What's the rule?

fan-tum

fan-tum

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This came up several times in a large 14.1 tourney. Both players had no shot, were playing little nip shot fouls on cb. Then one player played a deliberate foul by putting tip on cb and pushing cb to a spot. He may or may not have been able to do that with a conventional foul stroke. The tip stayed in contact with cb for a second or more. Is that possibly unsportsmanlike conduct--forfeiture?
 
fan-tum said:
This came up several times in a large 14.1 tourney. Both players had no shot, were playing little nip shot fouls on cb. Then one player played a deliberate foul by putting tip on cb and pushing cb to a spot. He may or may not have been able to do that with a conventional foul stroke. The tip stayed in contact with cb for a second or more. Is that possibly unsportsmanlike conduct--forfeiture?
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What is a "conventional foul stroke"? A foul is a foul, did the player pushing the cue ball have two previous fouls?
 
In 14.1 three consecutive fouls nets you a -15 point penalty. It would apply to both players, in this case, as you described it. Sportsmanship fouls would have to be called by a referee. Sounds like these guys don't know the rules.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
fan-tum said:
This came up several times in a large 14.1 tourney. Both players had no shot, were playing little nip shot fouls on cb. Then one player played a deliberate foul by putting tip on cb and pushing cb to a spot. He may or may not have been able to do that with a conventional foul stroke. The tip stayed in contact with cb for a second or more. Is that possibly unsportsmanlike conduct--forfeiture?
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Yes, as Pat pointed out. You also can't jam the cue ball against the pocket facing to get a corner hook or shoot with the side or butt of your cue. Those are not shots.
 
I'm not entirely sure I've made myself clear. The "stroke" in question is not a stroke, You can have a push shot where there's a definite backstroke and forward stroke of the cue, but here, this push shot has absolutely no backstroke...the player rests the tip on the cb, then gently pushes the cb a very short distance...no more than a half inch. If player had used a conventional stroke..one with a backstroke and forward stroke, he may or may not have been able to get the results. And forget the 3 foul scenario. Immaterial. I still think it's possibly unsportsmanlike.
 
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What you "think" doesn't matter either. Without a ref seeing the "shot" there can be no unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. As far as the 3-foul penalty, you were the one who described multiple deliberate fouls made by both players. That rule would apply whether there was a ref or not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

fan-tum said:
I still think it's possibly unsportsmanlike.
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As I've always understood it, a stroke is the forward motion of the cue through the cue ball. Back stroke isn't considered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Not always. WPA rules say it's unsportsmanlike to "change the position of the balls in play other than by a shot". I don't think a push is a shot by that definition.



pj

chgo
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I get it. I've just not heard of a "conventional foul stroke" in over 50 years of pool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Pushout said:
As I've always understood it, a stroke is the forward motion of the cue through the cue ball. Back stroke isn't considered. ...
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With a single forward motion the cue stick I can take the cue ball from the foot rail, walk it up the table to the head rail, run it over to the corner pocket and jam it against the pocket facing for a corner hook. If I try that in my next one pocket game and claim that "I'm just taking a foul" I'll probably be laughed at and asked to pay for the game and the table time. This technique is about 200 years old. It was called "trailing" back then, and it was frowned upon.

At 14.1 there is a question about how much pushing/manipulating of the cue ball should be allowed. In the old days, some players taking a foul would push the cue ball into the side of the rack for what seemed like a couple of seconds. I think that should not be allowed as part of the game. At what point should such manipulation be banned? Clearly my table-length corner hook should be outlawed as not part of the game.

On a related point, with a single tip-to-ball contact, I have a technique that can move every ball on the table to specified locations. It takes a while, but the tip stays on the cue ball.
 
Bob Jewett said:
With a single forward motion the cue stick I can take the cue ball from the foot rail, walk it up the table to the head rail, run it over to the corner pocket and jam it against the pocket facing for a corner hook. If I try that in my next one pocket game and claim that "I'm just taking a foul" I'll probably be laughed at and asked to pay for the game and the table time. This technique is about 200 years old. It was called "trailing" back then, and it was frowned upon.

At 14.1 there is a question about how much pushing/manipulating of the cue ball should be allowed. In the old days, some players taking a foul would push the cue ball into the side of the rack for what seemed like a couple of seconds. I think that should not be allowed as part of the game. At what point should such manipulation be banned? Clearly my table-length corner hook should be outlawed as not part of the game.

On a related point, with a single tip-to-ball contact, I have a technique that can move every ball on the table to specified locations. It takes a while, but the tip stays on the cue ball.
Click to expand...

As far as the time the tip is on the ball, I agree:wink:
 
Bob Jewett said:
With a single forward motion the cue stick I can take the cue ball from the foot rail, walk it up the table to the head rail, run it over to the corner pocket and jam it against the pocket facing for a corner hook. If I try that in my next one pocket game and claim that "I'm just taking a foul" I'll probably be laughed at and asked to pay for the game and the table time. This technique is about 200 years old. It was called "trailing" back then, and it was frowned upon.

At 14.1 there is a question about how much pushing/manipulating of the cue ball should be allowed. In the old days, some players taking a foul would push the cue ball into the side of the rack for what seemed like a couple of seconds. I think that should not be allowed as part of the game. At what point should such manipulation be banned? Clearly my table-length corner hook should be outlawed as not part of the game.

On a related point, with a single tip-to-ball contact, I have a technique that can move every ball on the table to specified locations. It takes a while, but the tip stays on the cue ball.
Click to expand...

That would be a pretty cool way for a trick shot artist to set up a trickshot if he could do it quick enough.
 
fan-tum said:
I'm not entirely sure I've made myself clear. The "stroke" in question is not a stroke, You can have a push shot where there's a definite backstroke and forward stroke of the cue, but here, this push shot has absolutely no backstroke...the player rests the tip on the cb, then gently pushes the cb a very short distance...no more than a half inch. If player had used a conventional stroke..one with a backstroke and forward stroke, he may or may not have been able to get the results. And forget the 3 foul scenario. Immaterial. I still think it's possibly unsportsmanlike.
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If the tip started on the cue ball, it's a push foul, yes. Unsportsmanlike, I don't know. Why is the three fouls immaterial?
 
Scott: if I'm playing someone and he pushes the cue ball to wedge it against the pocket facing, I'll call it a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct. There may be an argument but I won't let that be forgotten because there is no referee.





Scott Lee said:
What you "think" doesn't matter either. Without a ref seeing the "shot" there can be no unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. As far as the 3-foul penalty, you were the one who described multiple deliberate fouls made by both players. That rule would apply whether there was a ref or not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
 
Pushout said:
If the tip started on the cue ball, it's a push foul, yes. Unsportsmanlike, I don't know. Why is the three fouls immaterial?
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In my original post, I shouldn't have included any mention of any fouls other than the one in question. I actually don't remember what the foul situation was in this game.
 
A related question is about intentional double hits. In a game of nine ball with all the balls on the table, you are left with the cue ball almost touching the eight ball with the nine ball hanging in the pocket. There is no hope of hitting the one or getting to the nine with any normal sort of shot, such as shooting a 5-9 bank combo.

Instead you shoot directly at the 8 which is in the general direction of the 9 and you angle the shot slightly so the cue ball flies into the 9 at 100 MPH -- clearly a double hit.

Should that shot be allowed?
 
Which reminds me of a trick shot that Jack White used to play in exhibitions. It was roughly:

The nine ball is a ball off the middle of the foot rail. The cue ball is frozen to the middle of the head rail. "I'll bet I can cut the nine to the left corner pocket in three shots!" For the first shot, the cue ball is lagged in the general direction of the right corner pocket. For the second shot, the cue ball is shot from its stopping point to a straight-in shot on the nine. The nine is pocketed on the third shot, as advertised.

This is the kind of proposition bet that might make you a big loser.
 
Bob Jewett said:
With a single forward motion the cue stick I can take the cue ball from the foot rail, walk it up the table to the head rail, run it over to the corner pocket and jam it against the pocket facing for a corner hook. If I try that in my next one pocket game and claim that "I'm just taking a foul" I'll probably be laughed at and asked to pay for the game and the table time. This technique is about 200 years old. It was called "trailing" back then, and it was frowned upon.

At 14.1 there is a question about how much pushing/manipulating of the cue ball should be allowed. In the old days, some players taking a foul would push the cue ball into the side of the rack for what seemed like a couple of seconds. I think that should not be allowed as part of the game. At what point should such manipulation be banned? Clearly my table-length corner hook should be outlawed as not part of the game.

On a related point, with a single tip-to-ball contact, I have a technique that can move every ball on the table to specified locations. It takes a while, but the tip stays on the cue ball.
Click to expand...

NICE .... :D and now the other guy can roll the ball around like a hockey puck, big deal, the first guy to do that three times in a row has an additional 15 point foul and re-breaks the balls according to the opening break rules. No more horseshit at that point.

I tell ya .... these (IMO) are not a big deal to concern over. If player A pushes the CB into the stack by keeping his tip in contact for 2 seconds, he has re-arranged the balls.

This gives player B the opportunity to find either a dead shot or a better legal safe. If not ... he just touches the CB.

Player A does that same thing over ..... big deal. This gives player B another opportunity to find something, if not he simply touches the CB. OR !!! he attempts to maneuver a few OBs into a dead kiss somewhere.

Either way player A is now on two ....

This isn't even worth worrying about. This has been the way the game was played for a hundred years. The outcome is to the disadvantage of whomever started the simple 3 shot crap anyway. It doesn't matter enough to fret.

It all comes out in the wash after the last foul.

On the other hand, I can see how it could bother some players. Similar to this kind of move is when the player taps the top of the CB with the side of his tip. (I'm not going to say ferrule.) That even annoys me. :)
 
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