When is a Foul a Foul?

[hang-the-9]

Where did I say it is ok for a player to "hide" a foul? I reread my post 4 times to be sure...

This "The shooter is correct, in that they are not obligated to tell your team mate that they fouled unless asked". There is no way to read that other than "if you foul and they don't see it, don't tell them about it". I guess it's not technically "hiding it" where you go out of your way to make sure they don't see a foul, but what would stop a player from getting his body in the way of the line of sight by "accident".

The only way that can be close to being an acceptable rule is if the opponent is designated as the ref and will watch the shot even if he has to walk around the table with the shooter.

 

[Djtnak]

Referee concerns:

I may as well get in front of this now.

I was warned by other referees that posting on AZB as a referee might solicit some attacks. I was confused at this statement at first. It seems to me that you would all want my (and other referees) input, especially if I happened to be working at the event in question.

My most recent addition to a thread that concerns me greatly seems to have already started the attacks/confrontations. I will tell you right now that I will not be drawn into that type of discussion. Period.

If you all want to attack me for doing a good job and trying to keep everyone informed, well, I don't even know what to say to that, other than piss off. If I continue to get attacked like I am both publicly and privately, I will simply stop posting. It is very simple.

If you all want to keep it civil, I am down for and any all discussions.

The choice is yours.

 

[puma122]

While it's polite, it's not in the rules at all that your opponent has to warn you that you are about to shoot a bad shot, there was nothing bad about what he did, and I would not even consider it being an ass.

The only thing that is not quite good is being happy about the situation. Had that happen a few times in league where a player would be totally outplaying another one, then lost on a scratch on the 8, the other guy jumped up all happy like he just ran out himself instead of sitting there watching. Pissed me off a bit there. You don't celebrate your opponents mistakes or misfortune.

There was a match I just saw, where in a major tournament Earl Strickland shot the wrong ball with ball in hand. The ref called a foul, the opponent did not say a word that Earl was about to do that, and of course neither did the ref. If it's not something that a ref would do, why expect your opponent to do the same thing?

Yeah, I agree. I am mostly mad at myself for doing it. (Straight up embarrasing really) I should have known. I should have asked if I was unsure. I still think the guy is an ass for not saying something. That said, perhaps I am the ass for thinking I WOULD say something if the shoe was on the other foot.

Oh well, lesson learned. Hopefully the lesson sticks, and I never have to re-visit this lesson...

 

[puma122]

I may as well get in front of this now.

I was warned by other referees that posting on AZB as a referee might solicit some attacks. I was confused at this statement at first. It seems to me that you would all want my (and other referees) input, especially if I happened to be working at the event in question.

My most recent addition to a thread that concerns me greatly seems to have already started the attacks/confrontations. I will tell you right now that I will not be drawn into that type of discussion. Period.

If you all want to attack me for doing a good job and trying to keep everyone informed, well, I don't even know what to say to that, other than piss off. If I continue to get attacked like I am both publicly and privately, I will simply stop posting. It is very simple.

If you all want to keep it civil, I am down for and any all discussions.

The choice is yours.

As I understand it, you are volunteers. Thank you for volunteering. I think you guys did a great job. THANK YOU!

 

[pt109]

So the other player is OK to walk around and watch the shots then? You don't have to foul on a "tricky shot", the guy could have miscued,or just did a accidental masse into the wrong ball or any one of other 20 things that can cause a foul when it's not a possibility. Saying it's OK for a shooter to hide a foul is just wrong. The only way for an opponent to watch for fouls is to be in line to see the shots, which means walking around the table to get to the right angle to see it properly. Unless you allow that, there is no way you can say that the shooter does not have to say when they fouled. What if the guy is in his chair, and the other player is blocking the shot with his body, whch happens a lot. Now we'll have a player walking around to watch the shot instead of sitting still and not distracting the shooter.

I would never knowingly play in a tournament that said "you don't have to say you fouled unless someone sees you" as an official rule. You may as well say "Hi, here is your table to play on, cheat em if you can".

It's hard to get through the day without telling a few lies...
...but to make 'sins of omission' a legal right should not be in the rules.
Why isn't 'play honestly' in the spirit of the game written in?

Caveat.....I also think it's important not to judge too harshly....
...I can't hold other people to my way of doing things...
...so I'll just look away.
But if we're gambling, I won't be displeased to find that larceny in my
opponent...it shows weakness.

 

[goober]

This may be a contrary look at your question, but it is pertinent. I am 69 and play in a Senior Center with guys all the way up to 90. In these age groups, steady hands and balance are often kinda "shaky". So inadvertent touching of balls, < 1 inch movement of touched balls, and < 1 inch movement of cue tip on the cue ball are most often overlooked. In tournaments, it's tighter, but we love to play...... with our infirmities and all the things that go with advanced years.

 

[JC]

I may as well get in front of this now.

I was warned by other referees that posting on AZB as a referee might solicit some attacks. I was confused at this statement at first. It seems to me that you would all want my (and other referees) input, especially if I happened to be working at the event in question.

My most recent addition to a thread that concerns me greatly seems to have already started the attacks/confrontations. I will tell you right now that I will not be drawn into that type of discussion. Period.

If you all want to attack me for doing a good job and trying to keep everyone informed, well, I don't even know what to say to that, other than piss off. If I continue to get attacked like I am both publicly and privately, I will simply stop posting. It is very simple.

If you all want to keep it civil, I am down for and any all discussions.

The choice is yours.

No one has attacked you publically in this thread. You may not be cut out for an internet forum if you feel that way from what's been said here. It's about as civil as it gets.

BTW the OP here walks the walk. He handed me the cue ball in our match last week because he double hit it at the far end of the table. I had no clue nor inclination that he had fouled. That's how pool should be played unless the stakes are death.

JC

 

[Poolshootindon]

Integrity

Bob.. If the player commits a foul, he/she should be honest and say he/she committed a foul.

I do believe that when the combatants, whether it be singles or doubles should be the only ones who should have a say in the matter (except ref when called upon).

You may lose the game because you called a foul upon yourself, but you will know you did the right thing.

Don

 

[hang-the-9]

I may as well get in front of this now.

I was warned by other referees that posting on AZB as a referee might solicit some attacks. I was confused at this statement at first. It seems to me that you would all want my (and other referees) input, especially if I happened to be working at the event in question.

My most recent addition to a thread that concerns me greatly seems to have already started the attacks/confrontations. I will tell you right now that I will not be drawn into that type of discussion. Period.

If you all want to attack me for doing a good job and trying to keep everyone informed, well, I don't even know what to say to that, other than piss off. If I continue to get attacked like I am both publicly and privately, I will simply stop posting. It is very simple.

If you all want to keep it civil, I am down for and any all discussions.

The choice is yours.

If you're talking about my question, how is that an attack as you say? I just want to find out why it's OK for a player not to say they fouled unless caught, especially in a tournament where there is not a ref at every table?

I'm glad you clarified the rule, but I'm sure most people would wonder why that rule was even used.

In every tournament I've played in, when they said anything about calling fouls, we were always told it's on your honor to call a foul if you make one. Here it's actually the opposite which is a bit odd.

 

[hang-the-9]

This may be a contrary look at your question, but it is pertinent. I am 69 and play in a Senior Center with guys all the way up to 90. In these age groups, steady hands and balance are often kinda "shaky". So inadvertent touching of balls, < 1 inch movement of touched balls, and < 1 inch movement of cue tip on the cue ball are most often overlooked. In tournaments, it's tighter, but we love to play...... with our infirmities and all the things that go with advanced years.

OK, I totally agree with this situation, anyone over 69 that I play, I will let them tap the cueball LOL, anyone 68 or less, is an asshat if they don't call the foul on themselves :wink:

I'm sure that most members on AZB have tactfully ignored fouls when playing opponents that we were happy were just playing. I play with a lot of kids, handicapped people (one guy I play with has half his body paralized and has to bridge over his knuckes and hold himself up on the table), a good friend of my son's has arms that go only elbow length and he has no thumbs and he plays, several of the people in my regular tournament are D or low C players. I overlook a lot of fouls in a lot of games, if the hit is close or if they don't hit a rail after contact but it's close, I don't care. I'm not about to jump over some guy or younger kid that can barely make 2-3 shots in a row so I can run out on him with ball in hand. The only time I will pull out a rule against a much weaker player is if they are serious about trying to learn the rules and to get better. Then I treat them as an equal and hold them up to the same standard I would any good player, but that foul call would not be so I can beat them. I see it as me respecting the player enough that I hold them up to the same standards as I do if I'm shooting or if I am playing an equal or better player. Those are the people that want to win fairly, not just be happy that I let them win.

BUT, a perfectly able-bodied man who knows the rules wants to hide a foul or argue that someone did not see it so it's OK, if you don't have your honor at the table you show your character to the rest of us. Word gets around about people, you don't know how many times I would see some guy and half the room tells me "watch out, he cheats if he can". That's not something that shold be allowed, much less set out as a rule in a tournament where they say "if they don't see it, it's OK to keep shooting".

Djtnak I'm sure did not write the rule he enforced, and I'm also sure that he as a person outside of the turnament he would agree with us, I just find fault with any event that would hand something like that rule out to enforce.

 

[FranCrimi]

I disagree.

Many times referees are dealing with players that are ignorant of the actual rules or just simply don't understand how the balls interact with each other. When it comes to situations of ignorance a couple of simple questions and answers could clearly show that the player committed a foul or that he didn't.

Now if it's a case where the ref can't come to a clear decision than the call goes to the shooter.

***Edit to add**

If that's not how the rules are written -- it's how they should be.

Answering questions about rules --- sure.

If you're asking a referee to teach you how to referee your match, for example, how to read the directions of the balls after the hit, no. It's not the ref's job to teach players how to be referees while a match is in progress.

You can't allow a ref to make a call on a hit that he or she didn't see, regardless of how sure the ref may be about the call. It sets a bad precedent and isn't fair to the player the call goes against. The ref has to be there to witness it. If not, the call goes to the shooter.

No, the rule should definitely not be changed.

 

[336Robin]

Its the opponents responsibiility

I was playing in the Western BCA Team tournament and I notice the opposing player make a bad hit. My team player who was playing him assumed he didn't foul since he didn't say anything. I asked the opposing player if he thought it was a bad hit and he said it was. I then asked him why he didn't admit to a bad hit. He said if my team player had asked if it was a bad hit he would of admitted it but since he didn't ask he wouldn't admit to the foul.

My team player was in his seat (where his suppose to be) and didn't have the vantage point that I had. Any opinions on this?

If you snooze you lose. Its the opponents responsibility to call it. The game is supposed to be between two gentlemen.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

No one has attacked you publically in this thread. You may not be cut out for an internet forum if you feel that way from what's been said here. It's about as civil as it gets.

BTW the OP here walks the walk. He handed me the cue ball in our match last week because he double hit it at the far end of the table. I had no clue nor inclination that he had fouled. That's how pool should be played unless the stakes are death.

JC

I remember that now! That's just how I play. I would rather lose than cheat to win.

One time I thought I made a good hit in a tournament but I clearly fouled. My opponent about had a heart attack. I polled the audience and they were ALL shaking their head "yes" that I had indeed fouled. So I picked up the cue ball and handed to him. Sometimes in the heat of the battle your mind can perceive the wrong thing. I always want to be fair playing pool.

 

[cbi1000]

Same thing happened to my team at this same event mates years ago. One more reason why I do not attend. Tired of fn babies in pool. I see it at every level, from the beginners up to the pros. Winning is everything at any costs. It's a game, and show some respect your yourself, teammates, opponents, and the game.

It's a stupid rule the BCA should change it. PERIOD

 

[Jaden]

yep...

I'm the type of player Bob and you've played me before that if I foul I will pick up the cue ball and hand it to you before you even ask. Some players feel that the other player should have been paying attention and ask or call it. To me I think it skirts the lines of cheating. And if I can't beat you straight up without trying to pull a fast one then I need to up my game and not cheat someone out of theirs.

It's the same thing for me when I notice my opponent purposely give me a shitty rack. If they feel they have to cheat to win, then that's on them.

If they do it twice though, I'll make them re-rack...

Jaden

 

[goober]

Hang-the-9, Right on and glad to get the response. Even in our age groups there are those who will make obvious fouls and just keep shooting. Then it gets hard to make allowances for even the smallest of flub-ups.

 

[peppersauce]

.................

 

[cbi1000]

I was one of the referees at that wbca event. The shooter is correct, in that they are not obligated to tell your team mate that they fouled unless asked. When the player is asked, they are obligated (within the ruleset) to tell the truth. All your team mate had to do was ask. If he knows it was a foul, and the shooter does not admit it, now you have a problem that could have been rectified by simply calling a referee for any tricky shot.

Even when the shooter does not tell the truth, I have ways of finding out what happened and making a ruling after the fact.

Just about the dumbest rule on the planet. This is for FUN by amateurs. And that room is packed so tight, trying to run around to see every angle is just about impossible. Pool is in the crap house because of stuff just like this. End of story.

 

[cbi1000]

In league play I call it on myself. Gambling is a different story.

It is not, cheating is cheating. With money involved and you cheat, that is called stealing. I would have no issues calling out a thief if i saw this happen.

 

[pocket]

It is not, cheating is cheating. With money involved and you cheat, that is called stealing. I would have no issues calling out a thief if i saw this happen.

I agree. There are many fouls that even if you were paying attention could be missed. The shooter has the obligation to call the foul.

Many will equivocate and justify what is simply cheating. If that's how you fly that's how you fly.