Or...you put a Butt Extension on Like Earl & Shane.:wink:
The slip stroke; not its definition, but its purpose
- Thread starter BillPorter
- Start date
Or...you put a Butt Extension on Like Earl & Shane.:wink:
Earl's been using that javelin for a few years now. Not once have I seen him using anything remotely like a slip stroke with it. If his cue has that benefit, the fact it is lost on him.
I'm glad you noticed the mechanics. That's obvious and again, you state what we all see and then explain it.:grin: Closer to level and moving forward through the cue ball. Not down and ride off of the top of the cue ball. Notice that...a different angle of attack on certain shots.
I use the slip stroke to relax my hand on many strokes. Whether you employ a stroke slip or slip stroke, they help to eliminate stroking errors. With a relaxed, yet ready grip, you can play longer with less fatigue, which is more than just a bandaid. When your runs get up there in straight pool, your mind and body work against you.
Willie's style is right for him. If it works for some, I don't knock it, I try to understand it.
Best,
Mike
Hadn't had the time to keep up to date on this thread (shoveling my butt out after last night's storm), but I think Neil nails it here.
Forget about elbow rise or drop for the moment. If we boil it down to just a pendulum stroke (i.e. moving only at the elbow), when the tip of the pendulum (the grip hand) is forward of the pendulum's perihelion, the arc of the pendulum "says" that the grip hand is higher. As the back swing begins, the grip hand follows the arc backwards, sinking downwards towards the pendulum's perihelion, and thus the butt of the cue is sinking as well. Sinking of the butt = raising of the tip.
The idea of the slip stroke was to have the grip hand never pass the pendulum's perihelion (i.e. never pass perpendicularity to the floor, where it is closest to the floor). The slip of the grip hand backwards on the handle of the cue and regripping further back, "adds the missing length" to the cue that wouldn't have otherwise been there. Thus, as the forward stroke begins, the cue in front of the grip hand is "longer," therefore striking the cue ball.
As Patrick Johnson mentions (and fully agree), this is a BandAid[TM] to the stroke. I found that out when I tried to take my slip stroke to a snooker table decades ago, and found just how inaccurate I was, even though I was playing the best pool of my life at the time. (This in the mid-1980s, when I was in the Navy.) I couldn't sink a straight-in, center-spotted blue with the cue ball behind balk, more than maybe 4 out of 10 times. A snooker player who was an inspiration to me at the time told me to get rid of that slip stroke, because that time when I was sliding my hand backwards, I had lost complete control of the cue. He told me to learn how to cue properly, instead of following the herd in adopting the latest BandAids to patch a broken stroke. In other words, learn *why* my pull-back beyond perihelion is not straight, and fix it. He helped me with that, and I'm indepted to this player's advice, which took hold much later.
Pool players like to think the slip stroke does the opposite -- i.e. prevent the cue from "inheriting" flaws from the arm. It does that on the release, yes, but when you're regripping, it has a tendency to add a small amount of "jar" and yaw to the cue.
Yes, it's pretty when you watch someone who's accomplished at it. But you won't see any modern pros using that technique these days -- not a single champion or even contender -- because the norm is that the equipment is getting tighter, not looser. It's just progress.
-Sean
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Mike, I don't know what pleasure it gives you, but it must give you some pleasure to constantly try and insult me, then take what I have stated and twist it into something that I haven't stated to try and make some point of yours.
Hi Mike,
I use to throw the cue through the ball way back when. I had seen the old guy from whom I sort of stole my came do it. So...I experimented with it & did it for a time but got away from it until just a short time ago when I started using TOI.
With TOI my connection to the cue gravitated to a more firm connection & just as you say & especially since I was not accustomed to the firmer grip, I started to feel some tightness in my forearm.
So...I started 'throwing' the cue through the ball on some of the shorter, easier shots just to give my arm a breather so to speak. I then started doing it on some of the longer straight in shots.
I'm much like you. I saw the success that the old guy was having so... I learned to do it, &...it works well.
Best,
Rick
I don't use it much when I play rotation games. The power strokes call for a little tighter grip. It depends on the game you're playing. Straight pool, snooker and one pocket have different stroke requirements. Rotation games have a different mindset and level of intensity.
Like I said, I don't knock what works for each player. Some would have the cookie cutter stroke and post what works for them as the only way. The greats, past and present don't do the things that we say are necessary in these threads and that's what students of the game should strive to learn.
One step up from the pool forums are the baseball forums. They're further along in dissecting what it takes for a good stroke for each individual, but not quite as far as the golf and tennis forums. We lag behind and don't look at evidence in front of us. What are the Pinoys doing that makes them so formidable? No discussion is possible till we start to learn to understand there is more out there than the old knowledge and we can learn new things. The status quo is a comfortable place, sometimes.
Best,
Mike
World of difference between executing a stroke slip and a slip stroke. The first is ridiculously easy to do, and happens after the stroke has already been delivered. The later, well, you better have a few years practice with it.
Don Feeney showed them to me in the 70's and they're still used on occasion.
Best,
Mike
I've been playing pool around 55 yrs now and I've played with a slip stroke from early on. It's my nature stroke I've never worked on it, it just happens. I don't play with a slip stroke all the time but, when I'm pocking the balls well, making the tough shots, playing good position, I'm slipping. Long shots, short shots, soft shots, firm shots, lots of english, no english, break shots, I slip on all of them. It's not something I think about.
On Mosconi, I had the pleasure on refereeing a 14.1 exhibition match by Mosconi at my local pool hall in the early 60's. He came in that morning to take a few shots on the exhibition table, I was not only able to watch him warm up but also got to talk some with him, nice man. That day, morning and evening, Willie was not using a slip stroke. That's the only time I seen him play in person and the only time I can comment on.
Dale
If it's your stroke, use it. I do, too, on occasion. It's great for the fast tables.
Your observations on the exhibition make me think Willie's game may have changed over the years. Not sure, but he may have gravitated to a different technique for reasons I can only guess. Nobody on this forum is going to change their mind about it, anyway. :grin-square:
The only time I met Willie wasn't very much fun, so I walked away. I didn't have enough time to ask him anything about the game. He was too busy yelling at me and my friends about something and we're not sure to this day what it was all about.
Best,
Mike
Corn, I'd put so much pressure on that old stroke of yours you'd slip and fall down
I spent a lot of time around "Cornbread Red" at THE RACK in Detroit back in the mid 80s. The two things that I really studied was his slip stoke and Bugs' banking, both were impressive.
"Red" would not play me 9-Ball and I wouldn't play him one-pocket, so we weren't in a competitive relationship. He was a funny ole dude, chewing that tobacco and spittin after making a snide remark.
One day I was ribbing him about why he wouldn't play me any rotations games and said "I know why you can't beat me, CornBread, I'd put so much pressure on that old stroke of yours you'd slip and fall down". LoL He laughed, spit, then gave me that "I'd spank your butt if you mess with me" look. What a character!!!
There is an advantage in the slip stroke as far as how the cue accelerates through the ball. I will attempt to explain this at some point, however, it will probably bring about strong emotions in some "forummers" so I'll wait until I have more time and energy.
It's 75 degrees here in Texas today, so I'm going to play some "outside games" until my tournament tonight at VOLCANOES (in Hurst Tx).
I spent a lot of time around "Cornbread Red" at THE RACK in Detroit back in the mid 80s. The two things that I really studied was his slip stoke and Bugs' banking, both were impressive.
"Red" would not play me 9-Ball and I wouldn't play him one-pocket, so we weren't in a competitive relationship. He was a funny ole dude, chewing that tobacco and spittin after making a snide remark.
One day I was ribbing him about why he wouldn't play me any rotations games and said "I know why you can't beat me, CornBread, I'd put so much pressure on that old stroke of yours you'd slip and fall down". LoL He laughed, spit, then gave me that "I'd spank your butt if you mess with me" look. What a character!!!
There is an advantage in the slip stroke as far as how the cue accelerates through the ball. I will attempt to explain this at some point, however, it will probably bring about strong emotions in some "forummers" so I'll wait until I have more time and energy.
It's 75 degrees here in Texas today, so I'm going to play some "outside games" until my tournament tonight at VOLCANOES (in Hurst Tx).
Geez, it's -1º here in sunny upstate NY, with a wind chill of -20º. The only outside games we're playing up here are, "Hey, let's see if the snowblower will start today."
Enjoy yourself, CJ. Looking forward to your "theories" about the slip stroke. Make sure to include lots of charts of potential and kinetic energy you grabbed off Google images. And don't forget a pic of Hank Haney, and maybe a broad sword or two. PM me if the Internet runs out of fortune cookie memes, I have a few I've been saving for a special time and place.
JK there, CJ. I really am interested in what you have to say about it.
I almost forgot "THE SLIP STROKE IS THE TEACHER"
I like that, you have a good sense of humor. Ironically I joke a lot about stuff that is taken seriously on here, it's nice to get it back in return.
Oh, I almost forgot "THE SLIP STROKE IS THE TEACHER"
Geez, it's -1º here in sunny upstate NY, with a wind chill of -20º. The only outside games we're playing up here are, "Hey, let's see if the snowblower will start today."
Enjoy yourself, CJ. Looking forward to your "theories" about the slip stroke. Make sure to include lots of charts of potential and kinetic energy you grabbed off Google images. And don't forget a pic of Hank Haney, and maybe a broad sword or two. PM me if the Internet runs out of fortune cookie memes, I have a few I've been saving for a special time and place.
JK there, CJ. I really am interested in what you have to say about it.
I like that, you have a good sense of humor. Ironically I joke a lot about stuff that is taken seriously on here, it's nice to get it back in return.
Oh, I almost forgot "THE SLIP STROKE IS THE TEACHER"
When I ran with Bobby Cotton, he had nothing, but good things to say about Red. One of his mentors. He showed him a few things that he later showed me. Not all, but some. :wink:
GL, with the inside heat at Volcanoes. I don't want to hear about the outside heat!!! :grin:
Best,
Mike
I'd also like a discussion on the acceleration using the principle of the slip stroke. Getting a little more weight behind the hit, however subtle, is interesting. After all, it's a magical stroke to us amateurs.
Best,
Mike
I agree a better address position and/or a straighter stroke are preferable, but if it's the Band-Aid you happen to need for your stroke I guess it adds something - it probably also costs something. I'd rather not need it.
pj
chgo
Me too, if it includes more than assertions and motivational posters - you know, like at least a hypothesis for why it would be better for acceleration (or anything) than simply starting with your grip in the final position.
pj
chgo
Two things come to mind. Can there be more acceleration by adding a portion of the cue stick's weight to the stroke, therefore more power, and/or lessening the physical distance of the backswing and increasing the chance for a truer, more efficient forward movement?
Best,
Mike