APA regional decision, What's the call?

[hang-the-9]

So if I shoot the 8 Ball in and don't say I won the game you can just spot it and keep playing ??? I didn't declare I won,
it's the same as the Two rated player not declaring she won (or her opponent lost) isn't it ??? If the game isn't over on
a scratch on the 8 ball with out declaring it then how would it be over on a pocketing of the 8 ball, without declaring game won.

Of coarse the game is over when the scratch occurs on the 8, or when legally sinking the 8 ball.

Making the 8 legally is a pretty clear way to win though since that's the object of the game LOL. Since the 8 ball stayed up on the scratch, it's not as clear there. It's like boxing, if you knock a guy out, it's pretty clear who won, if you have to start with figuring out the points at the end of the match as to who hit who how many times, that's a lot tougher.

The issue is that it seems neither of the players knew they won/lost and they continued to play till someone in the crowd said it should be a loss.

 

[tjshaw02]

I disagree that it should have been a loss. Same thing as with a foul, if a player fouls you need to call it then, not a shot after. The other player continued the game, therefore the bad hit is no longer in question.

Replaying the game was a good call, the players needed to know the rules when this happened the first time, beginners or not. You don't go into a major tournament and not know the rules.

I disagree with your point, the game is over the second that cue ball dropped, anything after is completely irrelevant. That TD absolutely made the wrong call IMO.

 

[itsfroze]

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[KRJ]

Not too long ago I was watching an APA match between a couple of low level players. Winner of the match goes to Vegas for the National singles in their level group.
It was a match with two women and one is a skill level three and the other is a skill level two. The three has to win three games and the two goes to two games. The score is hill/hill meaning they each need one more win.

The skill level three is at the table and is on the eight ball but she is hooked and decides to kick at the eight to the pocket that she marked. She does hit the eight ball, doesn't make it, but then scratches.

The level two players picks up the cue ball lines up for a shot on her remaining ball before the eight. She shoots and misses. The level three then says she is taking a bathroom break. While she is gone the level two player is informed by spectators that level three scratched and lost the game.

Understanding that both players are under pressure and probably unsure of what happened. When the level three returned from her break the level two called for the tournament director to sort things out.
When he came over and was informed of what happened, he asked the lever three if she had scratched and she confirmed that indeed scratch. He thought about it for a bit and then made the decision for them to play the game over. Me, not being involved, kept quiet. Was that the right call? Would you have said something?

really dude, you're that desperate that you need to recycle the same story from 2 years ago? You're that bored or boring that you have NO new info to share. Geez, when you start recycling on an internet forum, it just might be time to make a friend or two.

 

[Celophanewrap]

The OP just likes to get everybody riled up once a year with this scenario:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=341255&highlight=vegas

Awwwwww..... C'mon......
it was lots of fun the first time

 

[Dockter]

So if I shoot the 8 Ball in and don't say I won the game you can just spot it and keep playing ??? I didn't declare I won,
it's the same as the Two rated player not declaring she won (or her opponent lost) isn't it ??? If the game isn't over on
a scratch on the 8 ball with out declaring it then how would it be over on a pocketing of the 8 ball, without declaring game won.

Of coarse the game is over when the scratch occurs on the 8, or when legally sinking the 8 ball.

Not the same thing. Sinking the 8 ball isn't a foul. Scratching is a foul.

So along these lines... What if the following happened. I'm down 3-4 in a race to 5 and I'm on the 8. I forget to patch the 8 ball and make it. My opponent doesn't call it on me. We get to the next game and I win. Final score 5-4 me. Then someone tells my opponent that I forgot to patch in game 4. Can my opponent now say "Oh, wait I won because you didn't patch 2 games ago?"

 

[alstl]

Not too long ago I was watching an APA match between a couple of low level players. Winner of the match goes to Vegas for the National singles in their level group.
It was a match with two women and one is a skill level three and the other is a skill level two. The three has to win three games and the two goes to two games. The score is hill/hill meaning they each need one more win.

The skill level three is at the table and is on the eight ball but she is hooked and decides to kick at the eight to the pocket that she marked. She does hit the eight ball, doesn't make it, but then scratches.

The level two players picks up the cue ball lines up for a shot on her remaining ball before the eight. She shoots and misses. The level three then says she is taking a bathroom break. While she is gone the level two player is informed by spectators that level three scratched and lost the game.

Understanding that both players are under pressure and probably unsure of what happened. When the level three returned from her break the level two called for the tournament director to sort things out.
When he came over and was informed of what happened, he asked the lever three if she had scratched and she confirmed that indeed scratch. He thought about it for a bit and then made the decision for them to play the game over. Me, not being involved, kept quiet. Was that the right call? Would you have said something?

Bad call - who won the match?

 

[dabarbr]

The rule seems adequately discussed; I just want to know who ended up winning the replay?

I'm not one to get involved in decision making unless asked to do so. I learned this lesson many years ago. And when I'm asked to do so then I first confirm with both parties if they both agree for me to speak.

In this case I knew both of the players and knew that that there might be some bad feelings if I got involved. I felt that the decision would be an easy call for the TD, especially after the level three acknowledged that she indeed scratched. I was surprised of the call to replay the game. During the replay after a few turns had taken place the level three made the eight ball out of turn and lost the game. Justice prevailed.

 

[WoodyMPW]

Last year the 3 won. Can't wait to read what happens next year.

It is played over and the level three wins.

IDuring the replay after a few turns had taken place the level three made the eight ball out of turn and lost the game. Justice prevailed.

 

[itsfroze]

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[railbird99]

Not the same thing. Sinking the 8 ball isn't a foul. Scratching is a foul.

So along these lines... What if the following happened. I'm down 3-4 in a race to 5 and I'm on the 8. I forget to patch the 8 ball and make it. My opponent doesn't call it on me. We get to the next game and I win. Final score 5-4 me. Then someone tells my opponent that I forgot to patch in game 4. Can my opponent now say "Oh, wait I won because you didn't patch 2 games ago?"

Just because you didn't call your pocket doesn't mean you didn't make the 8-ball where you intended to make it. That means once your opponent concedes the loss and starts another game, he is acknowledging that you made the 8-ball fairly, so he can not take it back later.

In this situation, scratching on the 8 is a loss period, there are no two ways to interpret it. The game is lost once the scratch occurs, and it is not up to either player whether or not that is a loss.

 

[Dockter]

You're right Itsfroze, I misread your post. And yes, by patch I meant mark the pocket. APA here still has to mark the pocket for the 8 ball . The only rules I know about APA here is the only time you have to call the pocket is for the 8 ball. That pretty much turned me off to APA and I can't say I'm sad I don't play it. I already need to know VNEA, WPA and MPA rules to hell with throwing in another completely different set lol.

This all just confuses me because it has been a long time since I've played scratch 8 is a loss. Even though the scratch is a loss, it's still a foul, just a more severe one that results in loss of game but I thought the opponent always had to acknowledge a foul has taken place.

 

[railbird99]

Even though the scratch is a loss, it's still a foul, just a more severe one that results in loss of game but I thought the opponent always had to acknowledge a foul has taken place.

How exactly do you not acknowledge a scratch? The foul was acknowledged, it's just neither player were aware of the consequences of the foul.

 

[Dockter]

How exactly do you not acknowledge a scratch? The foul was acknowledged, it's just neither player were aware of the consequences of the foul.

I guess that's my problem with it. If you are playing and the other player thinks if you scratch you must play the ball from behind the headstring is it your job to inform them that they can put it anywhere? What if you don't know either?

In this case you acknowledge it by saying good game. I'm just used to the rules I play by where the foul has to be acknowledged by both players. I'm not saying anyone is wrong because I don't play APA and you all are way more qualified to answer any rules questions when it comes to APA. It just seems weird to me.

 

[cardiac kid]

How exactly do you not acknowledge a scratch? The foul was acknowledged, it's just neither player were aware of the consequences of the foul.

We need to remember there is a difference between a foul and a scratch. If you foul shooting the at the eight ball, you DO NOT lose the game. If you scratch shooting the eight ball you DO lose the game. The two are not the same. At least as seen through the eyes of the APA.

Not only were the players not aware of the consequences but the TD running the APA Regional was unaware as well. To me, that is by far the greater of the two errors made.

I've seen players scratch, place the cue ball on the table and go sit in their seat. If the incoming player was not paying attention, they might just walk up to the table and shoot without knowing the scratch occurred. It then becomes a sportsmanship issue.

Lyn

 

[railbird99]

I guess that's my problem with it. If you are playing and the other player thinks if you scratch you must play the ball from behind the headstring is it your job to inform them that they can put it anywhere? What if you don't know either?

In this case you acknowledge it by saying good game. I'm just used to the rules I play by where the foul has to be acknowledged by both players. I'm not saying anyone is wrong because I don't play APA and you all are way more qualified to answer any rules questions when it comes to APA. It just seems weird to me.

Where to put the cue ball after a scratch is a fundamentally different situation. If a player takes ball in hand when it's supposed to be behind the head string, and the opponent doesn't catch it, then there is no way to go back in time to rectify the situation. In this case the game is over and done with, so if someone shoots afterwards, it's easy to rectify the situation since the game was over at that point.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think this problem comes under the general heading of scoring mistakes. That's very different from failing to call a foul. I think that if it is agreed that a scoring mistake occurred, the mistake should be corrected. In the case of the unacknowledged loss, the loss would be posted and the match ended.

There is also the general problem of neither player knowing what the rules are and then they are playing a game other than the game being contested. In my darker moods I'd be tempted to disqualify both players for unsportsmanlike ignorance of the rules and have 3rd-4th play off for the championship. But in general I think that if the game has totally run off the rails, rules wise, it needs to be replayed. An example is in the BCAPL rules when both players are so distracted or scatter-brained that they forget who has which group:

3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again. If a game has ended and then the players realize they shot the wrong groups, the game is not replayed and the result stands.​

 

[lorider]

i dont know if the op was bored so he decided to regurgitate an issue he brought up 2 years ago or not hoping to stir shit up which any thread with apa in the title does.:grin-square:

several on were correct in the rule that the s/l 3 lost that rack.i txt my lo for clarification and he said ...yes the 3 lost when she scratched on the 8....no matter if the 2 kept shooting or not.

i looked up the old thread on the link provided and happen to agree with apa operator. it is my understanding that at most regionals the refs are volunteers who are players themselves. ....along with lo's in attendance.

in this situation the ref was wrong but both players being low level and i assume were relatively new to league would not know the proper rule and would not think to question the refs ruling.

if the ref was unsure of the rule he should have gotten an opinion from higher authority but as the saying goes ...hindsight is 20-20. another old saying adequately fits this situation...to err is human and this ref definitely made an error.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I disagree that it should have been a loss. Same thing as with a foul, if a player fouls you need to call it then, not a shot after. The other player continued the game, therefore the bad hit is no longer in question.

Replaying the game was a good call, the players needed to know the rules when this happened the first time, beginners or not. You don't go into a major tournament and not know the rules.

I don't like the rule where if the 8 ball does not drop and you scratch it's a loss. Makes it too easy to win on a hook if someone is on the 8. Not quite like where people play behind the line on fouls and they make you kick at a ball that's also behind the line instead of spotting it, but close to the same idea.

You *really* need to think about your posting in APA threads. YOU DON'T KNOW THE RULES!!! You are walking into a thread without knowing the rules, and then telling people not to enter a tournament without knowing the rules. That seems very hypocritical. This thread is about what the rules *are*, not what you want them to be. Since knowing the rules is important here it is:

The game was over the minute the person scratched on the 8. This is VERY clear in the APA rule book. No matter what anyone likes or thinks it should be, the game was over and the person that shot the 8 loses. Very simple. 100% clear.

If you "disagree with the call", then one of two things at least is true, and probably both. 1) You shouldn't play in the APA. 2) You shouldn't play in any organized competition, because you don't want to play by the rules. I don't know of too many successful legal defenses that are based on what the law "should be", or what laws someone likes.

Terrible call. In many situations I'm open to interpretations, but there is no room for that here. The rules are clear.

Wasn't this exact topic posted a month or so ago? And I may have made a very similar reply.

Anyway, not trying to be a jerk...it is just very frustrating to hear the same types of uninformed and misguided replies to these topics. The APA rules are what they are. They are not perfect, nor are *any* rule sets. Most rules are fairly arbitrary. The APA system is designed to allow for simple implementation of the rules, as well as to be a system that will work for widely varying skill levels to compete together. Overall I think it does an adequate job of this. The *people* that use these rules are often wrong, stupid, ignorant, etc...this is where the vast majority of issues comes from.

KMRUNOUT

 

[cardiac kid]

in this situation the ref was wrong but both players being low level and i assume were relatively new to league would not know the proper rule and would not think to question the refs ruling.

if the ref was unsure of the rule he should have gotten an opinion from higher authority but as the saying goes ...hindsight is 20-20. another old saying adequately fits this situation...to err is human and this ref definitely made an error.

Rider,

This was not a ref's decision. Dabarbr clearly stated the tournament director made the call to replay the rack. If the TD did not know such a fundimental APA rule, it speaks poorly of the APA, the APA league operator for asking someone without APA rule knowledge to determine rule violations and the tournament director for not looking to the APA handbook for the correct ruling.

Lyn