Fear of Feel

[Sloppy Pockets]

I would say the start of the way you aim would be done consciously. Getting to the point when you pull the trigger is done subconsciously. Feel and knowledge gained through trial an error would play a big part to the subconscious part of aiming.
Just my opinion.

You're a guitarist. Wouldn't you say it's similar to the way you learn to play the blues?

First you learn your pentatonic major scale: 1-4, 1-3, 1-3, 1-3, 1-4, 1-4. You practice it over and over again, even though it doesn't sound like music. Then you learn four more finger patterns to play the same scale, and you practice them until you have them. Then you start working on your pentatonic minor scales until you perfect them. This is your "aiming system" for the guitar. And thankfully, there's not a million of them to choose from. Lol

Next you start to try to apply these scales to some music, so you play along to some Albert King, and sure enough, these scales fit right into the music, just like you were promised. But it doesn't sound too good, and you still have to think about where your fingers are, and where they are going. Then one day you pick the damn thing up, put on some early Clapton, and it just comes out of you. Not perfectly, not every line, but you're doing it without thinking, even though your fingers are going to the same notes in those scales you've been practicing.

If you keep it up and play 12 hours a day (like I did in my misspent youth), you may finally arrive at a point where the notes and chords just flow from your mind directly to your fingers. Your tone gets better, your picking gets precise, your string bends get tastier, your rhythm gets rock solid, and your solos, well... they just kick ass.

Or...

You can just pick the damn thing up, put on some Stevie Ray, crank the amp to 11, and try to play along... for years, usually.


Either method works fine, but it is usually the former method that is taught professionally, and the latter method when you teach yourself. Which guys play better? Well, technically, the method guys are usually the best, but their music often seems to lack those ethereal qualities like "soul" and "style" and "creativity". Are these useful things for a pool player to have? Don't ask me, I'm self-taught in both.

 

[ENGLISH!]

...The use of the word system is not the issue, but the claims made about that system, at times, will be. Just don't make claims you can not back up ...

...The whole issue is making claims and just wanting people to blindly accept that claim without question....

...There is a difference in aiming and getting into position to shoot. I have no idea what people mean by alignment. For me, the only difference in applying spin v center ball is where I place the my bridge hand on the table...

...Getting into position to shoot is solely dependent on the ball positions on the table. There is no aiming system that can cover all the shooting position possible. If all you play is 9 ball, you haven't a clue about what I'm talking about. I can say for a fact that never in a game of 9 ball is the CB been stuck in a middle of a full rack like can happen in 14.1...

...Below is a example of what I am talking about. There are also times one leg has to go up on the table and so on. I have never thought about aligning anything, just get in to best shooting position allowable for the ball positions. Include a pic of that also....

Happy Belated Birthday, Greg.

We are less than a year apart in age. I would never have guessed that.

There is much to what you sometimes say.

How long have you been playing the game?

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The sells pitch is getting old.

I ride and work in a motorcycle shop. There are some people that should not own motorcycles cause they just don't have a clue and nor do they want one.

Same in pool. Just don't have the motivation to seek the answers. Just don't have the motivation to learn. There is nothing you can do. That is just them.

The use of the word system is not the issue, but the claims made about that system, at times, will be. Just don't make claims you can not back up like there are gaps in ghost ball aiming and not give examples of such.

The whole issue is making claims and just wanting people to blindly accept that claim without question....ie gaps in ghost ball aiming.

If you truly are motivated to help people with their game, then your books would be free or maybe on a donation basis.

This is why I haven't done so with my stuff......its free cause I truly want to help people. Its so simple, even a kids and beginners can use understand and use it. Can't say that about all systems.

There is a difference in aiming and getting into position to shoot. I have no idea what people mean by alignment. For me, the only difference in applying spin v center ball is where I place the my bridge hand on the table.

Getting into position to shoot is solely dependent on the ball positions on the table. There is no aiming system that can cover all the shooting position possible. If all you play is 9 ball, you haven't a clue about what I'm talking about. I can say for a fact that never in a game of 9 ball is the CB been stuck in a middle of a full rack like can happen in 14.1.

Below is a example of what I am talking about. There are also times one leg has to go up on the table and so on. I have never thought about aligning anything, just get in to best shooting position allowable for the ball positions. Include a pic of that also.

Your motivation now is in promoting your books whenever possible, not really helping people.

I play 14.1 almost exclusively and your example literally NEVER happens.

 

[336Robin]

Your Pics have messed up the thread

Duckie your pictures have really messed up this thread please take them down.

 

[cfrandy]

Some good advice!

It wasn't long after watching the movie, "The Legend of Bagger Vance", that I went from a D-golfer to an A-golfer in our men's golf association. There was something in that movie that Will Smith said that made all the difference in the world! He said, "everyone has a swing in them, you simply have to find it".
If he had said, "you must swing like Ben Hogan or Moe Norman" it would have meant nothing to me! So, instead of trying to swing like someone else...I tried to hone the skills I already possessed. It worked!
Most of the people here in this thread already possess the fundamental skills to pocket balls. They do not need to learn to pocket balls like Efren Reyes to become better players...they need only hone the skills they already possess. Someone said in this thread of CTE that he would add it to his "toolbox". Knowing 12 ways to pocket balls does NOT perfect your shot making ability. Our conscious mind cannot multitask efficiently. Learning ONE way to pocket balls perfectly will perfect your shot making ability!

BTW, THIS is the beauty of CJ Wiley's TOI. By limiting your targets to just two, center ball and the edge of the ball, you will be able to hone the skill much faster. The less choices you have to make, the easier it is to make the RIGHT choice! Sorry if you did not want to hear that, but it is a fact!
I'm not saying, you could ever rise to the level of play that CJ has experienced, you are NOT motivated to do so. What I am saying is, you have the opportunity to learn from someone that has achieved the highest level. What you do with what you've learned depends on what motivates YOU!

 

[336Robin]

Always Interested in new things

It wasn't long after watching the movie, "The Legend of Bagger Vance", that I went from a D-golfer to an A-golfer in our men's golf association. There was something in that movie that Will Smith said that made all the difference in the world! He said, "everyone has a swing in them, you simply have to find it".
If he had said, "you must swing like Ben Hogan or Moe Norman" it would have meant nothing to me! So, instead of trying to swing like someone else...I tried to hone the skills I already possessed. It worked!
Most of the people here in this thread already possess the fundamental skills to pocket balls. They do not need to learn to pocket balls like Efren Reyes to become better players...they need only hone the skills they already possess. Someone said in this thread of CTE that he would add it to his "toolbox". Knowing 12 ways to pocket balls does NOT perfect your shot making ability. Our conscious mind cannot multitask efficiently. Learning ONE way to pocket balls perfectly will perfect your shot making ability!

BTW, THIS is the beauty of CJ Wiley's TOI. By limiting your targets to just two, center ball and the edge of the ball, you will be able to hone the skill much faster. The less choices you have to make, the easier it is to make the RIGHT choice! Sorry if you did not want to hear that, but it is a fact!
I'm not saying, you could ever rise to the level of play that CJ has experienced, you are NOT motivated to do so. What I am saying is, you have the opportunity to learn from someone that has achieved the highest level. What you do with what you've learned depends on what motivates YOU!

Randy,
I am always open to trying something new although I have things that are working for me. Thats an interesting take that you just printed about CJ's methods. Simplification is always a great asset to anything. Id be interested in seeing how that works. Well im out of here for the pool room....toodles.

 

[ENGLISH!]

It wasn't long after watching the movie, "The Legend of Bagger Vance", that I went from a D-golfer to an A-golfer in our men's golf association. There was something in that movie that Will Smith said that made all the difference in the world! He said, "everyone has a swing in them, you simply have to find it".
If he had said, "you must swing like Ben Hogan or Moe Norman" it would have meant nothing to me! So, instead of trying to swing like someone else...I tried to hone the skills I already possessed. It worked!
Most of the people here in this thread already possess the fundamental skills to pocket balls. They do not need to learn to pocket balls like Efren Reyes to become better players...they need only hone the skills they already possess. Someone said in this thread of CTE that he would add it to his "toolbox". Knowing 12 ways to pocket balls does NOT perfect your shot making ability. Our conscious mind cannot multitask efficiently. Learning ONE way to pocket balls perfectly will perfect your shot making ability!

BTW, THIS is the beauty of CJ Wiley's TOI. By limiting your targets to just two, center ball and the edge of the ball, you will be able to hone the skill much faster. The less choices you have to make, the easier it is to make the RIGHT choice! Sorry if you did not want to hear that, but it is a fact!
I'm not saying, you could ever rise to the level of play that CJ has experienced, you are NOT motivated to do so. What I am saying is, you have the opportunity to learn from someone that has achieved the highest level. What you do with what you've learned depends on what motivates YOU!

Randy,

Bagger was not of this world. I'd tend to take his advice. I know what might be considered to be THE technical golf swing yet never could execute it as my body is rather busted up a bit from playing other sports. Like you, those words spoken by Bagger hit home with me too.

Yes, the reasons you state about just the two targets for TOI is what I like very much about it. Due to the LD shafts that I'm using, I've added the 1/4 location between the center & edge for some shots. I've considered going back to regular maple but I think I may switch back & forth depending on the game at hand.

TOI is a dynamic method. I think if one has played sports, especially golf, tennis, or ping pong one can relate to it very well.

Others have difficulty. Some have difficulty with english too. As human beings, for some reason, we generally do not like change. Some are simply afraid to experiment & try new & different things.

For some, I think there is definitely a 'Fear of Feel'. They would rather trust the minds of others instead of just trusting in themselves & what 'gifts' they have been given.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[cfrandy]

Sure,
I love pool absolutely, its me and the table and me figuring out and learning everything I can about it. I love being able to figure out the skills to be had in this game its like a huge jigsaw puzzle that really can be simply explained if you look for the things to make it much simpler.

Then understand, what motivates you is NOT what motivates me, and probably many other people who play pool. Don't get me wrong...I love pool too, but "love" is NOT what motivates me. Understand too, you will never rise to the level of a professional money player because you are not motivated to do so.
I've asked this question, because for most people to improve at ANY particular skill, they need only to get motivated! What prevents us from NOT improving is a lack of motivation!
How often does a pool player buy a new stick or shaft thinking that it is the pathway to improvement? Funny thing is, it sometimes works initially. Not because of the cue, but because the person is now concentrating on just one thing...the new cue. He's not thinking about "how to aim" any longer, because he doesn't need to...he has a new cue that will now improve his game. However, we all know that he will soon revert to his previous self. He was NOT motivated to hone his skills...he was motivated to buy a new cue!

 

[Straightpool_99]

..................

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is a very long thread, and I must admit, I haven't read the whole thing. I have very mixed feelings about aiming systems. On the one hand I have tremendous respect for SOME of the people that try to make systems. They have passion for the game and the mental fortitude to try and try to find the perfect way of doing things. I do believe that they are sincere in their convictions, even if I don't always share their point of view. On the other hand there are also people out to make a quick buck with platitudes and nonsense, and at times it is hard to know which category an author belongs to.

People like Duckie get a lot of flack on this subforum, but I do believe he is sincere in his beliefs. I too think that beyond a certain point of competence there are no more shortcuts and you have to build your own path so to speak. I think most of the at least half decent players on this forums have gotten insights through their play that cannot easily be put into words, and even if they could, would not necessarily apply to other people. I know that the way I aim is, even if the results are not of pro caliber, is tremendously complicated, because I rely on back of ball, and contact points which also includes compensation for spin and speed. I know that if I hit a ball at a certain speed with a certain spin, it will go towards the center of the pocket, but with less speed or different spin I might miss it. I've simplified the process by adding 3 categories of shots and aims that I feel makes calculations easy and intuitive FOR ME. Any aiming system that does not explicitly adress these kinds of pheomena, must necessarily be incomplete (but may be useful nevertheless).

FEEL to me is the actual result of all of your experiences on the table, and as we know "experience" usually means unfortunate experience. Once you get to a certain level your experiences become more and more positive, in that you will have more successful shots under your belt. Your feel will then be something you can rely on, rather than an enemy that must be feared.

:thumbup2: :thumbup2:

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Your motivation now is in promoting your books whenever possible, not really helping people.

Ya, 'cause he's gonna rich selling a few thousand copies at $13. Lol

The last drink I had was a rather ordinary single malt that cost me $15 at a restaurant in Brooklyn. It was a pretty stingy pour, too. Guess which one will do me more good in the long run, Robin's book or that jigger of Glenmorangie?

Also, I picking up this morning and I noticed the mailer from my book laying on the coffee table. It had had a label that said $3.40... which is $1.40 more than Robin charged me for shipping.

Greed, just unbridled greed, I say.

Let me know when your book, "Duckie and the Art of Archery" comes out. Prolly be $100 with the cost of the included arrow.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

People like Duckie get a lot of flack on this subforum, but I do believe he is sincere in his beliefs.

No one gets on his case because of his beliefs. Lots of players use ghost ball, or some variation of it. Only Duckie condescendingly brings it into every thread on aiming.

Which I wouldn't give a crap about if he'd show us just one video of him running a rack of balls. If "the arrow" points the way to pool success, I want to see exactly what that success looks like. Stan has done that for CTE/Pro One, now it's Duckie's turn.

 

[Straightpool_99]

..............

 

[ENGLISH!]

Watching Duckie run a rack of balls would prove absolutely nothing. Ghost ball and back of ball aiming are being used by thousands and thousands of players, some of them at the very pinnacle of the sports of pool and snooker. Even if Duckie would prove to be unable to run 3 balls in a row, would that discredit the aiming methods of all these other players? What about Babe Cranfield himself? He was a world champion (which Stan Shuffet isn't), and he is supposed to have run 768 balls in straight pool practice. Not a whole lot of people have done that, as you may know. Does that prove that the arrow that he developed is superior to CTE/Pro 1? (I'm presuming that is what he used, like I presume Stan Shuffet really uses CTE).

:thumbup2: :thumbup2: :thumbup2:

 

[cfrandy]

Amazing that you equate running racks of balls with pool success! I guess you would then agree that that no one here has been more successful than CJ or that Willie Hoppe was least successful because there has never been a video of him running racks of balls?

 

[cfrandy]

Watching Duckie run a rack of balls would prove absolutely nothing. Ghost ball and back of ball aiming are being used by thousands and thousands of players, some of them at the very pinnacle of the sports of pool and snooker. Even if Duckie would prove to be unable to run 3 balls in a row, would that discredit the aiming methods of all these other players? What about Babe Cranfield himself? He was a world champion (which Stan Shuffet isn't), and he is supposed to have run 768 balls in straight pool practice. Not a whole lot of people have done that, as you may know. Does that prove that the arrow that he developed is superior to CTE/Pro 1? (I'm presuming that is what he used, like I presume Stan Shuffet really uses CTE).

CJ is a world Champion (though not WPA) and uses TOI, Shane Van Boening is a multiple US open champion and uses a stick aiming system, Darren Appleton uses SEE (allegedly), Efren uses God knows what, etc,etc. In the end what does it matter as long as there is no agreement among the champions, why should there be agreement among amateurs? You are basing your faith in CTE on Stan and Landon Shuffets accomplishments, Duckie is basing his faith in the arrow on Babe Cranfields accomplishments. If champions using a particular system should be the main argument, which system do you think would win?

I think the answer is obvious...none! Systems cannot play pool, individual human beings play pool! Each with their own motivations and skills. Too bad we cannot program robots with all the different aiming systems. Then we may at last compare them!

 

[duckie]

There is only one way to see me play and that is playing me in some 14.1.

I don't need to post no stinking video. I know what I can and can not do and have no need to prove anything to anyone.

if you don't like my posting style, tough shit. I ain't in this world to please everyone let alone people I don't know and have no desire to know.

As pointed out, how could Babe Cranfield achieve what he did using the spot on the table idea?

I can tell you why......practice.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

One thing to remember is you cannot use the arrow in a game. Unless it agreed to as your spot.

Watching Duckie run a rack of balls would prove absolutely nothing. Ghost ball and back of ball aiming are being used by thousands and thousands of players, some of them at the very pinnacle of the sports of pool and snooker. Even if Duckie would prove to be unable to run 3 balls in a row, would that discredit the aiming methods of all these other players? What about Babe Cranfield himself? He was a world champion (which Stan Shuffet isn't), and he is supposed to have run 768 balls in straight pool practice. Not a whole lot of people have done that, as you may know. Does that prove that the arrow that he developed is superior to CTE/Pro 1? (I'm presuming that is what he used, like I presume Stan Shuffet really uses CTE).

CJ is a world Champion (though not WPA) and uses TOI, Shane Van Boening is a multiple US open champion and uses a stick aiming system, Darren Appleton uses SEE (allegedly), Efren uses God knows what, etc,etc. In the end what does it matter as long as there is no agreement among the champions, why should there be agreement among amateurs? You are basing your faith in CTE on Stan and Landon Shuffets accomplishments, Duckie is basing his faith in the arrow on Babe Cranfields accomplishments. If champions using a particular system should be the main argument, which system do you think would win?

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

There is only one way to see me play and that is playing me in some 14.1.

I don't need to post no stinking video. I know what I can and can not do and have no need to prove anything to anyone.

if you don't like my posting style, tough shit. I ain't in this world to please everyone let alone people I don't know and have no desire to know.

As pointed out, how could Babe Cranfield achieve what he did using the spot on the table idea?

I can tell you why......practice.

I don't care about your posting style, and I don't care about you. Wouldn't want to play you, either, you sound like a jerk. If I'm gonna play a jerk I'd prefer it was a jerk I can learn something from.

Anyway, you will continue to post as you do, and folks will continue to make fun of you. Or choose to ignore you, as most here have, and as I ordinarily do.

Keep hitting that contact patch, Duck man, just remember to take the arrow off the table if you ever do play one of us. Lol

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Amazing that you equate running racks of balls with pool success! I guess you would then agree that that no one here has been more successful than CJ or that Willie Hoppe was least successful because there has never been a video of him running racks of balls?

I really don't care if the guy can't make a ball in a swimming pool, if he's happy banging them into the rails, I'm happy for him, too.

The issue is that he keeps implying what a great player he is because of his method, but I need proof before I'll believe it will work at all. Personally, I can't imagine that Babe Cranfield ever had to resort to such a silly device, and if he did, how would he ever get enough shots under his belt to make it work automatically for him? It takes quite a little bit of care to set the damn thing up for each shot. I could run a dozen balls before I got the arrow set up perfectly for one shot. At that rate, it'd take fifty years to hit a million balls.

Aside from all that, the Duckster is always attempting to hijack threads and has no sense of proper Internet manners. He has already come out in this thread and said tough shit about that, so there you go - he's completely incorrigible. He doesn't break any rules, so he's here to stay... which is fine by me. Plenty of bigger things to worry about than old Duckie.