Contact point 2 contact point aiming.

L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A new thread to explain contact point on the OB to the contact point on the CB (CP2CP) aiming.

This assumes that one can visualize the contact point on the OB that when contacted by the CB there, it sends the OB to the pocket or target on the rail for banks.

- The contact point on the OB is the Black dot on the OB for the cut angle of interest.

- The contact point on the CB is the Black dot on the CB.

- The CB will appear to be larger than the OB so use the same proportion you visualize on the OB to the obverse side on the CB - A to A (from the edge) or B to B (from the center) as shown.

While standing with the cue outstretched.

- Line up the cue along a line that connects the two dots.

Then get down on the shot without moving the cue except to put your bridge under it.

- Shift the cue laterally and parallel until the tip of the cue is pointed at the center of the CB - for a center ball hit.

= When shifting the cue, move the bridge hand and the grip hand the same distance. Moving both hands together is best.

- Then shoot.

CP2CP AIMING1.png

If shifting is difficult, then pivot the cue at its butt or your shoulder to start.
 
kawawoky71 said:
the problem with that system is you have to know the angle on every shot in advance.
Click to expand...
You mean in degrees? How would that help? As LAMas said, you only need to be able to visualize the contact points, which has nothing to do with knowing the angle in degrees. The difficulty is in doing that and shifting accurately.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
You mean in degrees? How would that help? As LAMas said, you only need to be able to visualize the contact points, which has nothing to do with knowing the angle in degrees. The difficulty is in doing that and shifting accurately.

Every method is "difficult" (takes practice) - at least this one doesn't tell you fairy tales about its magical powers.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

You are going to derail this thread as well in order to mention FAIRYTALES and MAGIC.

At every opportunity you are going to go negative about CTE .

Stan Shuffett
 
LAMas said:
A new thread to explain contact point on the OB to the contact point on the CB (CP2CP) aiming.

This assumes that one can visualize the contact point on the OB that when contacted by the CB there, it sends the OB to the pocket or target on the rail for banks.

- The contact point on the OB is the Black dot on the OB for the cut angle of interest.

- The contact point on the CB is the Black dot on the CB.

- The CB will appear to be larger than the OB so use the same proportion you visualize on the OB to the obverse side on the CB - A to A (from the edge) or B to B (from the center) as shown.

While standing with the cue outstretched.

- Line up the cue along a line that connects the two dots.

Then get down on the shot without moving the cue except to put your bridge under it.

- Shift the cue laterally and parallel until the tip of the cue is pointed at the center of the CB - for a center ball hit.

= When shifting the cue, move the bridge hand and the grip hand the same distance. Moving both hands together is best.

- Then shoot.

View attachment 377059

If shifting is difficult, then pivot the cue at its butt or your shoulder to start.
Click to expand...

A couple of things I noticed. The 30 degree image is not proportional as in mirror imaging. The A and B proportions seem to be equal rather than A equal to A and B equal to B. Or does the shooter use different points of reference to get equal proportions?

Pivoting versus a parallel shift gives the shooter two different alignments between the cue ball and object ball. The pivot creates a thinner cut which varies depending on the initial placement of the tip aimed at the contact point.

Best,
Mike
 
This is why I prefer contact patch.

For a center ball hit, the cue is always on the line to the GB contact patch.

For contact patch, I'm only concern with one line, the line to GB contact patch which is also the direction of travel path for the CB.

Using center ball hit, and yes I can hit CB, this means the cues center is on the same line as the CB direction of travel. This also means I'm stroking to where the GB patch is which is not always the case with contact point. This is the offset I refer at times.

If you look at the OB contact point when stroking, then there are times you are not looking where the CB needs to go, but offset from it. Greater the angles, the greater the offset.

If you are using contact points, but do look where te CB needs to go, you still are offset.

With contact patch, there never is this offset. There is only one line to be concern with, to the GB contact patch which never changes as the angle increases unlike te CB contact point that does.

This makes em all straight shots regardless of the angle. The only concern with the angle then is how much energy will be transfered based on the angle. The actual degree of the angle never matters.

Keeping it simple......



With contact point , there are two lines as seen in the pic.
 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Hi Greg,

How did you determine the GB contact patch when you were learning? Did you only use the arrow or did you use other methods.

My Dad taught me the basics of Ghost Ball without ever using the phrase.

Some individuals are very good at estimating distances while others can not even come close especially if there is an angle involved.

I went from 'Ghost Ball' to the equal & opposite overlap method in a matter of months. Then I went to using a shadow method. Then I went basically to using no conscious method at all for most of my playing days. I just saw the relationship between the pocket (or rail) & the OB & the QB & set up & shot to put the CB were I 'figured' it needed to be.

'Feel'. What is 'feel'? I think we use the word 'feel' for anything that is not solid or specifically visual. But... can 'feel' be used to describe the decisions that the subconscious mind makes based on the complete data base from which it has draw?

I think we can & probably should. If it's not conscious based, then it's subconscious based. If it's subconscious based then it's 'feel' based. Perhaps not really but that's sort of how we describe it.

Best 2 You...& All.
Rick

PS Sorry for the bit of 'tangent' rant. I really do want to know how you learned the Ghost Ball Contact Patch Method.

PSS If not in public, then perhaps in a PM.
 
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Mikjary said:
A couple of things I noticed. The 30 degree image is not proportional as in mirror imaging. The A and B proportions seem to be equal rather than A equal to A and B equal to B. Or does the shooter use different points of reference to get equal proportions?

Pivoting versus a parallel shift gives the shooter two different alignments between the cue ball and object ball. The pivot creates a thinner cut which varies depending on the initial placement of the tip aimed at the contact point.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
The Microsoft Power Point has a "snap to [its] grid" so that I couldn't place the line exact. My apology.

I can follow up with an AutoCAD more accurate presentation if that will help.

I just hope that the concept can be digested by those that could use a graphic cartoon to help visualize it rather than words alone.

As PJ mentioned, that the numeric angle in degrees is not important to solve, and with CIT, etc., the resulting angle that the OB travels may not be the same - if a protractor is used.

The rub is accurately identifying the spot on the OB to the proportional spot on the larger appearing CB. Also the parallel shift to center isn't trivial. The pivot from the butt imparts a 1 or 2 degree error that may be in the noise when the OB and CB are close together.

My bigger problem is my stroke.

Be well.
 
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LAMas said:
Mike,
The Microsoft Power Point has a "snap to [its] grid" so that I couldn't place the line exact. My apology.

I can follow up with an AutoCAD more accurate presentation if that will help.

I just hope that the concept can be digested by those that could use a graphic cartoon to help visualize it rather than words alone.

As PJ mentioned, that the numeric angle in degrees is not important to solve, and with CIT, etc., the resulting angle that the OB travels may not be the same - if a protractor is used.

The rub is accurately identifying the spot on the OB to the proportional spot on the larger appearing CB. Also the parallel shift to center isn't trivial. The pivot from the butt imparts a 1 or 2 degree error that may be in the noise when the OB and CB are close together.

My bigger problem is my stroke.

Be well.
Click to expand...

Good Morning E,

I think the graphic is a good aid. There is hand drawn version I think by boyersj or Robin but it is just for the 1/2 ball alignment only & needs some extra explanation from time to time.

I'd like to add that I never used or assigned any numbers like 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or 7/8 when I went from 'ghost Ball' to equal & opposite overlap.

As a 13 year old, I just came to the realization of what the different Ghost Ball positions looked like from the perspective of the CB line. One of my fractions may have been 3/8 or 7/16.

So...I guess one might prefer to call that CP2CP. But that is not how I visualized it. I think that is because the cue stick is not on the cp2cp line but parallel to that line. Plus... my stick was very often aligned out into open space as I was using outside english on nearly every shot.

I think much of the 'argumentative' discussion sometimes stems from one side speaking from actual specifics & the other speaking from a conceptual perspective & perception basis.

Just my added 2 cents.

A great weekend to All,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Good Morning E,

I think the graphic is a good aid. There is hand drawn version I think by boyersj or Robin but it is just for the 1/2 ball alignment only & needs some extra explanation from time to time.

I'd like to add that I never used or assigned any numbers like 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or 7/8 when I went from 'ghost Ball' to equal & opposite overlap.

As a 13 year old, I just came to the realization of what the different Ghost Ball positions looked like from the perspective of the CB line. One of my fractions may have been 3/8 or 7/16.

So...I guess one might prefer to call that CP2CP. But that is not how I visualized it. I think that is because the cue stick is not on the cp2cp line but parallel to that line. Plus... my stick was very often aligned out into open space as I was using outside english on nearly every shot.

I think much of the 'argumentative' discussion sometimes stems from one side speaking from actual specifics & the other speaking from a conceptual perspective & perception basis.

Just my added 2 cents.

A great weekend to All,
Rick
Click to expand...

Rick,

Spot on!
I have never met a good pool player that was a mathematician. But, I have never met Dr. Dave at a tournament.: wink:

I venture to say that the better pool player has better special comprehension than number skills.

I failed calculus and physics in college because the math required to prove the concepts got in my way. I design electronic and optical units graphically for satellites, radar, missiles and bombs but I leave the math to the CAD software and PHDs that support my designs - I have to for credibility. LOL

I am a "Big Picture" type of guy.

Be well.
 
LAMas said:
Rick,

Spot on!
I have never met a good pool player that was a mathematician. But, I have never met Dr. Dave at a tournament.: wink:

I venture to say that the better pool player has better special comprehension than number skills.

I failed calculus and physics in college because the math required to prove the concepts got in my way. I design electronic and optical units graphically for satellites, radar, missiles and bombs but I leave the math to the CAD software and PHDs that support my designs - I have to for credibility. LOL

I am a "Big Picture" type of guy.

Be well.
Click to expand...

Hi E,

I did very well in calculus & physics. Yet right now I might have problems solving an algebra one problem. If you don't use it you lose it. That said the concepts are well entrenched. Our 'Math' is man made so as to have a means to try 'explain' & relate to the real sciences like Physics, Chemistry, etc. That is why the math can be lost. It's not really real, but man made. The actual Physics & Chemistry, etc. are real.

Stay Well,
Rick

PS I recently posted this statement elsewhere, 'It's all in the details...as long as one can still see the big picture.'.:wink:
 
LAMas said:
Mike,
The Microsoft Power Point has a "snap to [its] grid" so that I couldn't place the line exact. My apology.

I can follow up with an AutoCAD more accurate presentation if that will help.

I just hope that the concept can be digested by those that could use a graphic cartoon to help visualize it rather than words alone.

As PJ mentioned, that the numeric angle in degrees is not important to solve, and with CIT, etc., the resulting angle that the OB travels may not be the same - if a protractor is used.

The rub is accurately identifying the spot on the OB to the proportional spot on the larger appearing CB. Also the parallel shift to center isn't trivial. The pivot from the butt imparts a 1 or 2 degree error that may be in the noise when the OB and CB are close together.

My bigger problem is my stroke.

Be well.
Click to expand...

LAMas,

Thanks for that. My OCD was acting up. That's what I was hoping you'd say. :)

I like the pivot. My hip pivot gives me that slight over cut. Plus, when I keep my head on the shot line instead of moving body parts, the shot lines up with a stick aiming system I use as a double check.

I haven't missed a ball in 2 weeks and probably never will again due to all these double checks with different systems. :cool:

Best,
Mike
 
stan shuffett said:
You are going to derail this thread as well in order to mention FAIRYTALES and MAGIC.

At every opportunity you are going to go negative about CTE .

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...

He deleted the comment. But he still thinks that "visualization" has nothing to do with fairy tales and magic........ It is scientific and "mathematically Correct........ Maybe........

But learning a specific number of visual perceptions between cb and ob (not overlaps) and learn how to pocket balls is "fairy tales" and "magic"........

Mr Johnson what exactly are you doing in this forum ???
 
Mikjary said:
LAMas,

Thanks for that. My OCD was acting up. That's what I was hoping you'd say. :)

I like the pivot. My hip pivot gives me that slight over cut. Plus, when I keep my head on the shot line instead of moving body parts, the shot lines up with a stick aiming system I use as a double check.

I haven't missed a ball in 2 weeks and probably never will again due to all these double checks with different systems. :cool:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
On thick cuts using CT2CT, I am at inside English aiming at the contact spot on the OB and I can fire from there letting the deflection of the cue double the distance, No sifting or pivoting for them.

Hot!

Be well

The TOI shooters know this and use it to also get shape.
 
LAMas said:
Mike,
On thick cuts using CT2CT, I am at inside English aiming at the contact spot on the OB and I can fire from there letting the deflection of the cue double the distance, No sifting or pivoting for them.

Hot!

Be well

The TOI shooters know this and use it to also get shape.
Click to expand...

I agree with that. My inside alignment pre-pivot is pretty close to the aim line with inside spin. I can calculate the speed for deflection purposes and cinch shots. The deflection is more consistent than the throw factor with spin for direction and friction.

Best,
Mike
 
I hit the contact point on the cue ball with my tip...I don't shift to center unless I need to. Even on the picture on the far right with the 90 degree cut...my tip is on the edge of the cue ball.
 
HawaiianEye said:
I hit the contact point on the cue ball with my tip...I don't shift to center unless I need to. Even on the picture on the far right with the 90 degree cut...my tip is on the edge of the cue ball.
Click to expand...

I know you've probably said to where do you align but could you save me & possibly others the trouble of searching & explain say where would you be aligned for the edge tip hit for the near 90* shot?

Thanks in advance & Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
HawaiianEye said:
I hit the contact point on the cue ball with my tip...I don't shift to center unless I need to. Even on the picture on the far right with the 90 degree cut...my tip is on the edge of the cue ball.
Click to expand...

Good for you but how do you not miscue?

Be well
 
LAMas said:
Good for you but how do you not miscue?

Be well
Click to expand...

Chalk!

I make sure my cue is chalked real well and try to keep a straight stroke. Depending upon how much your cue deflects will depend upon how far you can hit to the edge and have the ball come back online after the bit of deflection.

If I use my LD shaft, I can hit the ball VERY STRAIGHT even when using the very edge of the cue ball with my tip.
 
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