The slip stroke; not its definition, but its purpose

If the grip is perpendicular when addressing the cue ball, the cue will be at maximum speed at impact.

Most old straight poolers had a forward grip, which means the cue has passed perpendicular and therefore is decelerating at impact.

In an earlier thread on this subject I think I came up with a mathematical explanation for it.

This photo shows my cue was decelerating before impact:

pool3.jpg


It looks like I hit the cue ball about 30msec late.

My theory about why (some say) you can get more action with a slip stroke is that it changes your stroke timing. The stick is getting a few inches head start.

Bob Jewitt and Dr. Dave posted this video showing cue speed for a "medium" pendulum stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfzUvIzKJR4#t=90

Near the end of the stroke the cue is traveling about 5.5 mph.

Convert this to inches per msec:

5.5 mi x 5280 ft x 1 hr x 1 min x 1 sec x 12 in
------- -------- ----- ------ ------ ------
1 hr 1 mi 60 min 60 sec 1000msec 1 ft

= 0.0968 inches per msec.

I contacted the cue ball 30 msec late, so 0.0968 x 30 = 2.9 inches.

Bingo, with a 2.9" slip stroke I would have contacted the cue ball at max cue speed, compensating for my decelerating cue.


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4992603&postcount=46
 
JohnnyP said:
Bingo, with a 2.9" slip stroke I would have contacted the cue ball at max cue speed, compensating for my decelerating cue.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4992603&postcount=46
Click to expand...

I'm thinking this may apply in my case, where I seemed to get more spin on the cue ball with about a 3 inch slip stroke. Cue speed at impact may have been slightly higher and my follow through a couple of inches longer.

Great post, by the way. Nice to see some real data!:)
 
arnaldo said:
This is quite a brilliant insight SP. One I've never seen expressed anywhere else. Very admirable reasoning. Kudos to you, sir. I'm going to give this gem a good trial on the practice table and see if my experience is similar to yours and worth incorporating for whatever incremental stroke/aim benefits may accrue.

On another note for other interested AZBers regarding Mosconi's stroke, go to the 21:26 point here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JCdJ08_M3Y

(and actually elsewhere during this televised match) no slip stroke in evidence (granted he's a bit jacked up and also may have abandoned his more youthful stroke at this point in his career) -- in any case, no slip stroke and poor Willie grossly misses the shot . . . IMO entirely due to the ref's idiotic compulsion to point his finger at each designated OB for the naïve in-person and home audience *while* the hapless player is aiming each shot.

Arnaldo
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Arnaldo:

Actually, that was one of the points I made in my 2009 tutorial on the slip stroke:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2164385#post2164385

-Sean
 
By starting at address with the hand forward on the grip and then slipping it back to the correct position mid-stroke, you arrive back at the CB slightly before you think you will. The presence of the CB is often subconsciously viewed as an obstacle to be avoided. We are conditioned not to collide with things in our path. By striking the ball by "surprise" earlier in the stroke, you end up accelerating throughout the entire stroking distance, instead of proceeding through the finish with the same velocity.

Is this "accelerating through the ball"? Of course not, that's been shown to be impossible, but you are accelerating into the ball the entire way. Not only can this give you a bit more power, but it can lead to greater consistency since you've eliminated the variable of changing rates of acceleration.
Click to expand...
I agree with the conclusion, but I think it's as much about the physics as the psychology of it. As JoeyinCali and JohnnyP said, the bottom of the stroke arc is where acceleration reaches its peak, and it's also where the speed is most predictable and controlled. It's also where the cue tip travels for the farthest distance in a near-straight and near-horizontal line. All this adds up to the bottom of the arc being the most predictable part of the stroke.

I think the slip stroke is an inferior way to accomplish that, but it may have other advantages, like keeping the stroke straighter, as Lou says.

pj
chgo
 
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Question: Has anyone seen or know of a player that uses/used the slip-stroke that DIDN'T have his chin a good 4 inches (or more) above the shaft?
 
JohnnyP said:
If the grip is perpendicular when addressing the cue ball, the cue will be at maximum speed at impact.

Most old straight poolers had a forward grip, which means the cue has passed perpendicular and therefore is decelerating at impact.

In an earlier thread on this subject I think I came up with a mathematical explanation for it.

This photo shows my cue was decelerating before impact:

pool3.jpg


It looks like I hit the cue ball about 30msec late.

My theory about why (some say) you can get more action with a slip stroke is that it changes your stroke timing. The stick is getting a few inches head start.

Bob Jewitt and Dr. Dave posted this video showing cue speed for a "medium" pendulum stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfzUvIzKJR4#t=90

Near the end of the stroke the cue is traveling about 5.5 mph.

Convert this to inches per msec:

5.5 mi x 5280 ft x 1 hr x 1 min x 1 sec x 12 in
------- -------- ----- ------ ------ ------
1 hr 1 mi 60 min 60 sec 1000msec 1 ft

= 0.0968 inches per msec.

I contacted the cue ball 30 msec late, so 0.0968 x 30 = 2.9 inches.

Bingo, with a 2.9" slip stroke I would have contacted the cue ball at max cue speed, compensating for my decelerating cue.


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4992603&postcount=46
Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks for that. It seems to validate at least a few points that have been addressed already. There are other interesting things about the slip stroke, some good, some maybe not so.

Here's another composite of Willie in action. The capture on the left was taken exactly at address. Note how far forward his back hand is, and the acute angle formed by his forearm and upper arm. The second capture (on the right) was taken exactly at contact. However you want to define this stroke, Willie's hand ended up several inches rearward of its position at address, and this all occurred during the actual backstroke. What angle is his at forearm now? Basically 90º at contact.

Now look at the computer drawn horizontal lines:

- The top line is only an alignment line I drew through the points of the corner pockets to make sure the photos are vertically identical.

- The bottom line shows how much the butt of the cue has dropped between address and contact times - a good 2"

- The line second from the bottom shows how much his hand dropped during the stroke

- The line through the CB shows that the cue tip raised about 1/2 a tip, turning what looked like a soft stun shot at address into a soft follow shot at actual contact.

The cue is also more level at contact. That's usually a good thing. But contacting the CB higher than he expected? Well, maybe it was where he expected, learned subconsciously over the decades by hitting millions of balls. But for the uninitiated player trying to add something special to his game, well, this unavoidable problem with the slip stroke could spell disaster. One of the reasons I abandoned working on the slip stroke was that I seemed to have a harder time drawing the ball. Now I know why.

These screen captured were taken from a well-known challenge match between Mosconi and Fats, starting at 7:35. There are clear views of several other "grip adjustments" that Willie made during the course of his actual back stroke. You call them what you want, but this ain't a classic pendulum stroke by any stretch of the imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6B1XncJoD0

Enjoy. ;)
 

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Sloppy Pockets said:
Here's another composite of Willie in action. The capture on the left was taken exactly at address. Note how far forward his back hand is, and the acute angle formed by his forearm and upper arm. The second capture (on the right) was taken exactly at contact. However you want to define this stroke, Willie's hand ended up several inches rearward of its position at address, and this all occurred during the actual backstroke. What angle is his at forearm now? Basically 90º at contact.

Now look at the computer drawn horizontal lines:

- The top line is only an alignment line I drew through the points of the corner pockets to make sure the photos are vertically identical.

- The bottom line shows how much the butt of the cue has dropped between address and contact times - a good 2"

- The line second from the bottom shows how much his hand dropped during the stroke

- The line through the CB shows that the cue tip raised about 1/2 a tip, turning what looked like a soft stun shot at address into a soft follow shot at actual contact.

The cue is also more level at contact. That's usually a good thing. But contacting the CB higher than he expected? Well, maybe it was where he expected, learned subconsciously over the decades by hitting millions of balls. But for the uninitiated player trying to add something special to his game, well, this unavoidable problem with the slip stroke could spell disaster. One of the reasons I abandoned working on the slip stroke was that I seemed to have a harder time drawing the ball. Now I know why.
Click to expand...
I agree that's a flaw in the technique, especially for developing players and especially when the same thing can be accomplished without changing things mid-stroke. Hitting the CB significantly above where he addressed it is a prime indicator that this isn't optimal unless you need it for other purposes like "straightening" your stroke. I think it's a bandaid, not a feature.

pj
chgo
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Wow! Thanks for that. It seems to validate at least a few points that have been addressed already. There are other interesting things about the slip stroke, some good, some maybe not so.

Here's another composite of Willie in action. The capture on the left was taken exactly at address. Note how far forward his back hand is, and the acute angle formed by his forearm and upper arm. The second capture (on the right) was taken exactly at contact. However you want to define this stroke, Willie's hand ended up several inches rearward of its position at address, and this all occurred during the actual backstroke. What angle is his at forearm now? Basically 90º at contact.

Now look at the computer drawn horizontal lines:

- The top line is only an alignment line I drew through the points of the corner pockets to make sure the photos are vertically identical.

- The bottom line shows how much the butt of the cue has dropped between address and contact times - a good 2"

- The line second from the bottom shows how much his hand dropped during the stroke

- The line through the CB shows that the cue tip raised about 1/2 a tip, turning what looked like a soft stun shot at address into a soft follow shot at actual contact.

The cue is also more level at contact. That's usually a good thing. But contacting the CB higher than he expected? Well, maybe it was where he expected, learned subconsciously over the decades by hitting millions of balls. But for the uninitiated player trying to add something special to his game, well, this unavoidable problem with the slip stroke could spell disaster. One of the reasons I abandoned working on the slip stroke was that I seemed to have a harder time drawing the ball. Now I know why.

These screen captured were taken from a well-known challenge match between Mosconi and Fats, starting at 7:35. There are clear views of several other "grip adjustments" that Willie made during the course of his actual back stroke. You call them what you want, but this ain't a classic pendulum stroke by any stretch of the imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6B1XncJoD0

Enjoy. ;)
Click to expand...


I think it's a slip stroke. But for most of his shots during that match you can clearly see he is not using one.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
I think it's a slip stroke. But for most of his shots during that match you can clearly see he is not using one.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

I'll have to watch it when I have more time. From what I saw so far, there are many instances where he made this type of re-adjustment. Some of them were only an inch or so. The key thing to me is that Mosconi had a tendency to have a very light and floating grip on the cue during his backstroke, and had no problem with his hand slipping back a little, or sometimes a lot.

This is not always apparent because he had plenty of power in his forward stroke, and sometimes that looks like a guy is using a firmer grip until you slow it down and look at it frame-by-frame. One famous world-class player on this board keeps making that mistake over and over again here, and advising everybody to tighten up their grip... and it ain't John Brumback. lol
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I'll have to watch it when I have more time. From what I saw so far, there are many instances where he made this type of re-adjustment. Some of them were only an inch or so. The key thing to me is that Mosconi had a tendency to have a very light and floating grip on the cue during his backstroke, and had no problem with his hand slipping back a little, or sometimes a lot.

This is not always apparent because he had plenty of power in his forward stroke, and sometimes that looks like a guy is using a firmer grip until you slow it down and look at it frame-by-frame. One famous world-class player on this board keeps making that mistake over and over again here, and advising everybody to tighten up their grip... and it ain't John Brumback. lol
Click to expand...


Around 15:06
Real soft shot and he still slipped his grip hand by an inch or two.
 
Johnnyt said:
IMO the slip stroke is all show and no go. That's the reason everyone has a different opinion of what it does. Just something else to confuse the new players that want to learn what can help them. Johnnyt
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I'm gonna disagree a tiny bit. A few years ago I was sparring with a friend and this was about the time where I was getting better(average C player to a high B low A)! And after our match he complimented me on my play and how much I improved. But he also asked where did I develop my slip stroke? I said to him what are you talking about? I guess I have it on some shots,,,, I don't really know why! And I never "practiced" how to slip stroke.

If somebody asks me if I have a slip stroke, I tell no, I don't! But I guess do;) I don't know!

This is why disagree sir:) I have a slip stroke, but I really don't know or when I use it! When I try to pay attention to it, I miss the pocket by a diamond;) so I never think about it!!

ELI
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I'll have to watch it when I have more time. From what I saw so far, there are many instances where he made this type of re-adjustment. Some of them were only an inch or so. The key thing to me is that Mosconi had a tendency to have a very light and floating grip on the cue during his backstroke, and had no problem with his hand slipping back a little, or sometimes a lot.

This is not always apparent because he had plenty of power in his forward stroke, and sometimes that looks like a guy is using a firmer grip until you slow it down and look at it frame-by-frame. One famous world-class player on this board keeps making that mistake over and over again here, and advising everybody to tighten up their grip... and it ain't John Brumback. lol
Click to expand...

Everyone seems to keep stating that pool is dead. Thought it kind of funny that you have us all watching a video where both players, and even the announcer are dead. :D

Can't say for sure, but it sure looks like Willie adjusted his hand for follow shots. It might just be that is the way he adjusted the height of his tip on the cb, and nothing more than that. ??
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I'll have to watch it when I have more time. From what I saw so far, there are many instances where he made this type of re-adjustment. Some of them were only an inch or so. The key thing to me is that Mosconi had a tendency to have a very light and floating grip on the cue during his backstroke, and had no problem with his hand slipping back a little, or sometimes a lot...
Click to expand...

I see an "adjustment' on nearly every shot the camera lets us see his stroke. Whether you call it a slip stroke or stroke adjustment, he's doing it. I also noticed a few times he either swipes at the cue ball or uses BHE to pocket balls. And he also does a version of moving his cue tip up the cue ball for a follow stroke. Instead of cueing high and riding up off of the cue ball, he strokes through the cue ball.

Neil said:
...Can't say for sure, but it sure looks like Willie adjusted his hand for follow shots. It might just be that is the way he adjusted the height of his tip on the cb, and nothing more than that. ??
Click to expand...

He's cueing lower than his finishing position which is the idea of "low follow". You stroke closer to center cue ball and stay away from the miscue area using a different angle of attack. Maybe Willie taught the Pinoys how to do this and Efren and Busty how to grip their cues.

Best,
Mike
 
Bill, maybe he is thinking about Junior Norris, who played a lot in the Dallas area in the 60's and 70's.

Junior passed away several years ago but his Texas license plate was 9 BALL.
 
Neil said:
Everyone seems to keep stating that pool is dead. Thought it kind of funny that you have us all watching a video where both players, and even the announcer are dead. :D

Can't say for sure, but it sure looks like Willie adjusted his hand for follow shots. It might just be that is the way he adjusted the height of his tip on the cb, and nothing more than that. ??
Click to expand...

I was going to say the 'same' thing about the stroke more than an hour ago.

I rather often agree with you when it's kept genuinely simple.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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Mikjary said:
I see an "adjustment' on nearly every shot the camera lets us see his stroke. Whether you call it a slip stroke or stroke adjustment, he's doing it. I also noticed a few times he either swipes at the cue ball or uses BHE to pocket balls. And he also does a version of moving his cue tip up the cue ball for a follow stroke. Instead of cueing high and riding up off of the cue ball, he strokes through the cue ball.



He's cueing lower than his finishing position which is the idea of "low follow". You stroke closer to center cue ball and stay away from the miscue area using a different angle of attack. Maybe Willie taught the Pinoys how to do this and Efren and Busty how to grip their cues.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

That is not what the slip stroke does. When he slips his back hand backwards, the butt HAS to go down unless he raises his elbow. When the butt goes down, the tip comes up. This is happening on the BACK stroke. The forward cue delivery is on a level plane.

They are not dropping the butt on the forward stroke to achieve an "up-stroke", but just before the forward stroke.

IMO, the slipstroke is just a style of play. It adds nothing to the stroke, and can easily take away from a good stroke if one cannot do it naturally. It is not some "magical stroke" that a few top players happened to use, and that the rest of us should strive for. In fact, I believe it is something to stay away from. Like Pat said, it is nothing more than a band-aid.
 
Neil said:
Everyone seems to keep stating that pool is dead. Thought it kind of funny that you have us all watching a video where both players, and even the announcer are dead. :D

Can't say for sure, but it sure looks like Willie adjusted his hand for follow shots. It might just be that is the way he adjusted the height of his tip on the cb, and nothing more than that. ??
Click to expand...

That is very funny!

Not sure, Neil. Willie's gone, along with his secrets. One thing I do know is that the only way I can use a slip stroke is to start with my back hand forward of perpendicular.

When you start your stroke there, your back hand drops away during the backstroke instead of rising. This allows you to easily slide your hand back until the forearm is perpendicular because you aren't lifting up on the cue butt. You follow it down and back as it drops and you are slipping. I don't even need to use a closed bridge to slip up to about 2", but after that a little friction from a closed bridge helps.

Given that fact, I'd begin to look at guys that start with their hand forward like Mosconi did as possible candidates for using this type of stroke. I really don't think it's a good or useful thing if you address the ball with the forearm perpendicular to the table.
 
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I think because of the slowness of the old directional rag cloth, extra force was needed to get the cue ball around table. Also back in the day, they didn't have air conditioning to dry out the air in pool rooms. The conditions of the Depression Era players are probably near identical to Efrens backyard but with Simonis. I bet Jay H. has seen some interesting cloth types on the tables in the Philippines.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
That is very funny!

Not sure, Neil. Willie's gone, along with his secrets. One thing I do know is that the only way I can use a slip stroke is to start with my back hand forward of perpendicular.

When you start your stroke there, your back hand drops away during the backstroke instead of rising. This allows you to easily slide your hand back until the forearm is perpendicular because you aren't lifting up on the cue butt. You follow it down and back as it drops and you are slipping. I don't even need to use a closed bridge to slip up to about 2", but after that a little friction from a closed bridge helps.

Given that fact, I'd begin to look at guys that start with their hand forward like Mosconi did as possible candidates for using this type of stroke. I really don't think it's a good or useful thing if you address the ball with the forearm perpendicular to the table.
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And if you grip your grip at the butt end like a lot of modern day players, a slip stroke means you're gonna drop the baby on the floor.

Lou Figueroa
 
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