" or something like that.

I am starting to ramble as it is late. Thoughts? :cool:
 
Not a bad idea.
Which rocket scientist will be the CEO
That would mean they would almost have to actually work.
Who is going to drive them to the jobs?

If they had anything to do with collecting money I advise the world not to participate.

The Wolf Guarding The Hen House

If pool ever has a chance it needs an entire new list of participants,
from management to the players.

The problem is misery breeds misery.
I have seen many a young kid hanging on the tails of professional players, only to get older and act like the piece of crap they learned from.

I am not saying everyone, just a large majority, you know the score.
 
I still think the problem is not the game, but where we play the game. Now I love a good poolroom atmosphere as much as anybody but the fact is there is just no way to get masses of spectators to go there and spectate. Every successful sporting event is fueled by spectators and admission fees first, which then brings sponsors, which then brings TV, which then brings more spectators, and on it goes. We have to promote at the very least major events in places where masses of people can get to them, in an atmosphere masses of people can enjoy. Look at what the Europeans do with Snooker, and the purses they pay the players. We could learn a lot from their model. Granted their gambling laws help instill interest, but I don't see why we couldn't do something similar within our regulations. Hell Vegas runs a line on many pro sporting events, why could pool matches not be included as well? It's the only tried and true model of successful billiards promotion there is so until we learn and adapt to something similar then pool in the USA will always be small ball.
 
Renegade_56 said:
I still think the problem is not the game, but where we play the game. Now I love a good poolroom atmosphere as much as anybody but the fact is there is just no way to get masses of spectators to go there and spectate. Every successful sporting event is fueled by spectators and admission fees first, which then brings sponsors, which then brings TV, which then brings more spectators, and on it goes. We have to promote at the very least major events in places where masses of people can get to them, in an atmosphere masses of people can enjoy. Look at what the Europeans do with Snooker, and the purses they pay the players. We could learn a lot from their model. Granted their gambling laws help instill interest, but I don't see why we couldn't do something similar within our regulations. Hell Vegas runs a line on many pro sporting events, why could pool matches not be included as well? It's the only tried and true model of successful billiards promotion there is so until we learn and adapt to something similar then pool in the USA will always be small ball.
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You're right. if it wasn't for legal gambling on snooker and a strong org. snooker would be as broke as pool. I say just put it on the pro players to get off thier asses and do something to fix or at least promote it. They don't seem to care, so why should anyone else. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
You're right. if it wasn't for legal gambling on snooker and a strong org. snooker would be as broke as pool. I say just put it on the pro players to get off thier asses and do something to fix or at least promote it. They don't seem to care, so why should anyone else. Johnnyt
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I'm sure it helps, but it's not the reason snooker is popular.

Heck, we can bet on the ponies here, but the only time horse racing gets major airtime is around the big 3 races.

NFL stadiums are generally packed (depending on the teams), and I guarantee you the majority of spectators haven't bet on the game.
 
BeiberLvr said:
I'm sure it helps, but it's not the reason snooker is popular.

Heck, we can bet on the ponies here, but the only time horse racing gets major airtime is around the big 3 races.

NFL stadiums are generally packed (depending on the teams), and I guarantee you the majority of spectators haven't bet on the game.
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I agree, but some paying to watch as well as some watching because they have bet adds up to more interest, and money.

It's a double whammy possibility as opposed to virtually nothing as is.
 
Fast Lenny said:
Now if pros started a league for amateurs ran by professional players and "pooled" the money to pay themselves all salaries based on rankings from each season or for working whatever city/state they live in it might be a possibility. With decent prize money for each event also there might be something there but somehow someone would get greedy and screw it all up plus there needs to be organization and egos put aside which would be a huge hurdle. I would play in a league ran by pros and promoted by them before any other and I believe most amateurs would too.

Pros are located in every state so they could go out and promote the league and win over the amateur players by showing up on league nights, bsing and giving lessons/exhibitions. They could be responsible for certain areas in each city or state and collect the monies which go to fund the tour which they get paid a salary for and also each month an event to play in to win more money. Essentially pro pool players would be employees of the league, salary plus bonuses with the tournament monies.

I could imagine amateur players playing in the finals of a national league tournament for not just prize money but for a spot on the pro tour that had a salary and you have potential to win more at each event. The pro tour would be funded by this league and pro players could make a living as I would think in the US there are 500,000 in pool leagues with something like 250-300,000 in APA alone. I envision a poster with a bunch of pool players looking sharp on it, "Pro-Am Pool League - Play with the Best" or something like that.

I am starting to ramble as it is late. Thoughts? :cool:
Click to expand...

Isn't this basically what Joe Tucker is doing with American Rotation League? (minus the pro tour, of course.)

The league scene is pretty saturated between APA, NAPA, TAP, VNEA, BCAPL, American Billiard Club, American Rotation (is that ABC?), in-house leagues, GPPA, etc. Besides having a chance at getting on a pro tour (which -- at a guess -- is really only feasible for maybe the top 1-2% of league players) what other benefit would there be?

I'll be honest, I wouldn't change leagues just because a pro ran it. And I think a lot of mid-to-low level league players would agree with me. They'd rather stay in the APA where they know they have a chance at a free trip to Vegas. (for the record, I play NAPA where I can qualify for nationals (no free trip) and win cash.)
 
krupa said:
Isn't this basically what Joe Tucker is doing with American Rotation League? (minus the pro tour, of course.)

The league scene is pretty saturated between APA, NAPA, TAP, VNEA, BCAPL, American Billiard Club, American Rotation (is that ABC?), in-house leagues, GPPA, etc. Besides having a chance at getting on a pro tour (which -- at a guess -- is really only feasible for maybe the top 1-2% of league players) what other benefit would there be?

I'll be honest, I wouldn't change leagues just because a pro ran it. And I think a lot of mid-to-low level league players would agree with me. They'd rather stay in the APA where they know they have a chance at a free trip to Vegas. (for the record, I play NAPA where I can qualify for nationals (no free trip) and win cash.)
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I believe you could still do many things the present leagues are doing along with using the profits from the leagues to do the pro tour. Would you switch leagues if it offered the same monies or trip to Vegas plus that chance to play with the pros or knowing that it supports pro players?
 
Fast Lenny said:
I believe you could still do many things the present leagues are doing along with using the profits from the leagues to do the pro tour. Would you switch leagues if it offered the same monies or trip to Vegas plus that chance to play with the pros or knowing that it supports pro players?
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Why would the leagues give their profits to the pro tour?
 
Renegade_56 said:
Why would the leagues give their profits to the pro tour?
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The league would be started by the pros to fund the pro tour, I wasn't meaning the present leagues which have no obligation to pro players. They would be paid salaries from the league and have duties they would be responsible for and the bonuses of it would be the events with added money that came from the league. Sounds crazy?, not really considering league operators make a living and leagues have employees who make a living. The players themselves would be the owners of the league.
 
Fast Lenny said:
I believe you could still do many things the present leagues are doing along with using the profits from the leagues to do the pro tour. Would you switch leagues if it offered the same monies or trip to Vegas plus that chance to play with the pros or knowing that it supports pro players?
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I don't know. If the only reason to switch is because of who is running it then I don't honestly see a reason to switch. But I wouldn't care if my NAPA LO suddenly said, "hey we're switching over to Johnny Archer's league".

Renegade_56 said:
Why would the leagues give their profits to the pro tour?
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He's not talking about existing leagues giving money to a pro tour but leagues run by pros putting their profits into a tour... which when I type it out seems silly. Player A gets X dollars in profit and then gives it away for a chance to win it back? Crazy talk.



I don't want to come off sounding like I don't give a shit about pros. If Turning Stone charged for admission, I'd happily pay for a ticket. I contributed to the Accu-stats Make-It-Happen all-around event and have way-too-many Accu-stats DVDs as well as TAR matches. I also go to exhibitions when they come close to me. However, inertia is a powerful force and I would need a compelling reason to switch leagues.
 
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I went to Steinway for both the Straight Pool Championship in August and the Ladies Pool Championship earlier this month, walked in in the middle of a match and got a front row seat for the TV table no problem. There were more players than spectators. You go to a ballgame or a hockey game and you are miles away in nosebleed seats. Kind of sad, isn't it.
My other favorite sport, racing, is suffering the same fate. While 40 years ago you had to get to the track early to get a seat, now a days you can go to Belmont Park on any day (other than the Belmont Stakes) and you can actually count all the people in the grandstand!!
 
what a concept! :eek:
i like it. and yes, Am Rotation came to mind.

and along that same line & a quick income fix for them, would be for them to simply become LO's. there is a LOT of money in it, and it's great exposure.

it's tiring, that so many great ideas are kicked around on AZB, while the pros don't participate here.
 
Fast Lenny said:
Now if pros started a league for amateurs ran by professional players and "pooled" the money to pay themselves all salaries based on rankings from each season or for working whatever city/state they live in it might be a possibility. With decent prize money for each event also there might be something there but somehow someone would get greedy and screw it all up plus there needs to be organization and egos put aside which would be a huge hurdle. I would play in a league ran by pros and promoted by them before any other and I believe most amateurs would too.
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I think a great example of a similar thing would be what Tony Robles has built in New York City. He has the Predator Pro/am tour. About twice a month, they have a tournament in various poolrooms around NYC and surrounding. On Saturday they have an amateur handicapped tournament and regularly filling the field and On sunday, the top 8 left in the Am tournament come back to finish as they start a "pro" tournament, just open to anyone and even races to 7 10ball. So he's basically found a way for himself and others on his level to compete. The room adds $1000+, they get that back plus more in food/drinks over 2 days as well as a free Predator cue to sell/raffle. So the room wins, the am players win, the open/pro players win, Predator wins... everyone wins.

I would say the amateurs win the most, normally over $1000 for first place and just a couple weeks ago Thomas Rice, a 15 year old, won $2400 for first place on the predator. But the amateurs make it possible to have the pro tournament.

Is this a solution? Well, possibly... If the same format, owned by the same people with the same standards branched out across the country... could get interesting. Think about that. Especially involving the amateurs. Tony keeps a close eye on the players and their playing speed/ranking. If there were a standard across the country, the amateur players would be competing for a good amount all over and would eventually lead toward funding and supporting the pros as well. Pipe dream... but possible if we worked together.
 
Fast Lenny said:
The league would be started by the pros to fund the pro tour, I wasn't meaning the present leagues which have no obligation to pro players. They would be paid salaries from the league and have duties they would be responsible for and the bonuses of it would be the events with added money that came from the league. Sounds crazy?, not really considering league operators make a living and leagues have employees who make a living. The players themselves would be the owners of the league.
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If they are running leagues when are they gonna find time for practice and tournaments? The players [amateurs] are always the owners...... Weather they realize it or not is another story.
 
SmoothStroke said:
Not a bad idea.
Which rocket scientist will be the CEO
That would mean they would almost have to actually work.
Who is going to drive them to the jobs?

If they had anything to do with collecting money I advise the world not to participate.

The Wolf Guarding The Hen House

If pool ever has a chance it needs an entire new list of participants,
from management to the players.

The problem is misery breeds misery.
I have seen many a young kid hanging on the tails of professional players, only to get older and act like the piece of crap they learned from.


I am not saying everyone, just a large majority, you know the score.
Click to expand...

Very well said! There aren't many young hustlers that don't know the treasury of quarters waiting for them at the next car wash.
 
Johnnyt said:
You're right. if it wasn't for legal gambling on snooker and a strong org. snooker would be as broke as pool. I say just put it on the pro players to get off thier asses and do something to fix or at least promote it. They don't seem to care, so why should anyone else. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

Why is this myth continually perpetuated on here?
 
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