Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen in his prime

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Gentile is not in the same league as Frost or the other guys you mentioned, Frost gives Gentile 9/7 and wins. Scott said Dennis asked for 9/7 which is crazy because Dennis plays way too good. You are right about all the other guys being at the top echelon but Justin Hall is not there in one pocket which is why the match with him and Frost never came off after Scott agreed to play him. Danny Smith is an up and comer to keep an eye out on but did beat Jeremy and I believe Darren Appleton too for the cash. Which players would you put in the box vs Frost if you had to pick them for your money?

The only two players right now would be Shane and Dennis, maybe Alex. Dennis told me he would play Scott with a ball. You're right, he doesn't want to play him even. If he beats Scott all his other action is dead. But you know about that. There are better games for Dennis right now. Maybe Bernie would like to play Dennis even since he just beat Shane. Just wondering.
 

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
The only two players right now would be Shane and Dennis, maybe Alex. Dennis told me he would play Scott with a ball. You're right, he doesn't want to play him even. If he beats Scott all his other action is dead. But you know about that. There are better games for Dennis right now. Maybe Bernie would like to play Dennis even since he just beat Shane. Just wondering.

Bernie play Scott regularly 10-6 so doubt he would play for anything big with Dennis but maybe something sociable. Bernie is not a big money player but a very solid tournament player. Great showing once again finishing top 10 twice in the past 3-4 years. I figured Dennis asked for 9-7 looking to get 9/8 which personally I think Dennis is overlooked as he probably is the favorite over many other players in one pocket. I wonder how Dennis and Darren could play a one pocket set.
 

mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
Okay Ken. Ronnie was the best combination shooter ever! He could make those off angle combos like they were straight in. Ronnie was the most creative One Pocket player ever, finding fantastic shots out of the stack that no one else could see, often having to kick into the stack to make them. He shot shots (and made them) that no one else would shoot at (or even see).

His ability to kick three rails out of traps was a wonder to behold. He could be in a dead trap and turn the game around with an amazing kick shot. Again no one else has these shots or even knows them. I saw it over and over again with my own eyes. He also kicked two long rails more successfully than anyone else ever. Kicking one rail was child's play for him.

Ronnie's ability to move multiple balls toward his pocket was also beyond belief. You thought you had him behind the pack, and he would shoot a ball off the side rail to the end rail and into a cluster of balls. All of a sudden it looked like the table was tilted toward his hole, with all the balls rolling that way. If one of those balls happened to fall in, game over!

Ronnie ran ten and out more than any living human and did it from ungodly spots. Often he had to make four or five miracle shots to continue the run.

The bigger the bet the better he played! If you both needed one ball to win, you were dead. Ronnie's shooting percentage on game ball shots was something like 99%. He just never seemed to miss anything when it was for the match - super thin cut shot, difficult bank shot, it made no difference.

His end game was superb! If you were down to the last three balls, both needing two, he had you!

The last thing Island Drive also touched on. No one was more a master of the conversation than Ronnie, both before, during and after a match. He would compliment an opponent on a fine shot, study the pack for a minute or two, kick a ball in and then run out. He would then explain he had no choice but to go for the awkward kick shot since he was trapped, winking at me on the sidelines.

Ronnie told me more than once, that he won so much money in his life by giving up the nuts and outrunning them. And he did too!

There's probably more but I touched on the highlights. It's no accident that no one wanted to play him even for twenty years with only two exceptions that I know of - Bugs and Marvin Henderson (who also beat Ronnie once and wouldn't give him a rematch).

Jay; I'm not 100% sure, but, I think Eddie Taylor beat Ronnie, EVEN, badly if I'm remembering correctly! I believe Bill Stroud mentioned it on the other site for 1 hole.

About Scott, I see Lenny made reference to the fact that, Efren runs 8's and Scott runs 18's and out! From what I've seen those players he runs all those balls on are getting HUGE spots to begin with, Like Dippy Dave, that can't run 3 balls ALL week! There's NO doubt Scott is a GREAT player, I just don't see him being able to play, 'Power One Pocket' against certain players of the past!

There's NO doubt that todays players play on tougher, tighter tables. The players of the past would have adjusted, and ran balls just as well if not better because of their 14,1 backgrounds. There's ONLY 1 player of the past 25 years that matches the defensive game of the players of the 60's and 70's, and that's Efren!

I don't see the players of today having the patience to overcome the so called, "Chicago or Philly' style game when it's laid down perfectly, the frustration level becomes too much for 98% of players to handle, and they crack!

All the 'Modern' players are looking to run 8 n out! When you NEVER get that opportunity, and I mean never! Your stroke arm becomes like spaghetti!

Obviously this is my personal observation over the past 53 years and JMHO!
 
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mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
The only two players right now would be Shane and Dennis, maybe Alex. Dennis told me he would play Scott with a ball. You're right, he doesn't want to play him even. If he beats Scott all his other action is dead. But you know about that. There are better games for Dennis right now. Maybe Bernie would like to play Dennis even since he just beat Shane. Just wondering.

Jay; That is EXACTLY why Artie always wanted 9/8 from Bugs when they played!

Artie wasn't looking for a rep! Just the CASH!
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay; That is EXACTLY why Artie always wanted 9/8 from Bugs when they played!

Artie wasn't looking for a rep! Just the CASH!

The odds of you knowing what Jay or Lenny are talking about, is absolutely zero !..You are making statements, that have NO basis in fact, any more than your many false accusations about me, and others !..You would be wise to stick to your knowledge of three cushion billiards, and stop trying to act like an expert on one pocket !..It is a well known fact, that you are too far below shortstop level, to even handicap it accurately !

Is that why you neglected to mention, that RA's few losses against Bugs, (even on Bugs home court) were in the low hundreds, while his wins, were in the thousands ?..To infer that RA could not outplay, or outsmart Bugs or Artie at one pocket, on a neutral table, is laughable...Could that be why neither of them bothered to look him up in California?

Yes, Artie was/is a very smart gambler..He was definitely after the cash !..So don't you think he knew, that if he could beat RA anywhere outside of Chicago, (even getting weight)..he could have won half the state of California ?...Jay Helfert would have been reduced to selling apples on the street corner, instead of being one of the smartest handicappers, in all of pool !..You need to inject some reality into your glowing tales, about "Bensinger superiority"...You are exposing how much you 'really' don't know about pool !
 
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mr3cushion

Regestered User
Silver Member
The odds of you knowing what Jay is talking about, are absolutely zero !..You are making statements, that have NO basis in fact, any more than your many false accusations about me, or others !..You would be wise to stick to your knowledge of three cushion billiards, and stop trying to be an expert on one pocket !..It is a well known fact, that you are too far below shortstop level, to even handicap it accurately !

Is that why you neglected to mention, that RA's few losses against Bugs, (even on Bug's home court) were in the low hundreds, while his wins, were in the thousands ?..To infer that of RA not outplay or outsmart Bugs or Artie on a neutral table, are laughable...Could that be why neither of them bothered to look him up elsewhere ?

Yes, Artie was a very smart gambler..He was definitely after the cash !..So don't you think he knew, that if he could beat RA anywhere outside of Chicago, (even getting weight)..he could have won half the state of California ?...Jay Helfert would have been reduced to selling apples on the street corner, instead of being one of the smartest handicappers, in all of pool !..You need to inject some reality into your glowing tales, about "Bensinger superiority"...You are exposing how much you 'really' don't know about pool !

I definitely know, YOU, couldn't of carried Bugs or Arties case playing 1 hole! And EVERYONE KNOWS THAT TO BE A FACT! West coast or other wise, Guys like Nick Varner whom Artie robbed would stick you in the toilet playing one pocket!

You were known throughout your playing days as a very good action, meaning a 'thru ticket' a 'go off!' That's the reason you were really in action all the time, you were #1 on the road players 'tip sheet!' for a score!

Once again you have painted yourself into a corner, NOT even knowing when and where Ronnie and Bugs played, or the correct amount! Is it just really you like to see your own words in type, or do you have something substantial or valid and truthful to bring to the table, because so far, you're running a distant second!

Remember; The LAST MAN standing, ALWAYS! ;)
 

punter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The odds of you knowing what Jay or Lenny are talking about, is absolutely zero !..You are making statements, that have NO basis in fact, any more than your many false accusations about me, and others !..You would be wise to stick to your knowledge of three cushion billiards, and stop trying to act like an expert on one pocket !..It is a well known fact, that you are too far below shortstop level, to even handicap it accurately !

Is that why you neglected to mention, that RA's few losses against Bugs, (even on Bugs home court) were in the low hundreds, while his wins, were in the thousands ?..To infer that RA could not outplay, or outsmart Bugs or Artie at one pocket, on a neutral table, is laughable...Could that be why neither of them bothered to look him up in California?

Yes, Artie was/is a very smart gambler..He was definitely after the cash !..So don't you think he knew, that if he could beat RA anywhere outside of Chicago, (even getting weight)..he could have won half the state of California ?...Jay Helfert would have been reduced to selling apples on the street corner, instead of being one of the smartest handicappers, in all of pool !..You need to inject some reality into your glowing tales, about "Bensinger superiority"...You are exposing how much you 'really' don't know about pool !

Once again you squander an opportunity to contribute to a good thread by avoiding the question asked and instead sowing discord. Not surprised.

Many people that have been on these forums awhile know about this but for those that don't I would like to mention that on OP.org there is a very fine collection of interviews with former greats. Reading this thread, I ended up over there rereading the interview with Eddie Taylor. Here's a link for those interested:

http://www.onepocket.org/EddieTaylorInterview.htm

http://www.onepocket.org/EddieTaylorPart2.htm
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I definitely know, YOU, couldn't of carried Bugs or Arties case playing 1 hole! And EVERYONE KNOWS THAT TO BE A FACT! West coast or other wise, Guys like Nick Varner whom Artie robbed would stick you in the toilet playing one pocket!..

I am not going to lower myself, into another verbal confrontation with you !..EVERYONE KNOWS YOUR LEVEL OF COMPETENCE AT THAT !.. I was just pointing out your telling Jay and Lenny how wrong they were, and rather than admit you were out of line again, you jumped on your favorite pastime, attacking my credibility.. Fortunately, coming from YOU, it means less than nothing !

I never claimed to be the greatest, but even though many (like Cooney, RA, Buddy Hall, and Stroud) have told you how I played, you prefer to call them all liars, and tell them, (and me) how bad I was at it !...You appear to be "embarrass-proof", but it all falls in line with what I said...You don't know enough about one pocket, to even participate in a discussion about it !

So I shall bid you adieu again !...You are not, nor never have been, worth a minute of my time ! (or anyone else's, for that matter) :rolleyes:
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jay; Ronnie and Bugs played in Detroit, Bugs beat Ronnie twice there! NO gaff table! Besides, you NEVER really knew what was going on when Ronnie played! ;)

I know what you mean there Billy and I concede that point to you. More than once Ronnie told me NOT to bet on a match. :cool:
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Jay; I'm not 100% sure, but, I think Eddie Taylor beat Ronnie, EVEN, badly if I'm remembering correctly! I believe Bill Stroud mentioned it on the other site for 1 hole.

About Scott, I see Lenny made reference to the fact that, Efren runs 8's and Scott runs 18's and out! From what I've seen those players he runs all those balls on are getting HUGE spots to begin with, Like Dippy Dave, that can't run 3 balls ALL week! There's NO doubt Scott is a GREAT player, I just don't see him being able to play, 'Power One Pocket' against certain players of the past!

There's NO doubt that todays players play on tougher, tighter tables. The players of the past would have adjusted, and ran balls just as well if not better because of their 14,1 backgrounds. There's ONLY 1 player of the past 25 years that matches the defensive game of the players of the 60's and 70's, and that's Efren!

I don't see the players of today having the patience to overcome the so called, "Chicago or Philly' style game when it's laid down perfectly, the frustration level becomes too much for 98% of players to handle, and they crack!

All the 'Modern' players are looking to run 8 n out! When you NEVER get that opportunity, and I mean never! Your stroke arm becomes like spaghetti!

Obviously this is my personal observation over the past 53 years and JMHO!

Ronnie did lose to Taylor and maybe a few others when he was moving up the food chain in the early 60's. Clem robbed Ronnie at Cochran's around 1961 or 62. A few years later, when he saw Ronnie play at JC, he told Squirrel that the kid (Ronnie) learned how to play this game. :wink:
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Once again you squander an opportunity to contribute to a good thread by avoiding the question asked and instead sowing discord. Not surprised.

What in the hell are you talking about ???...What question did I avoid ???... The only one avoiding anything is your buddy !...I have said many times, Eddie Taylor has always been one of my heroes, and one of my favorite people !...Why did you post those interviews with him ???.. What was your point ???. What are YOU trying to stir up ???...Were you just afraid Mr. 3?? was getting the worst of it again ???

Talk about 'sowing discord', although I'm really NOT surprised at that !..Why don't you guy's grow up ?
...On the off chance you may have been referring to the time Eddie beat RA,..I was there ! Eddie was there with Stroud, and he had him off the sauce !...I would have emptied out betting on Eddie that night..Both ET, and RA were heavy drinkers, and a few nights later, I may have picked RA to win...Please don't comment, on things you know NOTHING about... Your buddy, Mr. 3-IQ, does that enough for both of you ! :banghead:

SJD
 
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Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
What in the hell are you talking about ???...What question did I avoid ???... The only one avoiding anything is your buddy !...I have said many times, Eddie Taylor has always been one of my heroes, and one of my favorite people !...Why did you post those interviews with him ???.. What was your point ???. What are YOU trying to stir up ???...Were you just afraid Mr. 3?? was getting the worst of it again ???

Talk about 'sowing discord', although I'm really NOT surprised at that !..Why don't you guy's grow up ?
...On the off chance you may have been referring to the time Eddie beat RA,..I was there ! Eddie was there with Stroud, and he had him off the sauce !...I would have emptied out betting on Eddie that night..Both ET, and RA were heavy drinkers, and a few nights later, I may have picked RA to win...Please don't comment, on things you know NOTHING about... Your buddy, Mr. 3-IQ, does that enough for both of you ! :banghead:

SJD

Dick, how would you have placed Scott and Ronnie in their primes?
 

punter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dick, how would you have placed Scott and Ronnie in their primes?

Yeah, that would be the question I was talking about, SJD. You know, the title of the thread.

And BTW, I mentioned Eddie Taylor, because some earlier posts in the thread led me to reread this OP.org interview. Many times they talk about playing their contemporaries (novel, idea, right SJD?). Eddie briefly mentions RA, also talks about Bugs. I was just pointing out to others that may not know about the existence of these interviews. Everything is not about you SJD.
 
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SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, that would be the question I was talking about, SJD. You know, the title of the thread....I was just pointing out to others that may not know about the existence of these interviews. Everything is not about you SJD.

Bunter...We are so fortunate, to have your astute [sic] guidance and knowledge on the forum !.. But please, try and stay 'remotely' on topic !..Its YOU, who seem to want to make 'everything' about me !..Its your obsession, not mine...:sorry:
 
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SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dick, how would you have placed Scott and Ronnie in their primes?

You know Lenny, no one can really answer that question !..Its the old Marciano vs Ali thing !..It will always be hypothetical, with no way of ever proving anything !.. There is obviously NO way you can bet on it!..Having played both of them many times, (in and out of their primes) I can only offer an opinion !..I think in a straight up, square 1P game, prime to prime..I would have to give a VERY slight edge to RA ! (by the way, on a side note, I think RA would have handled Efren, in gambling matches, much easier than Scott did !)

Both have/had great ball running skills..Scott may be a very slight favorite in that department...But, I would give RA the edge in imagination, shot selection and moving ! (plus the usual edge in sharking :eek:)..It would be a very interesting match to sweat..But I would not get up out of the 'electric chair' to bet on it, EITHER WAY ! (unless of course I was drunk :p)

SJD

PS..Lenny, why don't you check with 'Bunter', and Mr. 3-IQ ?..They seem to know all about stuff like that ?..;)
 
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punter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bunter...We are so fortunate, to have your astute [sic] guidance and knowledge on the forum !.. But please, try and stay 'remotely' on topic !..Its YOU, who seem to want to make 'everything' about me !..Its your obsession, not mine...:sorry:

I know you got caught looking like an imbecile there SJD, but you don't have to take it out on me. What question? LOL. I know you don't bother to read threads before commenting. You look for Mr3C, or CJ, and you run to see what they have said, so you can spill out some more useless ranting. At least you finally took a stab at answering the question.
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know you got caught looking like an imbecile there SJD, but you don't have to take it out on me. What question? LOL. I know you don't bother to read threads before commenting. You look for Mr3C, or CJ, and you run to see what they have said, so you can spill out some more useless ranting. At least you finally took a stab at answering the question.

Please examine your post Bunter !..Once again, you are grasping at straws..I always read a thread before responding..I will admit, I do sometimes just quickly scan CJ, Mr.3IQ, and your threads..Only because they are so repetitious, non-sensicle and boring, that they give me a migraine ! (sorry, not my fault :sorry:)

SJD--<--Is really impressed, that someone like you, can post so much, and say so little !..You have made it an art form ! (Pulitzer maybe ?)

PS..Breakfast time at the Deli...Pancakes and YJ syrup ...Yum, yum ! :D
 
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nineballsafety8

6ft 5" 285, hits 'em hard
Silver Member
SJD... just a quick question, as I unfortunately do not know what level you played at in your younger days, and please understand that I mean this with the utmost respect... I am just trying to get the facts, and am curious about your speed (back then).

When you played both Scott and Ronnie, what was a typical game that you played with them? Was it even up, or was there weight involved, and if so how much?
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SJD... just a quick question, as I unfortunately do not know what level you played at in your younger days, and please understand that I mean this with the utmost respect... I am just trying to get the facts, and am curious about your speed (back then).

When you played both Scott and Ronnie, what was a typical game that you played with them? Was it even up, or was there weight involved, and if so how much?

9ball safety...I appreciate your sensible question, and I will answer it as best I can....RA and I played quite regularly, for over 50 years, and always for pretty decent $$$ !...When we first started playing, he was about 21, and I was 25.. He was by far the better 1P player, and he could easily give me 2 or 3 balls..I had a little the best of it, playing him 9 ball or golf in those early years, so we did not always play only 1P...As you know, he was very active in the pool world, wheras I always had a job or a business, and did not often stray far from home.

As I fell in love with, and began to learn one pocket, (mostly from him) the game changed, to where I progressed from getting 9/7, to 10/8 to 8/7, and eventually our regular game became 9/8...We exchanged a lot of $$$$, in those years..We also became drinking buddies, and I am sure he wound up ahead of me, but not the billion dollars he always liked to claim ! ;)...When we reached our early 60's, his game deteriorated much faster than mine, (due to his health) and I became the favorite, playing even, and I extracted a little revenge !

As for Scott, I was already in my mid-60's when he first came to Phoenix. (Scott is about 35 yrs. my junior) For a while, I could hold my own with him, but he improved rapidly, and eventually, he got to where he could give me 4-5 balls, and usually win...Except for playing golf, or 1P on a 6 X 12 snooker table..I still had a little the best of that, 'til I just got too old to compete !

Thats pretty much the whole story..Except for a 20 yr. hiatus from pool, that I took from about age 40 to 60...Thanks for your interest !

SJD
 
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nineballsafety8

6ft 5" 285, hits 'em hard
Silver Member
9ball safety...I appreciate your sensible question, and I will answer it as best I can....RA and I played quite regularly, for over 50 years...When we first started playing, he was about 21, and I was 25.. He was by far the better 1P player, and he could easily give me 2 or 3 balls..I had a little the best of it, playing him 9 ball or golf in those early years, so we did not always play only 1P. He was very active in the pool world, wheras I always had a job or a business, and did not often stray far from home.

As I fell in love with, and began to learn one pocket, (mostly from him) the game changed, to where I progressed from getting 9/7, to 10/8 to 8/7, and eventually our regular game became 9/8...We exchanged a lot of $$$$, in those years..We also became drinking buddies, and I am sure he wound up ahead of me, but not the billion dollars he always liked to claim ! ;)...When we reached our early 60's, his game deteriorated much faster than mine, (due to his health) and I became the favorite, playing even, and I extracted a little revenge !

As for Scott, I was already in my mid-60's when he first came to Phoenix. (Scott is about 35 yrs. my junior) For a while, I could hold my own with him, but he improved rapidly, and eventually, he got to where he could give me 4-5 balls, and usually win... Except playing 1P on a 6 X 12 snooker table..I still had the best of that, 'til I just got too old to compete !

Thats pretty much the whole story..Except for a 20 yr. hiatus from pool, that I took from about age 40 to 60...Thanks for your interest !

SJD


Thank you sir! It seems you are one of very few that bridged that gap between generations of players. It is sad that there are so few of you guys left.
 
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